Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Jim]

lol. Whatever

Ie. We are saved by baptism

That is not what I said. Are you really so dense that you think it is?

 

[Jim]

This is no responsive stick to the facts please

It seems pretty clear that you haven't a clue about facts.

 

[Jim]

@Jim,

Kindly take it to the next step.

I have posted the "KEY" verses of the John 3 and the Nicodemus story from the NASB95 verse by verse and have made some comments throughout. Especially vs 3 - 7

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(This verse is a common theme for most Christian believers.)
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
(This verse tells us that right off the bat Nicodemus was confused.... BUT the important thing to note is Jesus did not tell Nick he was misunderstanding what Jesus said.... he moved on)

Not really. He did actually tell Nicodemus that He was not speaking about being born again physically. He stated verse 5 and then followed that with verse 6 which, if properly interpreted says that physical birth is not what he is talking about at all. It is the spirit which must be born again of water and Spirit.

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(This is what we all virtually have memorized from assorted debates.... born of water and the Spirit)

6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

( However this is where most never read to, or remember. Jesus says that which is born of the flesh.
Which will naturally lead Nick to think again from birth because no one has their flesh reborn
Jesus was emphasizing the rebirth from the Spirit, which , at least in talking to Nock did not
involve immersing in external water.)

( Jesus said: born of water and the Spirit then He went immediately to
born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.)
BORN OF THE FLESH (MOM?) IS FLESH (YOU)

( Jesus never said that the flesh had anything to do with being born again

Yes! And that means that being born of water and Spirit has nothing to do with the birth of the flesh. And therefore it cannot, as many want to say, mean that born of water is referring to the amniotic fluid of physical birth. The rebirth, being born again, is all about and only about the spirit. The spirit is reborn, born again, born from above, of water and Spirit.

I would call attention here to the fact that the article "the" preceding Spirit does not appear in the Greek. The Greek doesn't say "born of water and the Spirit"; it says born of water and Spirit. Is that significant? I think so.

7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
11“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

The following is an article that has some ideas that I am sure you will find fault with.... HOWEVER a slightly, maybe radically
view of Nicodemus and water.

I copied it in full here but have supplied the link.

Not expecting you to change your mind but just to consider.

The Confusion Of Nicodemus: Born Again Or Born From Above? - Christians for Truth

There is a long-standing disagreement about the meaning of the phrase “born again” among many Christian theologians, scholars, and Bible commenters which has arisen out of its use in the Gospel of John, specifically when Christ uses it speaking to the Israelite Pharisee, Nicodemus, in John 3:3...

christiansfortruth.com

The Confusion Of Nicodemus: Born Again Or Born From Above?​

There is a long-standing disagreement about the meaning of the phrase “born again” among many Christian theologians, scholars, and Bible commenters which has arisen out of its use in the Gospel of John, specifically when Christ uses it speaking to the Israelite Pharisee, Nicodemus, in John 3:3.

The most common English translation reads,

“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'”

—NASB 1995
However, an alternative literal translation reads,


The literal translation from the Koine Greek phrase “gennaó” (Strong’s 1080, meaning “beget” or “generate from”) — and “anóthen” (Strong’s 509, meaning “from above or from heaven,” or “from the beginning,” or “anew” or “again”) depending on the context.

Whether it means simply "born again" or "born from above" doesn't really change anything. When Jesus said "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" means that it is an action of God, since God is Spirit.

For those who claim that “anóthen” can mean only “from above” are refuted by the very fact that Nicodemus does not understand it that way — he clearly takes it, perhaps disingenuously, to literally mean “again” — that Christ is telling him he must literally be born from his mother’s womb again when he says,


Because he is a Pharisee and lacks spiritual discernment, Christ is fully aware that Nicodemus was going to misunderstand His figurative language and take it literally — which opens the door for Christ to reveal its deeper, non-literal, meaning.

Whether one takes “gennaó anóthen” literally as born again from the womb or literally as “born an Israelite,” you are doomed to miss the import of Christ’s metaphorical language that points us toward a deeper spiritual meaning.

These phrases — “born again” or “born from above” are unique to the New Testament — they appear nowhere in the Old Testament — therefore, their meaning must be understood in the context of the relationship between Jesus Christ and his followers.

Clearly, Nicodemus, as a Pharisee, must have been well-versed in the Old Testament — yet he had never before heard this phrase — “gennaó anóthen” — nor did it occur to him that it meant “born from above” or that it referred to being born of Jacob-Israel or of Abraham.

If the literal meaning of “gennaó anóthen” was “born from above,” then why did the literal-minded Nicodemus take it literally to mean “born again,” as in born again from the same mother?

