I have not said water baptism is required to be saved. I have said that God promised to save the repentant believer in baptism. Now I realize that you, apparently, cannot understand or comprehend the difference. But that is because you are logically challenged in your reasoning.
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I would hope not since that would mean everyone was as logically and rationally limited in reasoning as you. I don't believe they are.
synergy
Active Member
It is true that 1Cor 2 is talking about regenerated people. There's no doubt about that.
What I'm saying is that only the Apostles laid down the foundation which is Christ. If that's what you mean by direct revelation then I agree. But we all still have a hand in building on that foundation which God approves of.
synergy
Active Member
So what does water equate to and what does the "born of water" portion of the verse mean to you?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I would point to the following passages
John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)
EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)
eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)
Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)
2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)
Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Born again (literally a second time)
Born of water 1st birth or born of flesh
Born of spirit second birth.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Wanna a real simple answer .
We dont live by the letter . we dont put to death anyone . GOD IS THE JUDGE
Jesus summed that one up by saying LET HE who is without sin among YOU cast the first stone .
WHAT WE DO IS
put out of the church those who pratice such things . LET GOD judge them outside .
We dont kill . BUT WE DARN SURE dont keep company with either . WE simply seperate them out .
Many go way too far
and not only will THEY NOT seperate out they try and even say ITS OKAY NOW . no sir . no sir .
You ever wonder why PAUL , when writing to the corinthians
said I SAY this by PERMISSION not of commandment
WHEN HE was saying to the church that if the unbelieving spouse desires to stay let them .
Because in the law they could put away their wives , even to death for such a thing .
HOWEVER paul seeing the chance for the unbeliever to perhaps repent , says what he says .
BUT YES even unbelieving wives or husbands could be put to death in the law .
Read some kings and colossians . this sheep reads its bible .
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
what i see many do is try and justify sin .
and so they come up with the argument to those who actually do correct
SO you are under the law now , YOU have TO PUT them to death .
WHAT A LIE . its an excuse to cover for sinful behavoir and to allow trangression to remain .
We dont kill anyone . BUT WE DONT MAKE OUR BED with trangressors either . WE REBUKE
sharply those who sin before all . WE ARE TO CORRECT anyone in sin . people do as they do my friend
but do so to make a covering that wont be covering any sin .
JESUS came to create a people UNTO GOD WHO actually WORSHIP GOD the way HE ALWAYS DESIRED
to be worshipped . and disobediance IS TRANRESSION , SIN is rebellion .
yet many seem to twist many things to let sin remain and they will falsely accuse
those who correct of being a pharisee , a legalistic , or whatever .
His name is Jesus; YHWH, I AM
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
ever wonder why paul even said THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST that was in THEM DID TESTIFY .
The HOLY GOD is HIS WORD , HE IS HIS SPIRIT .
I shun the alll inclusive interfaith lie to hades , its doctrine is foul dung
its father is satan , its mother is the harlot and its love child is anti christ .
Folks got no idea how long men have been at work to transform
Christendom from within
and not only christendom but the false religoins too .
THEY GONNA MERGE THEM all as one under what all will beleive IS LOVE and OF GOD .
I am gonna expose this wicked satanic anti christ lie if it costs me my life doing so .
mailmandan
Active Member
We should always beware of those who proclaim a different Jesus, a different spirit and a different gospel. (2 Corinthians 11:4)
It was Peter, but yes and Amen!
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11
- He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:,
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10
synergy
Active Member
LOL! Did you even notice that the verses are talking about being "buried" or "baptism into death"? Since when does the Holy Spirit "bury" people? I don't know about you but the Holy Spirit cleansed me of my sins and gave me life, not a burial. It's my water baptism that symbolically buried me and signified the new life that I now have starting when I first believed.
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
The baptism by which we are all saved is when we are baptized into Christ by the Spirit.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
This is when we become born again by the Spirit. This is the work of the Spirit.
In this baptism the Spirit is the Baptizer.
This occurs when we believe. Context of John 3:5-6
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
again
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12
Water baptism comes after we believe and become saved; born again, regenerated
Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
Acts 8:36-37
In water baptism man is the baptizer.
The other baptism is the baptism with the Holy Spirit whereby the Baptizer is Jesus Christ.
