Ex-Free Willer

[praise_yeshua]

All depends what you mean by centre I guess...

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation! It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Whether or not we are central to HIS existence, the redemption of the sinful elect humans are obvious the centre of the fulfillment of HIS wedding plans for marrying HIS creation!

Only after the sinful saints are made holy and the eternally evil reprobate are sent to damnation can the wedding of the LAMB to His Church proceed. Seems that their holiness is pretty central after all.

Not I was attempting to present.

The idea that an Eternal God has only operated within His ONLY creation for 7 to 10 thousands is utterly preposterous to me.

 

[Behold]

No.

1. How Lucifer is the first.

Lucifer was in Heaven, before He was cast out, and down to earth.
Adam and Eve, had not been created Yet.

2. How Adam is under Lucifer.

You are the servant to whom you obey..

For example... A Calvinist is a servant of Calvin.
This is why all they can do is think about Calvin, Teach about Calvin, and lie for Calvin.

Adam chose to rebel against God... and this caused Him to lose spiritual union with God.
He DISOBEYED God.
This "fall", of Adam, is literally Adam bowing before Satan who became this.. regarding Adam.

"You are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL......and the Lusts of your Father, you shall do"..

And He just completed the first "lust", when He ate the apple, because he lusted to KNOW, and to know, he had to eat the apple, in disobedience.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lucifer was in Heaven, before He was cast out, and down to earth.
Adam and Eve, had not been created Yet.

That is before. Not first. Big difference.

You are the servant to whom you obey..

Adam didn't obey Lucifer. Eve did. In fact, Adam listened to Eve because he loved Eve and didn't want to lose her. Which, in and of itself, is a allegory to the "Bride of Christ". In fact, it the single greatest allegory to the "Bride of Christ".

For example... A Calvinist is a servant of Calvin.
This is why all they can do is think about Calvin, Teach about Calvin, and lie for Calvin.

Not entirely. I disagree with Calvin and I believe he was far too young to write what he wrote. He was also very prideful to have never corrected himself. I have meet people that are confused by the topic and make bad choices. I have also meet some that love the teaching because it makes them feel better about themselves. Everyone wants to believe they are special. Which is represented in many forms of various theologies

Adam chose to rebel against God... and this caused Him to lose spiritual union with God.
He DISOBEYED God.
This "fall", of Adam, is literally Adam bowing before Satan who became this.. regarding Adam.

I don't believe this nor do I believe you can actually make this argument from the Scriptures. Adam bowed to Eve.

"You are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL......and the Lusts of your Father, you shall do"..

And He just completed the first "lust", when He ate the apple, because he lusted to KNOW, and to know, he had to eat the apple, in disobedience.

Some are. Do you know the parable of the wheat and the tares. If you want to make such an argument with a human being, then you need to look at the offspring of Adam and Eve. Satan sowed a tare in the heart of Cain.

From the beginning, you find choices. Diverging paths.

 

[atpollard]

augustines boogie man.

I should start a poll to see who brought more heresies into the church augustine or pelagius. My gut tells me augustine has many more.

You should probably start with a poll of who read Augustine or Pelagius so you know how many people can participate in your poll without just guessing. (I would have to guess.)

 

[civic]

You should probably start with a poll of who read Augustine or Pelagius so you know how many people can participate in your poll without just guessing. (I would have to guess.)

Agreed

 

[Behold]

That is before. Not first. Big difference.

"inquity" was first found in Lucifer, in Heaven.
Adam was not created yet.

Adam didn't obey Lucifer. Eve did. In fact, Adam listened to Eve because he loved Eve and didn't want to lose her.

God didnt hold Adam accountable to Eve's rebellion.
Adam paid for his OWN rebellion, as "spiritual death". and literal Physical death.

Everyone wants to believe they are special. Which is represented in many forms of various theologies

Calvin teaches his "truth" and those who are owned by it, teach it as "bible".

His entire theology is a warped idea of God's Salvation, or God's righteousness, taught as the error of Calvinism.