And if Christ wanted Nicodemus to understand “gennaó anóthen” as “born from above” — meaning “born an Israelite or of Abraham” — He would have said something literal along the lines of:


After all, that’s exactly what Christ said early in his ministry in Matthew 15:24:


But Christ didn’t say that to Nicodemus because He had already established the fact that He came only for Israelites — and there would be no point in telling the Israelite Nicodemus that he had to be an Israelite to follow Him.

Yes, there are some who claim that Nicodemus was not a real Israelite — that he was some sort of crypto-Edomite — but there’s no proof of that, and if Nicodemus were an Edomite, Christ wouldn’t have tried to convert him, nor said to him,


Christ here demonstrates that the literal-minded Pharisees — clinging to the Law — are blinded to Christ’s spiritual teachings — and the necessity of spiritual redemption of Israel through Him. Merely being born an Israelite and attempting to adhere to the Law is not enough to bring about salvation.

And if Christ had told Nicodemus he had to be an Israelite to follow Him, there’s no doubt Nicodemus would have responded the same way the Pharisees had boasted to John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9 before John cut them off:


The Amplified Bible translation provides the meaning of John’s words here:


There are those who claim that this verse is some sort of proof that the Pharisees were not real Israelites, but that interpretation is contradicted by John’s following explanation:


Here John compares the Israelites to trees — and the “root” of the trees is their father Abraham — but John warns the Pharisees that if they do not bear good fruit and become “reformed” or “repentant” through baptism from Christ, they will be cast into the fire.

And if the Pharisees were not true Israelites, then why would John even bother to baptize them? The answer is simply that he wouldn’t have.

The word “reformed” here in Matthew 3:10-11 comes from the Greek “metanoia” (Strong’s 3341) which means “change in the inner man” or “repentance.”

In other words, it’s not the Israelite flesh that we are born into that needs to change, but it’s our inner spirit that needs to be “reborn” — as Nicodemus says, the flesh cannot be reborn.

This prophecy of John the Baptist that the Pharisees would be offered salvation was fulfilled by example when the Pharisee Nicodemus approached Christ who confirmed what John had said — that he must “change the inner man” — and be “born of the Holy Spirit” and confirmed either through the words of Christ or through the symbolism of baptism — or both:


Just as John the Baptist would never have promised the Pharisees that Christ would soon come and offer to baptize them if they were not Israelites in the first place — Christ wouldn’t have bothered to explain to Nicodemus the importance of becoming reborn in the Holy Spirit if he weren’t a literal-minded Israelite Pharisee clinging to the Law of the Old Testament.

The early Church father — John Chrysostom (347 – 407AD) — explained why Nicodemus failed to understand the figurative and ambiguous words of Christ,


So we see with the encounter with Nicodemus that the terms translated as “born again”and “born from above” have dual meanings — it stipulates that you must be an Israelite “from the beginning,” but over and above that, you also must also be reborn or reformed by the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

If merely being born an Israelite — as was Nicodemus — were enough to ensure his salvation, then Christ would never had told him that he also needed to be figuratively — and literally — baptized and reborn of the Spirit through Christ, confirming the words of John the Baptist.

Some Christians object to translating “gennaó anóthen” as “born again” is because of the universalist baggage that “Born Again” Christians have mistakenly added to this teaching.

Christ taught Nicodemus that all Israelites must be “born again” into His Spirit in order to be saved, but many Christians — misled by their pastors — have ignored the first requirement and extended the ability to be “born again” in Christ to anyone and everyone regardless of whether or not they are Israelite or Adamic.

Read our essays on debunking Christian Universalism — along with Charles Weiseman’s book Is Universalism Of God? — to better understand how “Born Again” Christians follow a false doctrine steeped in Marxism.

That “Born Again” Christians have falsely universalized this exchange between Christ and Nicodemus is not the fault of Christ — or the translation — after all, He repeatedly warns His followers many will come in His name preaching false doctrines:


If we insist that “gennaó anóthen” cannot and should not ever be translated as “born again,” we make the entire exchange between Christ and Nicodemus to none effect — because it is essential that Nicodemus mistakenly understands the term to literally mean “born again” so that Christ can reveal its deeper meaning.

We can accept the translation of “gennaó anóthen” as “born again” — but if we do so, we must be careful to reject the false universalist teachings of dispensationalism that virtually all mainstream Christian denominations have heaped upon it.

Christ taught Nicodemus that all Israelites must be baptized and born again in His Spirit from above in order to be saved — and that merely being born an Israelite and circumcised is not sufficient to save them.

Later, in his epistle to the Israelite Philippians, Paul confirms this teaching of Christ to Nicodemus — that merely being born an Israelite — though required to be one of His Sheep — is insufficient for salvation and “resurrection from the dead”:

I think all the discussion about the differences between "born again" and "born from above" only add to the confusion of what Jesus was actually saying to Nicodemus. Again, when Jesus said that one must be "born of water and Spirit" that brings God into the discussion and deals with the "from above" of γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν (gennao anothen).

