civic
Well-known member
Just more misrepresenting of our beliefs since Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all recognized as the 3 Monotheistic world religions.
Even in John 1, Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
101G
Well-known member
Mistake #1. if he existed "I AM" is not I AM the Father, yes or No?
Mistake #2. did he pray "TO" the Father of Pray the Father. the only time he pray "to" the Father was in intercessory for someone else. check it it out and see if 101G is correct about "pray the Father" vs "Pray to the Father", and that's only in intercessory.
Mistake #3. is Not the Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit? if you don't KNOW ask..... (smile).
you explained your ERROR.... (smile).
101G.
101G
Well-known member
ERROR Doug, listen, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
Doug, he was "ALONE", and by himself. Alone means, "having no one else present" if there is no one else present, then there is no one to Go through.
see Doug, by... himself in old English means "through", himself ..... it is him who made all things, (no help). that's why John said in 1:1c, "and thew Word was God". JESUS is God, the Lord, who without flesh in the beginning made all things.
there is no way around Isaiah 44:24.
hope that help
101G.
Jesus emphatically declared that He existed as "I Am" even before Abraham existed. This totally annihilates unitarianism.
If you once again run away from this fact then you will once again show that you are more than willing to sacrifice the Bible on the altar of your unitarian god in order to appease his heresies.
......................................................
No Other god/God - Deut. 32:39
Translators have different interpretations here. The usual trinitarian translation has God (YHWH) saying something like this:
“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.” - KJV.
Thus they say that the Word cannot be called 'a god' since God (YHWH) has no god beside Him. [Please notice the difference in meaning between "beside" and "besides" (which many translators use here.]
Some trinitarian translators have rendered it this way:
“See ye that I alone am, and there is no other God besides me: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” - Douay.
“Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.” - NKJV.
“Don’t you understand? I am the only God; there are no others. ….” - CEV.
“Now, see that I, and only I, am God! There is no other God! ….” - ERV.
“See, I am the only God. There are no others.” - God’s Word.
“See now that I alone am He; there is no God but Me.” - Holman Christian Standard Bible.
In these renderings there is no other God, but that would not rule out the fact that other ‘gods’ may be with Him.
…………………….
Even if you choose the “no god with [or besides] me” interpretation, it is not necessarily a trinitarian ‘proof.’ It has to do with the context of God’s statement here. Here it is in context:
32:15“But Jeshurun [Israel] grew fat and kicked— You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—
Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation. 16 “They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 “They sacrificed to demons who were not God, To gods whom they have not known, New gods who came lately, Whom your fathers did not dread. 18 “You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth. ….
21 “They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation, ….
39 “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.” - NASB.
……………
God (YHWH) here has been consistently speaking of Israel’s love affair with false gods. Obviously none of these are acceptable to God - none of these are “with” Him nor are anything compared to the True God. So it is probable that the verse in question is speaking of false gods only.
This does not mean that God does not call God-appointed persons (including men and angels)‘gods.’
The majority, if not all, recognized scholars (mostly trinitarian, of course) admit this. These include scholars from the early centuries of Christendom until now. Some of those I have found are:
"In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1.
And, in the footnote for Ps. 45:6, this trinitarian study Bible tells us: “In this psalm, which praises the [Israelite] king ..., it is not unthinkable that he was called ‘god’ as a title of honor (cf. Isa. 9:6).” - The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, tells us:
“The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps. 82 is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. In context of the Ps. the men in question have failed to do this.... On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’.” - Vol. 3, p. 187.
The highly respected (and highly trinitarian) W. E. Vine tells us:
“The word [theos, ‘god’ or ‘God’] is used of Divinely appointed judges in Israel, as representing God in His authority, John 10:34” - p. 491, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament says for John 10:34-36:
"Is it not written in your law. In Psa. 82. I said, Ye are gods? It was there addressed to judges. Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God? Sanctified. Set apart." -
And Barnes’ Notes tells us in commenting on John 10:34, 35:
The scripture cannot be broken. See Matthew 5:19. The authority of the Scripture is final; it cannot be set aside. The meaning is,
‘If, therefore, the Scripture uses the word "god" as applied to magistrates, it settles the question that it is right to apply the term to those in office and authority. If applied to them, it may be to others in similar offices. It can not, therefore, be blasphemy to use this word as applicable to a personage so much more exalted than mere magistrates as the Messiah.’ -Barnes' Notes on the New Testament
Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:
“65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,
“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”
The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:
Elohim [‘gods’]: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”
The trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6:
“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:
1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.