Paul teaches that Satan's ministers come as teachers and preachers of RIGHTEOUSNESS., but its not according to God's righteousness...

Calvin's theology is HIS idea of God's Righteousness, not God's.

God is not a Calvinist.

From the beginning, you find choices. Diverging paths.

Yes.

There are many paths to God, (Religion)..... but only one WAY, is TRUE.... = John 14:6 = CHRISTIANITY.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"inquity" was first found in Lucifer, in Heaven.
Adam was not created yet.

Genesis 1:1 wasn't the beginning of God. The Scriptures are a record of mankind. Not a record of everything that God has ever created. You have a very poor view of the Eternal in your theology.

God didnt hold Adam accountable to Eve's rebellion.
Adam paid for his OWN rebellion, as "spiritual death". and literal Physical death.

What if I say.......Jesus didn't deserve to die and neither did Adam. Adam partook of sin for Eve. It is why Adam appealed to the very fact that God had given her to him. It wasn't an excuse. It was a valid argument.

You're making claims that have no root in the Scriptures. Just man's interpretation. Prove to me that I'm wrong.

Calvin teaches his "truth" and those who are owned by it, teach it as "bible".

His entire theology is a warped idea of God's Salvation, or God's righteousness, taught as the error of Calvinism.

Paul teaches that Satan's ministers come as teachers and preachers of RIGHTEOUSNESS., but its not according to God's righteousness...

Calvin's theology is HIS idea of God's Righteousness, not God's.

God is not a Calvinist.



Yes.

There are many paths to God, (Religion)..... but only one WAY, is TRUE.... = John 14:6 = CHRISTIANITY.

I'm not defending Calvin. However, there are many equally mistaken. Be care to not become what you do not like in others.

It is my experience that it is easy to see the faults of others and very hard to see our own.

 

[Behold]

Genesis 1:1 wasn't the beginning of God.

I didnt say anything about that verse.

I posted that Lucifer was in Heaven, before Adam was on Earth.
Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, before Adam was created.

The Scriptures are a record of mankind. Not a record of everything that God has ever created. You have a very poor view of the Eternal in your theology.

Really?
So who created all the animals in Genesis 1:24?

What if I say.......Jesus didn't deserve to die and neither did Adam.

Jesus chose to die for us all...., because Adam chose to sin that caused the fall of us all.

I'm not defending Calvin. However, there are many equally mistaken. Be care to not become what you do not like in others.

I only teach Pauline Theology.

It is my experience that it is easy to see the faults of others and very hard to see our own.

In my experience, ive discovered....that there are a lot of people who believe they are Christians, who are not.
And a lot of these "teach the bible" and "start denominations", and "write commentaries" and post Youtube Videos. and create "online Christian forums", and "online Christian websites".

The Devil is very busy.

These are : Luke 11:35

 

[praise_yeshua]

I didnt say anything about that verse.

I posted that Lucifer was in Heaven, before Adam was on Earth.
Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, before Adam was created.

Can you at least attempt to deal with what I've actually said?

At best, the Scriptures only teach that Lucifer sinned. They do not teach that Lucifer was the first to sin. Please pay attention to what I actually said.

Really?
So who created all the animals in Genesis 1:24?

Geesh. God made the animals FOR MAN.... They have always been under Adam's dominion.

Jesus chose to die for us all...., because Adam chose to sin that caused the fall of us all.

Jesus sure did. I praise His name for it. However, Jesus was proposed before Adam was ever created.

I must admit, it is difficult to abandon what you believe. It is. I was there when I was much younger. I decided to forget what I had learned and embrace the Truth no matter where it lead me. I've tried to do this throughout my life.

You're arguing within the context of Calvin vs Arminianus. I'm not limited by those arguments. I reject both.

Both systems teach a reactive purpose from God. I don't believe this is true. God took proactive action before this world was ever formed. God's purpose in humanity was to create man in His own image. Adam was not the target. The new creature in Christ Jesus was the target.