Moreover, I think Peter answers that question well enough. In 1 Peter 1:3 and 1:23, Peter uses the phrase Greek word ̓ναγεννάω [anagennaō] which from Strong's is:

G313
ἀναγεννάω
anagennaō
an-ag-en-nah'-o
From G303 and G1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again): - beget, (bear) X again.

Peter says there that "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet 1:3).

I think that answers all the folderal about "born again" or "born from above". And that is because the spirit of man comes from God in the first place. God forms the spirit of man in him. That happens at or before physical birth. Personally, I believe it happens at conception.

Now with all of that, I am not certain that I have dealt adequately with all you were hoping for. If not, ask again specifically.

 

[Studyman]

Wanna a real simple answer .
We dont live by the letter . we dont put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE
Jesus summed that one up by saying LET HE who is without sin among YOU cast the first stone .
WHAT WE DO IS
put out of the church those who pratice such things . LET GOD judge them outside .
We dont kill . BUT WE DARN SURE dont keep company with either . WE simply seperate them out .
Many go way too far
and not only will THEY NOT seperate out they try and even say ITS OKAY NOW . no sir . no sir .
You ever wonder why PAUL , when writing to the corinthians
said I SAY this by PERMISSION not of commandment
WHEN HE was saying to the church that if the unbelieving spouse desires to stay let them .
Because in the law they could put away their wives , even to death for such a thing .
HOWEVER paul seeing the chance for the unbeliever to perhaps repent , says what he says .
BUT YES even unbelieving wives or husbands could be put to death in the law .
Read some kings and colossians . this sheep reads its bible .

Thanks for the reply, at least you are answering questions, that's more than a lot of preachers on this forum do. I truly appreciate it. Thank you very much as I long for honest Biblical discussions.

I would just ask, concerning the last part of your post, that I agree that the Christ's Laws that He gave Moses is pretty clear. "Though shall not kill", and even more, "though shall not hate thy brother in thy heart". But I'm not sure how obeying the Christ, "to the letter" would cause me to transgress that commandment. And if we obey the Christ's Laws HE gave to Moses, "to the letter" wouldn't we, as you said, understand that "we don't put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE"? So if I obeyed the Christ's Sayings "to the Letter", I would not kill anyone, as I would know that God is the Judge". It seems we both understand that.

But then in the last part of your post, you implied that the Law the Christ gave to Moses, gave "ME" license to put to death unbelieving wives.

How then, if I'm keeping Christ's Law "to the letter" thou shall not kill", would I interpret Leviticus 20:

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

To mean the Spirit of Christ, through Moses, has given "Paul" a mandate to kill a wife? Or given "ME" a mandate to kill my wife. Or given anyone who these Word's were specifically Written for, a mandate to kill a wife. I believe there is a Spiritual meaning for the Law of Christ, Jesus instructed me to "Live By" these very Words. And I know they were written "For my Sake no doubt".

But where does it give me license to "put to death" anyone. As you have already correctly said, because "God is the Judge". Isn't there a meaning that I am to glean from these Words of the Christ?

I've studied these scriptures for years because I believe they were written for me, as Paul and Jesus instruct, and I did so because I want to understand what they mean for me, and was instruct to study to show myself approved of God. And I have come to understand these Words. And they do not give me license to kill anyone, even if I follow them to the letter, that I can see.

This is the argument you wandered into. These preachers, are preaching that if I don't kill people, I'm guilty of breaking all of Christ's Commandments. But I can not find where the Christ gave me license to kill anyone, through His Laws they reference. And when I ask them to show me, they refuse, and they run and hide behind deceptive words.

I don't prescribe to got.questions or the BBS, so I don't know the Christ or the Father that they promote. What I know, I learned from scriptures.

You said you also read the Bible. So I was hoping maybe you can show me where you believe the Christ gave you or me or Paul or anyone, a license to kill a wife, through the Laws HE gave to Moses.

And perhaps I misunderstood you reply altogether, and you don't believe the teaching of JLB at all.

I really appreciate your time and effort in sharing these things with me so as to have another witness to discern the teaching, being promoted here, "That if I don't kill adulterers or Sinners, then I am guilty of breaking ALL of the Christ's Commandments HE gave to Moses.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Thanks for the reply, at least you are answering questions, that's more than a lot of preachers on this forum do. I truly appreciate it. Thank you very much as I long for honest Biblical discussions.

