Ex-Free Willer

[praise_yeshua]

Free Will makes us all "peccable"

Not in and of itself.

The goal is to willing choose God. That is a GOOD choice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

YES!...but
applying the doctrine of our free will to sinners makes the words of Jesus to be jibberish when He claimed all sinners are enslaved to sin, loving their sin more than the truth etc etc. Both the doctrine of our inability to save ourselves because of our enslavement and the doctrine that our lives are predetermined according to scripture also deny that sinners have no free will.

I am more than willing to discuss these details. I disagree that what I said causes the words of Jesus to become "jibberish". Quote some of His words. We can go from there. Maybe, list your "#1".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sin was first found in Lucifer, who was cast out, and it came with Him.

His sin of Rebellion, is "iniquity that was found IN Him"..

I don't how we can possibly know this for certain. It is conjecture. I personally believe we are not the center of the God's existence.

This is the sin nature....

When Adam rebelled, and ate the Apple.... his rebellion, in him, became this.....

Jesus said..>"you are of your FATHER.... the DEVIL.... and the Lusts of YOUR FATHER, you will do"...

That's every unbeliever....that is the "adamic" nature, or the sin nature.

When we are born again, this "old man of sin".... is "crucified with Christ"., and we become a "new Creation"... "In Christ"..

I know the "talking points" well.

In my view, you're making connections that do not exist. Please link the words of Jesus concerning the devil you mentioned above to the sin nature. That is a claim without evidence.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Whosoever will let him come freely.

And I could post another 1000 more than you

He who has the most verses wins in your theology ?

If thats the case its a loosing battle for you since election and predestination are seldom used in the N.T.

Whosoever will
Whosoever believes
Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller

In other words, whosoever does not imply free choice. It just tells you which ones. The one who wills, wills because he was given by the Father. The one who believes, believes because he was given by the Father.

And, by the way, it's losing, not loosing. Pet peeve of mine.

 

[Whosoever]

That me!


Passages Containing the Word “Whosoever”

Chafer observes that “the word whosoever is used at least 110 times in the New Testament, and always with the unrestricted meaning.” This being the case, the following have been selected as examples:

John 3:16: “… That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Acts 2:21: “… Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Acts 10:43: “… Through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:13: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Revelation 22:17: “… And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

Who's there

 

[TedT]

I disagree that what I said causes the words of Jesus to become "jibberish".

Of course I know the interpretations that deny my thesis that sin overrides our free will but hey, everyone has an interpretation!

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. servant - not quite a slave??? An interpretation to avoid the meaning of slavery as addiction, perhaps? If we claim to have a free will while enslaved to sin, how is this statement not akin to jibberish?

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. Like a man free of coercion yet enslaved to sin at the same time???

Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. And when a sinner is not controlled by righteousness, he sinnnns by his nature!!!!

 

[TedT]

I personally believe we are not the center of the God's existence.

All depends what you mean by centre I guess...

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation! It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus.

Whether or not we are central to HIS existence, the redemption of the sinful elect humans are obvious the centre of the fulfillment of HIS wedding plans for marrying HIS creation!

Only after the sinful saints are made holy and the eternally evil reprobate are sent to damnation can the wedding of the LAMB to His Church proceed. Seems that their holiness is pretty central after all.

 

[TedT]

Whosoever will
Whosoever believes

These whosoevers are true and written to prove to those who can will or believe, ie the elect who can repent, that their friends the reprobate cannot will nor come to Him nor believe by their very nature...setting these elect free from their fight with GOD that those condemned already should be saved (or at least be given the chance to be saved) which forced the postponement of the judgement, Matt 13:27-30.

Whosoever leaves out thosewhonever, who cannot believe, John 3:18 ...it does NOT include them !!! These who never have believed are condemned already so the elect who can be saved must be those who have believed already and became HIS sheep who then chose to sin and became His sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom.

 

[Behold]

I don't how we can possibly know this for certain. It is conjecture. I personally believe we are not the center of the God's existence.



I know the "talking points" well.

In my view, you're making connections that do not exist. Please link the words of Jesus concerning the devil you mentioned above to the sin nature. That is a claim without evidence.

How can we know that sin began with Lucifer, and not with Adam?

Well, its because "iniquity" (sin) was "found in Lucifer" when He was in Heaven and that was before God created Adam and Eve.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

These whosoevers are true and written to prove to those who can will or believe, ie the elect who can repent, that their friends the reprobate cannot will nor come to Him nor believe by their very nature...setting these elect free from their fight with GOD that those condemned already should be saved (or at least be given the chance to be saved) which forced the postponement of the judgement, Matt 13:27-30.