If you can accept this, then what I'm saying will make sense to you.

I only teach Pauline Theology.



In my experience, ive discovered....that there are a lot of people who believe they are Christians, who are not.
And a lot of these "teach the bible" and "start denominations", and "write commentaries" and post Youtube Videos. and create "online Christian forums", and "online Christian websites".

The Devil is very busy.

These are : Luke 11:35

Hyper Dispensationalism. Paul didn't teach you what you think he taught you.

 

[Behold]

Can you at least attempt to deal with what I've actually said?

I have in every post.

Its not my job to learn it for you,
Only to teach you.

At best, the Scriptures only teach that Lucifer sinned. They do not teach that Lucifer was the first to sin. Please pay attention to what I actually said.

The Scriptures teach WHERE Lucifer was when He sinned.

Why dont you open a bible and find out. ?

Geesh. God made the animals FOR MAN.... They have always been under Adam's dominion.

Yes, God made them.
That's what i said.

You're arguing within the context of Calvin vs Arminianus. I'm not limited by those arguments. I reject both.

Im neither.
We were having a discussion about when sin began.
It began in Lucifer, when He was in Heaven.

Hyper Dispensationalism. Paul didn't teach you what you think he taught you.

You are confused.
I not a hyper-dispensationalist.

I teach Pauline Theology.
Only.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have in every post.

Its not my job to learn it for you,
Only to teach you.



The Scriptures teach WHERE Lucifer was when He sinned.

Why dont you open a bible and find out. ?

Lucifer wasn't in the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1. Do you really believe this nonsense? I don't need to learn from you. I can study the Scriptures myself.

Yes, God made them.
That's what i said.




Im neither.
We were having a discussion about when sin began.
It began in Lucifer, when He was in Heaven.



You are confused.
I not a hyper-dispensationalist.

I teach Pauline Theology.
Only.

Almost everyone I've ever meet that says "I teach Pauline Theology" is a dispensationalist. Other things you've said make me believe your hold the "hyper" flavor yourself.

 

[Behold]

Lucifer wasn't in the heaven mentioned in Genesis 1.

Ive not said that Lucifer was in heaven in Genesis 1.
You said that. @praise_yeshua

I said that Lucifer was in HEAVEN, when "iniquity was found IN HIM".

That is before Adam was created.

Do you really believe this nonsense? I don't need to learn from you. I can study the Scriptures myself.

If you know where Sin began you'd agree.
So, as you dont, you do need to learn.

Almost everyone I've ever meet that says "I teach Pauline Theology" is a dispensationalist.

THe Pope wears a lot of white, and a funny hat.

Calvinism is a cancer on the Body of Christ...

So....What else do you have to offer us?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ive not said that Lucifer was in heaven in Genesis 1.
You said that. @praise_yeshua

Quote me. I did not.

I said that Lucifer was in HEAVEN, when "iniquity was found IN HIM".

That is before Adam was created.

I have repeatedly said there are no Scriptures that indicate that Lucifer was the FIRST to sin. I have said that Lucifer sinned before Adam. Pay attention.

If you know where Sin began you'd agree.
So, as you dont, you do need to learn.

Arrogant nonsense. You're not my teacher. Stop pretending you are.

THe Pope wears a lot of white, and a funny hat.

Calvinism is a cancer on the Body of Christ...

So....What else do you have to offer us?

So you are dispensationalist. You just don't like the "Hyper" title. Half truths and nonsense from you. Why?

Calvinism can be destructive. So can many doctrines.

 

[Behold]

I have repeatedly said there are no Scriptures that indicate that Lucifer was the FIRST to sin.

Ezekiel 28:15

Arrogant nonsense. You're not my teacher. Stop pretending you are.

If you ask me "where does sin begin"... If you ask me another question... Im now your teacher.

So you are dispensationalist. You just don't like the "Hyper" title. Half truths and nonsense from you. Why?

You seem to need to falsely accuse.