I would just ask, concerning the last part of your post, that I agree that the Christ's Laws that He gave Moses is pretty clear. "Though shall not kill", and even more, "though shall not hate thy brother in thy heart". But I'm not sure how obeying the Christ, "to the letter" would cause me to transgress that commandment. And if we obey the Christ's Laws HE gave to Moses, "to the letter" wouldn't we, as you said, understand that "we don't put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE"? So if I obeyed the Christ's Sayings "to the Letter", I would not kill anyone, as I would know that God is the Judge". It seems we both understand that.

But then in the last part of your post, you implied that the Law the Christ gave to Moses, gave "ME" license to put to death unbelieving wives.

How then, if I'm keeping Christ's Law "to the letter" thou shall not kill", would I interpret Leviticus 20:

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

To mean the Spirit of Christ, through Moses, has given "Paul" a mandate to kill a wife? Or given "ME" a mandate to kill my wife. Or given anyone who these Word's were specifically Written for, a mandate to kill a wife. I believe there is a Spiritual meaning for the Law of Christ, Jesus instructed me to "Live By" these very Words. And I know they were written "For my Sake no doubt".

But where does it give me license to "put to death" anyone. As you have already correctly said, because "God is the Judge". Isn't there a meaning that I am to glean from these Words of the Christ?

I've studied these scriptures for years because I believe they were written for me, as Paul and Jesus instruct, and I did so because I want to understand what they mean for me, and was instruct to study to show myself approved of God. And I have come to understand these Words. And they do not give me license to kill anyone, even if I follow them to the letter, that I can see.

This is the argument you wandered into. These preachers, are preaching that if I don't kill people, I'm guilty of breaking all of Christ's Commandments. But I can not find where the Christ gave me license to kill anyone, through His Laws they reference. And when I ask them to show me, they refuse, and they run and hide behind deceptive words.

I don't prescribe to got.questions or the BBS, so I don't know the Christ or the Father that they promote. What I know, I learned from scriptures.

You said you also read the Bible. So I was hoping maybe you can show me where you believe the Christ gave you or me or Paul or anyone, a license to kill a wife, through the Laws HE gave to Moses.

And perhaps I misunderstood you reply altogether, and you don't believe the teaching of JLB at all.

I really appreciate your time and effort in sharing these things with me so as to have another witness to discern the teaching, being promoted here, "That if I don't kill adulterers or Sinners, then I am guilty of breaking ALL of the Christ's Commandments HE gave to Moses.

Obeying Christ in all things HE did say .
Remember The law is holy and good . But we do not put any to death . JESUS showed us
the true and living way and that no man can be the judge of the law . GOD IS .
it was but for a time for ISRAEL . IT was because of trangressions that it was added .
But now the Kingdom is heavenly . We dont have to cleanse the land of evil
nor kill any man or put any to death . WE do however seperate them out of the church
who do wicked things . To put away in the law was to put to death . but for us
who walk in the SPIRIT and are in now in the new covenant our to put away
means PUT them out of the church . do not eat with such a one .
The scriptures themselves
are good for us to learn . And what most folks dont realize is
when both peter and paul would speak of the scrips THEY were actually
talking about torah , examples written for our learning
that we too do not lust after the evil things they did .
Most just want to throw away the old scrips . They have no real love
for the TRUTH my friend . They pick and choose what sins to expose and what ones to accept and overlook .
THEY Forgot or never knew
THAT GOD , HE established the new due to HE also wanted TRUE WORSHIP .
For finding fault with , NOT HIS LAW , but with THEM
HE said the days cometh wherein i shall write my laws UPON their hearts .
Folks today act like somehow GOD changed his mind about certain sins
and that CHRIST was sent to set us free TO SIN rather than FROM SIN .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Thanks for the reply, at least you are answering questions, that's more than a lot of preachers on this forum do. I truly appreciate it. Thank you very much as I long for honest Biblical discussions.

I would just ask, concerning the last part of your post, that I agree that the Christ's Laws that He gave Moses is pretty clear. "Though shall not kill", and even more, "though shall not hate thy brother in thy heart". But I'm not sure how obeying the Christ, "to the letter" would cause me to transgress that commandment. And if we obey the Christ's Laws HE gave to Moses, "to the letter" wouldn't we, as you said, understand that "we don't put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE"? So if I obeyed the Christ's Sayings "to the Letter", I would not kill anyone, as I would know that God is the Judge". It seems we both understand that.

But then in the last part of your post, you implied that the Law the Christ gave to Moses, gave "ME" license to put to death unbelieving wives.

How then, if I'm keeping Christ's Law "to the letter" thou shall not kill", would I interpret Leviticus 20:

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

To mean the Spirit of Christ, through Moses, has given "Paul" a mandate to kill a wife? Or given "ME" a mandate to kill my wife. Or given anyone who these Word's were specifically Written for, a mandate to kill a wife. I believe there is a Spiritual meaning for the Law of Christ, Jesus instructed me to "Live By" these very Words. And I know they were written "For my Sake no doubt".