(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik)
And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF study note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF study); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
So, it is clear that Deut. 32:39 cannot be understood to say that there are no persons called 'god' with him for angels were called gods.
However, none of those 'gods' the Israelites had recently taken up (false gods) were with Him.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Yea, word games. It is invalid to claim one means 3-in-1.
civic
Well-known member
only from unitarians not the rest of the world and other religions.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Again, you keep wanting to be the one to set the low standard to reject the one true God of the Bible.
Just because the man Jesus pre-existed does not mean he is God.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Truth is not determined by the majority.
civic
Well-known member
Correct but you have redefined monotheism with in an unaccepted definition only espoused by unitarians
I already told you that Jesus declared himself the "I Am" of the OT. Do you believe Jesus?
He prayed to the Father many times like he did just before he was crucified.
The Holy Spirit has his own name such as Comforter / Counselor / Advocate / Intercessor / Shekhinah....
As his own person, the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4), is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8), is All-Knowing (1 Corinthians 2:10-11), is Creator (Luke 1:35), etc...
So it's a common fact for unitarians to preexist thousands of years, even before being born? Do you communicate with those preexisting spirits? Have spirits reached out to you to communicate to you? Tell us about that.
101G
Well-known member
Through him is he himself in the ECHAD. Doug did you not read Isaiah 44:24? he was "ALONE". again listen to what q01G say and how he say it... "Jesus the Christ made NOTHING, but Jesus made ALL THINGS". did you understand what I said?
John 1:3 is the same One Person in Isaiah 44:24. as well as Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
101G.
101G
Well-known member
it make no difference what word is used, "god", or "God" there is none WITH, or beside him. now concerning a "god" or "gods" plural. listen, 1 Chronicles 16:26 "For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens." how many? ALL the gods are Idols. so makes no different how one can translate it, no god, means just that.... no god.
101G.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Precisely, which is why the NT revelations about the Word/Son disclose that “the LORD” in Isaiah 44:24 is Yahweh as the preincarnate Word.
I don’t know why you are claiming I am in error? Scripture reveals the Word/Jesus Christ as the one through whom all things were created.
Pulpit Commentary says,
I am the Lord that maketh all things - rather, I the Lord am he that doeth all things; i.e. I am he that executeth whatever he designs - that stretcheth forth the heavens alone (comp. Job 9:8), that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. God did not delegate the creation of the heaven and the earth to an inferior spirit, a δημιουργός, as the Greeks generally taught. He did not even call in the co operation of a helper. Singly and solely by his own power he created all things. Isaiah 44:24
It is the Word alone who did all these things by his own power, by his own hand, by himself. The Hebrew means “with myself” in the sense of the capacity to do what he does comes from within himself, not another source.
Doug
101G
Well-known member
LOL, I do ... do you, if so, then he Jesus is the Father in the ECHAD, yes or NO.... (smile), your choice.
beside intercessory for someone else, then please post book chapter and verse to that effect.
Another ERROR, all the above are titles, not names.
Another ERROR on your part. while you're there come on down to Acts 5:7 "And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in." Acts 5:8 "And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much." Acts 5:9 "Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out." Spirit he is in the cap "S". and God is a, a, a, a, Spirit meaning "ONE" Spirit. for the Lord is that "Spirit". scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
now a revelation for you. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
question "when did the Holy Ghost/Spirit purchased the Church with HIS OWN BLOOD? please post book chapter and verse please..... (smile), Oh it's in the bible as to who purchased the Church with his own blood..... (smile). and yes, it was the Holy Spirit.... Oh this is Just 2 easy.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
yes, the same ONE PERSON.
again ERROR..... JESUS the Christ made NOTHING, but JESUS DID. ...... (smile). do you need proof, by scripture?
Doug it's the same one Person in the ECHAD. ... THINK man.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
are you really understanding what you're saying? a man pre-existed? no flesh and blood pre-existed before creation.
101G.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
There are three persons in the One God! The singular person of the three that is credited with creating all things is the Word who became flesh. It was his hands, his power, alone!
Doug
101G
Well-known member
Doug, Doug, listen to the bible. the Word is God, (John 1:1c, the "LORD", ONE PERSON). scripture, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." Isaiah 48:13 "Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."
Doug, who hand laid the foundation of the earth, and spanned the heavens? who hand Doug? answer ..... the "LORD".
only one person. for the Word is the LORD, who is God. this is who HAND that MADE ALL THINGS. if you cannot believe the bible, then sorry for you.
101G
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