Also, you can't post any "half truths" or "nonsense" regarding my quotes to you, as they dont exist.
So, stop being dishonest..

Calvinism can be destructive. So can many doctrines.

Calvinism is Satanic... .so yes, its harmful., as are other "doctrines of Devils".

 

[TedT]

You still sin. So what nature do you have?

No simplicity for me. I was sometimes Calvinist for some verses and sometimes Arminian for others at the same time but now I'm pretty well free of both unless the contradictions with GOD's nature are resolved.

The understanding of our sanctification and recurring sinfulness is still somewhat flexible for me, sigh.

At this time I ask people to consider with me that Hebrews 12:5-11 in speaking of the harsh chastisements for HIS legitimate children must be referring to sins that are chastised causing repentance then repeated in slightly harsher terms as the yo-yo of repentance and sinning continues.

How can this be ? given current theological acceptance of the meaning of sin nature, it is confusing.

For the last few years I've considered sanctification to act something like this:
1. Before rebirth we are enslaved to sin, our free will abrogated by our sinfulness until we are so self disgusted or fearful of the future like that (called simply 'opening our eyes to our sin') that we ask for mercy with a conviction that indicates our rebirth.

2. After rebirth our free will is restored, we are no longer enslaved or addicted to evil but we remember the pleasures and profits of sin so we enter the time of doing what we don't want to do and not doing the things we know we should do, the time of rehabilitative chastisement.

But then, how are we protected from becoming enslaved to sin all over again with each sinful choice?? One possibility is the guilt we feel when we sin as reborn. When we first chose to sin, our feelings moved us to scorn GOD and to rebuke HIM for messing with our lives and not leaving us to just enjoy sin. After rebirth our guilt is turned in on ourselves, praising and thanking HIM for our new attitude about our sin and for HIS promise of continued mercy, an attitude that saves us from becoming enslaved to sinfulness all over again.

Maybe...

Something must or we would die in our sins all over again and then be reborn all over again - over and over every time we sinned which is just not how I read biblical instruction and exhortation.

As reborn we re-choose sin and repent by our free will which repentance we cannot do before rebirth and which the reprobate cannot do at all due to the enslaving addictive power of sin which constrains our free will. IF sin before rebirth does NOT constrain our free will, then why talk about our enslavement to sin at all? It is essentially a meaningless term and those not yet reborn go through the exact same training in righteousness by harsh discipline that the reborn children go through but without a rebirth?

What then of rebirth?

Looking forward to replies....

 

[TedT]

I don't believe this nor do I believe you can actually make this argument from the Scriptures. Adam bowed to Eve.

Yes...

 

[praise_yeshua]

No simplicity for me. I was sometimes Calvinist for some verses and sometimes Arminian for others at the same time but now I'm pretty well free of both unless the contradictions with GOD's nature are resolved.

The understanding of our sanctification and recurring sinfulness is still somewhat flexible for me, sigh.

At this time I ask people to consider with me that Hebrews 12:5-11 in speaking of the harsh chastisements for HIS legitimate children must be referring to sins that are chastised causing repentance then repeated in slightly harsher terms as the yo-yo of repentance and sining continues.

How can this be given current theological acceptance of the meaning of sin nature, it is confusing.

For the last few years I've considered sanctification to act something like this:
1. Before rebirth we are enslaved to sin, our free will abrogated by our sinfulness until we are so self disgusted or fearful of the future like that (called simply 'opening our eyes to our sin') that we ask for mercy with a conviction that leads to our rebirth.

2. After rebirth our free will is restored, we are no longer enslaved or addicted to evil but we remember the pleasures and profits of sin so we enter the time of doing what we don't want to do and not doing the things we know we should do.

But then, how are we protected from becoming enslaved to sin all over again with each sinful choice?? One possibility is the guilt we feel when we sin as reborn. When we first chose to sin, our feelings moved us to scorn GOD and to rebuke HIM for messing with our lives and not leaving us to just enjoy sin. After rebirth our guilt is turned in on ourselves, praising and thanking HIM for our new attitude about our sin and for HIS promise of continued mercy, an attitude that saves us from becoming enslaved to sinfulness all over again.

