John 3:16 The Most Abused Passage by Free-Willers

[civic]

Just speaking truth. You can't handle the truth.

One has to know the truth, tulip is not the truth.

 

[TomL]

Cut and paste proof texting is to be dismissed. Each should be dealt with one at a time so audience and context may me considered.

John12 refers back to the old covenant and Gods covenant people it's written in the past tense.

LOL

It is scripture

You cannot dismiss it

BTW it is rather irrelevant that John 12:40 is past tense

Did the ability of man change with time?

Did a hardened unregenerate Jew have ability which gentiles do not have today

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

Wait, I thought you guys believed that God does not want anyone (all without exception) to perish? That God wants everyone without exception to be saved.

 

[TomL]

Wait, I thought you guys believed that God does not want anyone (all without exception) to perish? That God wants everyone without exception to be saved.

He does desires that

But remember Christ had a mission to go to the cross, so God hardened rebellious Jews in their unbelief so as to accomplish the crucifixion

 

[Presby02]

LOL

It is scripture

You cannot dismiss it

BTW it is rather irrelevant that John 12:40 is past tense

Did the ability of man change with time?

Did a hardened unregenerate Jew have ability which gentiles do not have today

It is scripture. True. That's not the issue. The issue is your errant understanding.

I don't know.

I don't know. That's really irrelevant. It was addressed to Jews under tge old covenant. You have no justification to applying the text to the new covenant.

 

[Presby02]

One has to know the truth, tulip is not the truth.

Your half right. That's a improvement.

 

[civic]

Your half right. That's an improvement.

lol

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

He does desires that

But remember Christ had a mission to go to the cross, so God hardened rebellious Jews in their unbelief so as to accomplish the crucifixion

Pretty sure Acts occurs after the crucifixion.

 

[TibiasDad]

Free-willers insist that "whosoever believes" proves that "anyone who chooses of their own free will to believe".

I've dealt elsewhere with the fallacy of having the ability to "choose to believe".

Here I'll show that the free-willer view of "whosoever" is a logical fallacy. If I say "whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller", can you choose of your own free will to be 6 feet tall or taller? No, of course not. So the word "whosoever" has no definitive relationship with free will.

The error of your thinking is an apple to oranges comparison. Believing is an act to be done, while height is something you are!

Scripture does not say whoever is X (elect, chosen, predestined, etc), but rather whoever does X (believe, trust, repents, confesses, etc).

Your argument does not align with the requirements of scripture, to act, rather than to be. It is therefore, faulty and unsuccessful in its application.

Doug

 

[Rockson]

The error of your thinking is an apple to oranges comparison. Believing is an act to be done, while height is something you are!

Scripture does not say whoever is X (elect, chosen, predestined, etc), but rather whoever does X (believe, trust, repents, confesses, etc).

Your argument does not align with the requirements of scripture, to act, rather than to be. It is therefore, faulty and unsuccessful in its application.

Doug

Yeah I think that other poster was way too short in how they measured it out.

 

[TomL]

Pretty sure Acts occurs after the crucifixion.

What has that to do with the verses I posted?

In Acts 28 they closed their eyes and they grew hard

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.





The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith

 

[TomL]

It is scripture. True. That's not the issue. The issue is your errant understanding.

I don't know.

I don't know. That's really irrelevant. It was addressed to Jews under tge old covenant. You have no justification to applying the text to the new covenant.

You failed to prove any errant understanding and the verse is clearly contrary to your theology

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

What would have happened had he not blinded them (highlighted in red)

 

[Rockson]

It is scripture. True. That's not the issue. The issue is your errant understanding.

I don't know.

I don't know. That's really irrelevant. It was addressed to Jews under tge old covenant. You have no justification to applying the text to the new covenant.

Oh I see. So what we're seeing here now is a new Calvinist doctrine just being born. Old Testament Jews were not born totally depraved. So your theology bounces around like jello wherever convenient.

 

[Presby02]

You failed to prove any errant understanding and the verse is clearly contrary to your theology

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

What would have happened had he not blinded them (highlighted in red)

And you fail to deal with the context in which this is written.

 

[TomL]

And you fail to deal with the context in which this is written.

Empty words as you ignore the verse

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief?

 

[Presby02]

Empty words as you ignore the verse

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief?

Nope. What i don't ignore is it's context, abd historical setting and audience.

 

[TomL]

Nope. What i don't ignore is it's context, abd historical setting and audience.

You failed to address the questions

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief?

Neither context nor audience or historical setting removes the difficulty for your theology

Which is why you do not say have they affect the meaning of the passage or answer the questions asked

 

[Presby02]

You failed to address the questions

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief?

Neither context nor audience or historical setting removes the difficulty for your theology

Which is why you do not say have they affect the meaning of the passage or answer the questions asked

And you failed to address audience, historical setting and context. Not uncommon among Provisionist

 

[Rockson]

And you failed to address audience, historical setting and context. Not uncommon among Provisionist

Hold it! I just checked! He did that just fine. Go back and give it some deeper thought.

 

[TomL]

And you failed to address audience, historical setting and context. Not uncommon among Provisionist

You ignore the verse which is common for Calvinists when scripture contradicts their theology