But where does it give me license to "put to death" anyone. As you have already correctly said, because "God is the Judge". Isn't there a meaning that I am to glean from these Words of the Christ?

I've studied these scriptures for years because I believe they were written for me, as Paul and Jesus instruct, and I did so because I want to understand what they mean for me, and was instruct to study to show myself approved of God. And I have come to understand these Words. And they do not give me license to kill anyone, even if I follow them to the letter, that I can see.

This is the argument you wandered into. These preachers, are preaching that if I don't kill people, I'm guilty of breaking all of Christ's Commandments. But I can not find where the Christ gave me license to kill anyone, through His Laws they reference. And when I ask them to show me, they refuse, and they run and hide behind deceptive words.

I don't prescribe to got.questions or the BBS, so I don't know the Christ or the Father that they promote. What I know, I learned from scriptures.

You said you also read the Bible. So I was hoping maybe you can show me where you believe the Christ gave you or me or Paul or anyone, a license to kill a wife, through the Laws HE gave to Moses.

And perhaps I misunderstood you reply altogether, and you don't believe the teaching of JLB at all.

I really appreciate your time and effort in sharing these things with me so as to have another witness to discern the teaching, being promoted here, "That if I don't kill adulterers or Sinners, then I am guilty of breaking ALL of the Christ's Commandments HE gave to Moses.

Loving truth is not in any way living by the letter of the law .
Living by the letter means one is not walking BY FAITH but rather they go about
to seek righteousness BY THE LAW , BY THEIR DEEDS .
Some even holler if one quoates the law to use it for correction . BUT PAUL DID .
look at the things HE said . Not to covet , not to lie , not to murder
no fornicator , no idolatorous man has any inheritance in the Kingdom of GOD .
Not to mention paul himself directly quoate the fifth commandment
to , i think it was the ephesians . Children obey your parents , for this is the FIRST commandment
with promise , that ye may live long on the earth . THAT IS THE ACTUAL FIFTH commandment paul quaoted .
BUT today if one even dares to use the law correctly as to remind or correct
THEY GET CALLED a legalists , a pharisee , living by the letter etc stuff .
And yet all the while look at what else is going on with these people .
THEY come after men like me who even say THE OTHER religoins are false
THAT ONE MUST REPENT TO BELEIVE ON CHRIST . talk about your pharisees . TIS THEM .
they the blind leading the blind . many still love sin and yet dare to lip His name
and even use HIS name and the phrase GOD is love TO PRATICE EVIL , to allow evil
to even create this big ol broad cuymbia road to what they all beleive is GOD . ONLY , IT AINT GOD at all .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Thanks for the reply, at least you are answering questions, that's more than a lot of preachers on this forum do. I truly appreciate it. Thank you very much as I long for honest Biblical discussions.

I would just ask, concerning the last part of your post, that I agree that the Christ's Laws that He gave Moses is pretty clear. "Though shall not kill", and even more, "though shall not hate thy brother in thy heart". But I'm not sure how obeying the Christ, "to the letter" would cause me to transgress that commandment. And if we obey the Christ's Laws HE gave to Moses, "to the letter" wouldn't we, as you said, understand that "we don't put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE"? So if I obeyed the Christ's Sayings "to the Letter", I would not kill anyone, as I would know that God is the Judge". It seems we both understand that.

But then in the last part of your post, you implied that the Law the Christ gave to Moses, gave "ME" license to put to death unbelieving wives.

How then, if I'm keeping Christ's Law "to the letter" thou shall not kill", would I interpret Leviticus 20:

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

To mean the Spirit of Christ, through Moses, has given "Paul" a mandate to kill a wife? Or given "ME" a mandate to kill my wife. Or given anyone who these Word's were specifically Written for, a mandate to kill a wife. I believe there is a Spiritual meaning for the Law of Christ, Jesus instructed me to "Live By" these very Words. And I know they were written "For my Sake no doubt".

But where does it give me license to "put to death" anyone. As you have already correctly said, because "God is the Judge". Isn't there a meaning that I am to glean from these Words of the Christ?

I've studied these scriptures for years because I believe they were written for me, as Paul and Jesus instruct, and I did so because I want to understand what they mean for me, and was instruct to study to show myself approved of God. And I have come to understand these Words. And they do not give me license to kill anyone, even if I follow them to the letter, that I can see.

This is the argument you wandered into. These preachers, are preaching that if I don't kill people, I'm guilty of breaking all of Christ's Commandments. But I can not find where the Christ gave me license to kill anyone, through His Laws they reference. And when I ask them to show me, they refuse, and they run and hide behind deceptive words.

I don't prescribe to got.questions or the BBS, so I don't know the Christ or the Father that they promote. What I know, I learned from scriptures.