Maybe...

Something must or we would die in our sins all over again and then be reborn all over again - over and over every time we sinned which is just not how I read biblical instruction and exhortation.

As reborn we re-choose sin and repent by our free will which repentance we cannot do before rebirth and which the reprobate cannot do at all due to the enslaving addictive power of sin which constrains our free will. IF sin before rebirth does NOT constrain our free will, then why talk about our enslavement to sin at all? It is essentially a meaningless term and those not yet reborn go through the exact same training in righteousness by harsh discipline that the reborn children go through but without a rebirth?

What then of rebirth?

Looking forward to replies....

God has not freed us entirely from our circumstances. We know this to be true. Which contradicts what many believe about our "nature".

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

I'll try to simplify what I'm trying to say.

1. Adam nor any of His descendents were ever impeccable.
2. Eve sinned (Deceived) and Adam willfully sinned so as to not lose Eve.
3. When Paul appealed to the sin history of man, he is actually appealing to how man, over time, turned from God and lost any good influence and directly from family lineages of good faithful men. For example, Abraham taught his sons. Even the sons of Keturah. "They have gone out of the way" indicates repeated apostasy among mankind. Yet, there remained an remnant.
4. We have the ability to change the lives of those around us. Through love and the Gospel.... even at times..... resisting evil to keep it out of our communities as best we can... so as to not allow complete and total destruction all around us.
5. Our nature is both good and evil. We have a disposition for sin. However, through Christ, we have the disposition to do good.
6. Nature in Ephesians 2:3 is more than just predisposition. I has the complexity of the rest of our existence. God is still good to sinners and sinners are often good to one another.

This fight that exists between Calvinism and Arminianism is often nothing more than a distraction. I argue points in the discussion but I moved on past it a long time ago.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ezekiel 28:15

Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.

I don't know why you can't understand this. Lucifer sinned before Adam. However, Eze 28:15 does not establish that Lucifer was the very first "being" to sin. We don't know that he was. We just know that he did. We know it happened before Adam.

It is extraordinarily arrogant to believe we know everything that has every happened in the existence of God through the Scriptures. Sure. We know tons... but we don't know everything. We need to stop pretending we are "it".

You seem to need to falsely accuse.

Also, you can't post any "half truths" or "nonsense" regarding my quotes to you, as they dont exist.
So, stop being dishonest..

I'm not. State clearly that you're not a dispensationalist.

Calvinism is Satanic... .so yes, its harmful., as are other "doctrines of Devils".

You might believe some of them yourself. God forbid you see the sin of others in yourself... .It just might be an revelation for you to show Empathy toward your fellow man.

 

[TomL]

There are lots of ex-Calvinists in this forum, so I figure I'll disclose that I am an ex-free-willer. In fact, one of the turning points was that I tried to write a treatise on salvation by free will choice. I was inspired to do so after reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. But I kept hitting dead ends with my reasoning, so I never finished it.

I struggled with a lot of things early in my Christian life (starting in my 30s). Among other things, being an animal lover, I struggled with God choosing to sacrifice animals. One day, I woke up and realized, He is God. He created the animals. He can do whatever He wants with His creation. Who am I to say His methods were bad or good?

That thought took hold, and a few years later that I started to see in Scripture what some call Calvinism and others call Doctrines of Grace or Reformed Doctrine. (I've never read Calvin apart from a couple times checking to see if he really wrote what some people claim, and those were other topics than what people call Calvinism.)

At that point, I was already committed to not question God's methods, because His ways are so far above our ways and beyond our understanding. So I read Scripture and took it for what it says, not imposing my idea of what God's motives should be according to anyone's personal image of God. In the end, Scripture alone convinced me of the Doctrines of Grace, Reformed Theology, Calvinism.

I wonder how you could have missed the fact there is no grace for most of mankind in the so-called doctrines of grace