Whosoever leaves out thosewhonever, who cannot believe, John 3:18 ...it does NOT include them !!! These who never have believed are condemned already so the elect who can be saved must be those who have believed already and became HIS sheep who then chose to sin and became His sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom.

Agree. Like I said, whosoever does not imply free-will choice. "Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller" doesn't mean you can change your height just because it says "whosoever". It just identifies a certain set of people.

 

[Behold]

Agree. Like I said, whosoever does not imply free-will choice. "Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller" doesn't mean you can change your height just because it says "whosoever". It just identifies a certain set of people.

Who caused Adam to bite the apple?

Be careful, or John Calvinism, will have you believing that God Caused Adam to break God's own word.- command.

Now you can teach that lie... (reader) .... but its not a good idea to walk in the steps of a ABSOLUTE Heretic who created that God abusing Doctrine.

 

[civic]

Agree. Like I said, whosoever does not imply free-will choice. "Whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller" doesn't mean you can change your height just because it says "whosoever". It just identifies a certain set of people.

Gods love is universal which includes all mankind not just some,

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Who caused Adam to bite the apple?

Be careful, or John Calvinism, will have you believing that God Caused Adam to break God's own word.- command.

Now you can teach that lie... (reader) .... but its not a good idea to walk in the steps of a ABSOLUTE Heretic who created that God abusing Doctrine.

We are not the same as Adam was before he chose to bite the apple. We inherited his condition after he disobeyed.

God did not cause Adam to disobey, but he ordained it to be so.

Ask yourself this: Did God not have the power to prohibit Satan from being in the garden? Did God not have the power to create Adam and Eve immune to temptation? Did God not have the power to NOT put that tree in the garden?

Some of you will say this means God is the author of sin. But ordaining sin to occur is not the same as authoring it. When the angel came to the Lord and suggested he (the angel) give false prophecy, God approved of the angel's plans. God did not lie, but he ordained that the lie take place.

 

[Behold]

We are not the same as Adam was before he chose to bite the apple.

The born again are absolutely restored to the exact Spiritual Union with God that Adam had before he rebelled and lost it.

Jesus, who is the 2nd Adam, is the restoration, because Jesus removed the SIN that was separating us from God's Spirit, and now the believer is born again, sinless, as a "new creation in Christ".... by the Holy Spirit, = into the Spirit of God, .... and we now exist as Adam 1, before He fell.
= "ONE with God".


What is eternally different?

We have the Blood of Jesus that keeps us forgiven.
Adam 1 didnt.

 

[atpollard]

Also the “I “ in tulip is unloving since it’s by coercion and it force.

When God grants you a new heart that is now capable of love (because God first loved you), is that "coercion" and "force"?
[You did not ask for it or grant prior permission, the Creator simply exercised His right as your Creator to make an upgrade.]

 

[civic]

When God grants you a new heart that is now capable of love (because God first loved you), is that "coercion" and "force"?
[You did not ask for it or grant prior permission, the Creator simply exercised His right as your Creator to make an upgrade.]

Not if you have no choice in the matter and did not ask for it.

 

[atpollard]

Free will is universal, regarding all of humanity.... saved or lost.

Semi-Pelagianism ... denial of the Fallen Nature from the Adamic Curse.

 

[civic]

Semi-Pelagianism ... denial of the Fallen Nature from the Adamic Curse.

augustines boogie man.

I should start a poll to see who brought more heresies into the church augustine or pelagius. My gut tells me augustine has many more.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How can we know that sin began with Lucifer, and not with Adam?

Well, its because "iniquity" (sin) was "found in Lucifer" when He was in Heaven and that was before God created Adam and Eve.

No.

1. How Lucifer is the first.
2. How Adam is under Lucifer.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course I know the interpretations that deny my thesis that sin overrides our free will but hey, everyone has an interpretation!

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. servant - not quite a slave??? An interpretation to avoid the meaning of slavery as addiction, perhaps? If we claim to have a free will while enslaved to sin, how is this statement not akin to jibberish?

Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters: Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. Like a man free of coercion yet enslaved to sin at the same time???

Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. And when a sinner is not controlled by righteousness, he sinnnns by his nature!!!!

You still sin. So what nature do you have?