You said you also read the Bible. So I was hoping maybe you can show me where you believe the Christ gave you or me or Paul or anyone, a license to kill a wife, through the Laws HE gave to Moses.

And perhaps I misunderstood you reply altogether, and you don't believe the teaching of JLB at all.

I really appreciate your time and effort in sharing these things with me so as to have another witness to discern the teaching, being promoted here, "That if I don't kill adulterers or Sinners, then I am guilty of breaking ALL of the Christ's Commandments HE gave to Moses.

They are dead wrong . but men will do and beleive anything my friend so long as that any thing
gives them license to keep and maintain , to pratice their sin and beleive a lie .
I have been deeply troubled and worried for many for a long time .
As far as also what is written
thou shall not hate your neighbor in your heart
THEY sure do hate theirs . but beleive they love them .
FOr it is written you shall not hate your neighbor in your heart
you shall in any way CORRECT HIM and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
YET they sure do allow sin upon even those who profess to beleive
and now its getting so bad they even allow the false religoins to remain in UNBELIEF
talk about some heavey deceptoin going on with many . ITS not getting better
ITS BEEN getting worse and so much the more specially as of late .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

This sheep sits at the table of NO DEAL , NO COMPROMISE .
What do i mean by that . If it omits a teaching of JESUS , NO DEAL
no COMPROMISE . give the devil a millimeter and he shall become the ruler .
This sheep corrects any and all leaven and error .
Some continually say tone it down , cant ya just make a little compromise .
NO DEAL . IF in any way it omits the truth , NO DEAL . i pray all will come to the same fully persauded mind .
WHEN is this church age gonna realize , YA DONT make deals with darkness and leaven . you correct and expose it .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

To the trenches and man the walls . The great battle for the souls of men has raged
throughout the centuries and now in this last hour the darkness is peaking to take captive
all to a lie to NOW UNIFY them as one people into an all out most rebellious hatred against CHRIST and his saints .
fear not a one of them . their breath is in their nostrils , they are but men
WE HAVE THE GLORIOUS KING JESUS with us . And no matter what we suffer at the hands of men
HE will be with us through it all , as HE has always been with his sheep since the beginning .
SOUND the trumpets and stand at the ready to defend and to contend for the true faith
To teach and to instruct of all things HE did teach and later the apostels did .
THE LORD IS OUR GOD , THE SPIRIT IS OUR GUIDE and the BIBLE be our book . Strap all armour on
for the enemy takes no time off to decieve and we shall take no time off to proclaim THE TRUTH .

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

You are also convinced that God's Laws are "Worthless Jewish Traditions", "Rudiments of this world", a "Yoke of Bondage" and "Beggarly Elements", "many" being no different than Pagan religious festivals, that were only given to men born of a certain DNA, and born in a certain time in history.

You, sir, are bearing false accusations concerning myself and others here, with your vain repetitious sayings.

The Apostles, Jesus, nor any of the Law and Prophets promote such a religious philosophy.

Strawman alert! Not one person on this forum has ever comes close of saying what you vainly, and falsely repeat, that I have said, and some others you have accuse of doing the same. You desperately keep trying to build this strawman and fighting him, you are not fighting me, nor anyone person that I can see.

It's easy to blindly accuse Red. But exactly what is it that the Apostles taught in Acts 13 that I don't believe?

Since you asked, I could easily point out many truths in any part of the word of God that you do not teach properly, that would be an easy task for me. Since you asked, here's one:

Acts 13:39​

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

You are asking a solider of Christ, that did not just put the armour on yesterday, but truly about to take it off, because of my age, for the time is near to do so.

Now let look at Acts 13:39 ~ In this wonderful scripture is a gold mine of hidden treasure that most just glean right over.

1) First, do we hear what Paul is declaring concerning free justification from all things? I think very few do, in comparison to the thousands of millions that have read this scripture, since it was first penned. "

"And by him all that believe are justified" ~Justification is by Jesus Christ's obedience and faith, not ours! This probably breaks your heart, but it is the testimony of the word of God.

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

2) "And by him all that believe are justified" ~ "are" is a form of the verb "to be." So, our faith is an evidence of our free justification, not the means thereof! We do not believe in order to be justified, we believe because we HAVE BEEN justified by Christ's work of redemption, a huge difference.....the different is the TRUE gospel of Christ and the gospel peddled by men like you @Studyman.

3) "from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." The law of Moses in all of its forms in which it was given, offered NO justification through obeying its laws unless there was perfect obedience in ALL POINTS of the law. That's why we have another covenant, one that is not on man keeping the law, since God found fault with man being unable to do so, we have another covenant supported by two infallible acts of God: his oath and his promises of grace, to the seed of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:7​

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

The fault was not with God's law, but man's ability, strength to keep the law in order to enter into life eternal. So, why put a yoke of bondage on men's neck by telling them they must do this, that, and the other, BEFORE they can enter eternal life. Eternal life was secured for us by Jesus Christ, and one's faith and desire to live according to the word of God is the evidence that they have already been justified form ALL THINGS.