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
Acts 1:4-5
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mark 1:8
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Yes and who can baptize me into the death of Christ which happened 2000 years ago
Who can baptize me into Christ but God himself
Who can baptize me into his body again but Gid himself
Your pastor baptized you in water (I assume it was your pastor). Mine did to. But only God can take me back and baptize me in himself just like promised
When did he cleanse your sin? When he baptized you into union of his death?
Yes
God did that. Not your pastor or mine they do not have that power.
MTMattie
Active Member
@Jim,
Kindly take it to the next step.
I have posted the "KEY" verses of the John 3 and the Nicodemus story from the NASB95 verse by verse and have made some comments throughout. Especially vs 3 - 7
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
(This verse is a common theme for most Christian believers.)
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
(This verse tells us that right off the bat Nicodemus was confused.... BUT the important thing to note is Jesus did not tell Nick he was misunderstanding what Jesus said.... he moved on)
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(This is what we all virtually have memorized from assorted debates.... born of water and the Spirit)
6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
( However this is where most never read to, or remember. Jesus says that which is born of the flesh.
Which will naturally lead Nick to think again from birth because no one has their flesh reborn
Jesus was emphasizing the rebirth from the Spirit, which , at least in talking to Nock did not
involve immersing in external water.)
( Jesus said: born of water and the Spirit then He went immediately to
born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.)
BORN OF THE FLESH (MOM?) IS FLESH (YOU)
( Jesus never said that the flesh had anything to do with being born again
7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?
11“Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
The following is an article that has some ideas that I am sure you will find fault with.... HOWEVER a slightly, maybe radically
view of Nicodemus and water.
I copied it in full here but have supplied the link.
Not expecting you to change your mind but just to consider.
The Confusion Of Nicodemus: Born Again Or Born From Above? - Christians for Truth
There is a long-standing disagreement about the meaning of the phrase “born again” among many Christian theologians, scholars, and Bible commenters which has arisen out of its use in the Gospel of John, specifically when Christ uses it speaking to the Israelite Pharisee, Nicodemus, in John 3:3...
christiansfortruth.com
The Confusion Of Nicodemus: Born Again Or Born From Above?
There is a long-standing disagreement about the meaning of the phrase “born again” among many Christian theologians, scholars, and Bible commenters which has arisen out of its use in the Gospel of John, specifically when Christ uses it speaking to the Israelite Pharisee, Nicodemus, in John 3:3.The most common English translation reads,
“Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.'”
—NASB 1995
However, an alternative literal translation reads,
The literal translation from the Koine Greek phrase “gennaó” (Strong’s 1080, meaning “beget” or “generate from”) — and “anóthen” (Strong’s 509, meaning “from above or from heaven,” or “from the beginning,” or “anew” or “again”) depending on the context.
For those who claim that “anóthen” can mean only “from above” are refuted by the very fact that Nicodemus does not understand it that way — he clearly takes it, perhaps disingenuously, to literally mean “again” — that Christ is telling him he must literally be born from his mother’s womb again when he says,
Because he is a Pharisee and lacks spiritual discernment, Christ is fully aware that Nicodemus was going to misunderstand His figurative language and take it literally — which opens the door for Christ to reveal its deeper, non-literal, meaning.
Whether one takes “gennaó anóthen” literally as born again from the womb or literally as “born an Israelite,” you are doomed to miss the import of Christ’s metaphorical language that points us toward a deeper spiritual meaning.
These phrases — “born again” or “born from above” are unique to the New Testament — they appear nowhere in the Old Testament — therefore, their meaning must be understood in the context of the relationship between Jesus Christ and his followers.
Clearly, Nicodemus, as a Pharisee, must have been well-versed in the Old Testament — yet he had never before heard this phrase — “gennaó anóthen” — nor did it occur to him that it meant “born from above” or that it referred to being born of Jacob-Israel or of Abraham.
If the literal meaning of “gennaó anóthen” was “born from above,” then why did the literal-minded Nicodemus take it literally to mean “born again,” as in born again from the same mother?
And if Christ wanted Nicodemus to understand “gennaó anóthen” as “born from above” — meaning “born an Israelite or of Abraham” — He would have said something literal along the lines of:
After all, that’s exactly what Christ said early in his ministry in Matthew 15:24:
But Christ didn’t say that to Nicodemus because He had already established the fact that He came only for Israelites — and there would be no point in telling the Israelite Nicodemus that he had to be an Israelite to follow Him.