Enough said on Acts 13. Be careful what you ask for!

Btw, way, you never even said ONE WORD about Jude 1:1 you danced all around it, as usual. Now, if you like I can come back and address ALL of Jude, pretty sure there's much in there that goes against your way of thinking, well, actually I know there are.

 

[ProDeo]

@Studyman

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

The law of Moses was about an eye for and eye, the new covenant is about grace.

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

You just slandered the Apostles who also called
themselves Synergists (συνεργοι or συνεργουντος) in Mark 16:20 and 1 Cor 3:9. Well done!

In Mark 16:20, the Greek words του κυριου συνεργουντος translate to Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers and in 1 Cor 3:9 the Greek words συνεργοι θεου translate to God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers.

(Mark 16:20) εκεινοι δε εξελθοντες εκηρυξαν πανταχου του κυριου συνεργουντος (Lord’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) και τον λογον βεβαιουντος δια των επακολουθουντων σημειων σημειων αμην

(1 Cor 3:9) θεου γαρ εσμεν συνεργοι θεου (God’s Synergists/Fellow Workers) γεωργιον θεου οικοδομη εστε

It is used in those two places in a totally different sense in which you teach, not even close, and any should be able to see this. You believe man works for his salvation, they preached against such a doctrine. Why are going to the Greek language to prove a point?

Mark 16:20​

“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”

Not a word about they themselves working to secure their salvation and the new birth of sinners, which is what we are discussing when we speak of synergistic we are speaking of concerning regeneration.

We believe that the Lord must work through us as we teach/preach/witness to others to help them in their practical salvation, growing in grace and knowledge, yet we have not one thing to do with the salvation of sinners from sin and condemnation, that's God's work alone that he must perform.

If your presuppositions are true then you've just gone and denied Adam and Eve of their salvation. They were both not born of a mother so you've effectively thrown Adam & Eve out of the Kingdom of God. Well done! I'll let you announce your "hermeneutics" insights to Adam and Eve.

I did not say one HAD to be born of water BEFORE they are born again, that's you adding to what I have said. John the Baptist was born again BEFORE he was born of his mother's womb. All I said was.... the born of water is our fleshly birth, nothing more! Learn to read what other believe, it will save you of embarrassment.

1 Cor 2:14-16 is being addressed to and is talking about born again believers. You need to prove that Nichodemus was already a born again believer for your presuppositions to be true. Until then.... I hope you find it in your heart to allow Adam and Eve to enter the Kingdom of God.

That's easy to do ~ and I have already. I'll find my post that I made a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

The CoC group would eat you alive with statements of yours that I quoted.

Really? Do you know of any, if yes, then send them my way, I'm not going any where. I've debated many of them over the years, so far not one of them have eaten me alive, not even close. Btw, if they can, then why cannot you do the same?

 

[Marvelloustime]

To the trenches and man the walls . The great battle for the souls of men has raged
throughout the centuries and now in this last hour the darkness is peaking to take captive
all to a lie to NOW UNIFY them as one people into an all out most rebellious hatred against CHRIST and his saints .
fear not a one of them . their breath is in their nostrils , they are but men
WE HAVE THE GLORIOUS KING JESUS with us . And no matter what we suffer at the hands of men
HE will be with us through it all , as HE has always been with his sheep since the beginning .
SOUND the trumpets and stand at the ready to defend and to contend for the true faith
To teach and to instruct of all things HE did teach and later the apostels did .
THE LORD IS OUR GOD , THE SPIRIT IS OUR GUIDE and the BIBLE be our book . Strap all armour on
for the enemy takes no time off to decieve and we shall take no time off to proclaim THE TRUTH .

@Tothalordbeallglory
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Marvelloustime]

This sheep sits at the table of NO DEAL , NO COMPROMISE .
What do i mean by that . If it omits a teaching of JESUS , NO DEAL
no COMPROMISE . give the devil a millimeter and he shall become the ruler .
This sheep corrects any and all leaven and error .
Some continually say tone it down , cant ya just make a little compromise .
NO DEAL . IF in any way it omits the truth , NO DEAL . i pray all will come to the same fully persauded mind .
WHEN is this church age gonna realize , YA DONT make deals with darkness and leaven . you correct and expose it .

@Tothalordbeallglory
“Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Marvelloustime]

They are dead wrong . but men will do and beleive anything my friend so long as that any thing
gives them license to keep and maintain , to pratice their sin and beleive a lie .
I have been deeply troubled and worried for many for a long time .
As far as also what is written
thou shall not hate your neighbor in your heart
THEY sure do hate theirs . but beleive they love them .
FOr it is written you shall not hate your neighbor in your heart
you shall in any way CORRECT HIM and NOT ALLOW sin upon him .
YET they sure do allow sin upon even those who profess to beleive
and now its getting so bad they even allow the false religoins to remain in UNBELIEF
talk about some heavey deceptoin going on with many . ITS not getting better
ITS BEEN getting worse and so much the more specially as of late .

@Tothalordbeallglory
“Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Marvelloustime]

Abraham saw MY day and HE REJOICED .
now lets look real closely at what the name given by abraham was called .
JEHOVAH JIREH . in the mountain of the LORD it shall be seen and provided .
Abraham had the gospel preached to him . AND IN THY SEEED shall all nations be blessed .
HE knew . He died in faith as did many others . the prophets , they prophesied of THE CHRIST as well .
many died in faith not having recieved the promise . BUT FAITH THEY DID HAVE in HE who was to come .
And now we have recieved the promise
but we too await the promise OF HIS RETURN . many since the days of the apostles
have waited for the very event THIS GENERATION IS GONNA SEE my friend .
And JESUS shall bring those who sleep in HIM with him and we who are alive and have remained
shall be caught up in the clouds forever with THE KING who saved us .
Tick tock . tic , tic tic tic , TIMES RUNNING OUT .
WHEN the SON OF MAN ARISES and SHUTS the DOOR
ALL OUTSIDE WILL WAIL . But all inside shall rejoice WITH HE WHO SAVED US .

@Tothalordbeallglory
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

You, sir, are bearing false accusations concerning myself and others here, with your vain repetitious sayings.

Strawman alert! Not one person on this forum has ever comes close of saying what you vainly, and falsely repeat, that I have said, and some others you have accuse of doing the same. You desperately keep trying to build this strawman and fighting him, you are not fighting me, nor anyone person that I can see.

I won't go back and post your own words where you preach about how God's Laws are only for Israel Red, you, I and the Christ know you said them, what else would I want. My flesh seeks retribution, but the Spirit in my hopes you might reconsider and repent.

I won't go back and post your own words where you preach the Beggarly Elements Paul speaks of, are God's Laws Red, you, I and the Christ knows you said them, what else would I want. My flesh seeks retribution, but the Spirit in me hopes you might consider and repent.

Since you asked, I could easily point out many truths in any part of the word of God that you do not teach properly, that would be an easy task for me. Since you asked, here's one:

Acts 13:39​

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

I believe this 100%. When a man sinned in Moses time and became unrighteous, how was he cleansed of his unrighteousness? Shall I not Believe in the Christ's Words spoken to Moses?

Lev. 4: 1 And "the LORD" spake unto Moses, saying, (This is the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, Yes?)

27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, "for his sin" which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Is this not speaking to the " Law of Moses" from which the flesh could not be justified?

And if not, what other Law are they speaking to, wherein forgiveness was provided for, "Till the Seed should Come??

 

[mailmandan]

 

[Doug Brents]

And what is believing Him about salvation?

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Now balance that statement against Matt 7:21: "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

If you believe “faith alone in Christ alone” is salvation can only be found through faith in Christ and can never be found or furthered by our good deeds or the works of the OT law – then I’m all in.

I believe 100% that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. There is no other name/person through whom we can be saved. But I do not support the "faith alone" part of what you said, because the only place in Scripture where the term "faith alone" or "faith only" is found, it is found in the negative (James 2:24).

Bottom line: When it comes to trying to figure out how faith and obedience intersect, it seems to me that we can’t improve upon the Apostle John’s simple test to determine if we actually know God.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

I see no reason to redefine or tweak his words – after all, they are scripture, and all of our theological ruminations are not.

I’m not suggesting that we somehow work our way into God’s favor or earn our salvation. I am suggesting that genuine faith, by definition, includes a pattern of obedience.

I agree. I do not believe we can work our way into God's favor or earn salvation in any way.

But I believe Scripture is clear that the actions of faith must begin BEFORE salvation is received. Repentance comes before salvation because it is done "in order that" sins may be forgiven. Verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord comes before salvation because it "results in" salvation being received. Baptism is the point at which we receive salvation because it is what saves us (1 Pet 3:21), it is the point at which we die to sin (Rom 6:1-4), it is the point at which we are clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God (Gal 3:26-27), it is the point at which our sin is cut from us and we are united to Jesus' death and resurrection (Col 2:11-14).

Obedience is not a stairway to heaven – or the final steps that complete what Jesus started. But according to the Apostle John, it is the one test that distinguishes between genuine faith and counterfeit faith.