Yes, there are some who claim that Nicodemus was not a real Israelite — that he was some sort of crypto-Edomite — but there’s no proof of that, and if Nicodemus were an Edomite, Christ wouldn’t have tried to convert him, nor said to him,
Christ here demonstrates that the literal-minded Pharisees — clinging to the Law — are blinded to Christ’s spiritual teachings — and the necessity of spiritual redemption of Israel through Him. Merely being born an Israelite and attempting to adhere to the Law is not enough to bring about salvation.
And if Christ had told Nicodemus he had to be an Israelite to follow Him, there’s no doubt Nicodemus would have responded the same way the Pharisees had boasted to John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9 before John cut them off:
The Amplified Bible translation provides the meaning of John’s words here:
There are those who claim that this verse is some sort of proof that the Pharisees were not real Israelites, but that interpretation is contradicted by John’s following explanation:
Here John compares the Israelites to trees — and the “root” of the trees is their father Abraham — but John warns the Pharisees that if they do not bear good fruit and become “reformed” or “repentant” through baptism from Christ, they will be cast into the fire.
And if the Pharisees were not true Israelites, then why would John even bother to baptize them? The answer is simply that he wouldn’t have.
The word “reformed” here in Matthew 3:10-11 comes from the Greek “metanoia” (Strong’s 3341) which means “change in the inner man” or “repentance.”
In other words, it’s not the Israelite flesh that we are born into that needs to change, but it’s our inner spirit that needs to be “reborn” — as Nicodemus says, the flesh cannot be reborn.
This prophecy of John the Baptist that the Pharisees would be offered salvation was fulfilled by example when the Pharisee Nicodemus approached Christ who confirmed what John had said — that he must “change the inner man” — and be “born of the Holy Spirit” and confirmed either through the words of Christ or through the symbolism of baptism — or both:
Just as John the Baptist would never have promised the Pharisees that Christ would soon come and offer to baptize them if they were not Israelites in the first place — Christ wouldn’t have bothered to explain to Nicodemus the importance of becoming reborn in the Holy Spirit if he weren’t a literal-minded Israelite Pharisee clinging to the Law of the Old Testament.
The early Church father — John Chrysostom (347 – 407AD) — explained why Nicodemus failed to understand the figurative and ambiguous words of Christ,
So we see with the encounter with Nicodemus that the terms translated as “born again”and “born from above” have dual meanings — it stipulates that you must be an Israelite “from the beginning,” but over and above that, you also must also be reborn or reformed by the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.
If merely being born an Israelite — as was Nicodemus — were enough to ensure his salvation, then Christ would never had told him that he also needed to be figuratively — and literally — baptized and reborn of the Spirit through Christ, confirming the words of John the Baptist.
Some Christians object to translating “gennaó anóthen” as “born again” is because of the universalist baggage that “Born Again” Christians have mistakenly added to this teaching.
Christ taught Nicodemus that all Israelites must be “born again” into His Spirit in order to be saved, but many Christians — misled by their pastors — have ignored the first requirement and extended the ability to be “born again” in Christ to anyone and everyone regardless of whether or not they are Israelite or Adamic.
Read our essays on debunking Christian Universalism — along with Charles Weiseman’s book Is Universalism Of God? — to better understand how “Born Again” Christians follow a false doctrine steeped in Marxism.
That “Born Again” Christians have falsely universalized this exchange between Christ and Nicodemus is not the fault of Christ — or the translation — after all, He repeatedly warns His followers many will come in His name preaching false doctrines:
If we insist that “gennaó anóthen” cannot and should not ever be translated as “born again,” we make the entire exchange between Christ and Nicodemus to none effect — because it is essential that Nicodemus mistakenly understands the term to literally mean “born again” so that Christ can reveal its deeper meaning.
We can accept the translation of “gennaó anóthen” as “born again” — but if we do so, we must be careful to reject the false universalist teachings of dispensationalism that virtually all mainstream Christian denominations have heaped upon it.
Christ taught Nicodemus that all Israelites must be baptized and born again in His Spirit from above in order to be saved — and that merely being born an Israelite and circumcised is not sufficient to save them.
Later, in his epistle to the Israelite Philippians, Paul confirms this teaching of Christ to Nicodemus — that merely being born an Israelite — though required to be one of His Sheep — is insufficient for salvation and “resurrection from the dead”:
To what end? What has any of those passages to do with what I posted?
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