Wrangler
Well-known member
LOL. What would be a perfect verse to undermine trinitarianism?
Even in John 1, Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
Rowan
Active member
The word pre-existed before the foundations of the earth. It's called language it's used to explain things. Here's a example.
Would you say Jesus pre-existed before the cross? Or did Jesus pre-exist before the resurrection? So there is something pre About the word.
The pre-existence of Christ is a central tenet of mainstream Christianity. Most mainstream churches that accept the Nicene Creed consider the nature of Christ's pre-existence as the divine hypostasis called the Logos or Word, described in John 1:1–18, which begins:
GeneZ
Well-known member
The Trinity can be referred to as "He" because all three are unified in one mind, as One being.I know, now READ Matthews 19:3 & 4 and tell us if 101G is correct or not........
101G.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
Well?
Jesus's Deity is God the Father.
The Holy Spirit's Deity is God the Father...
And, the Father is God having no second nature in union, like the other two have.
They are not three 'gods' as the pagans followed.
But One God as Three!
The Holy Spirit is God expressed through the nature of angels,
and the Son is God expressed through the nature of humans.
Its still all "God."
One can serve spaghetti with different sauces and garnishes.
Its all "spaghetti."
Likewise for the Son and Holy Spirit, being all God.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Colossians 1:15-17
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things
have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and
in him all things hold together."
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things
have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and
in him all things hold together."
Your way of thinking illustrates how Satan who can not win, never quits and still thinks he can win.
Why? Because, he is able to deny truth as strongly as you do.
Thanks for your example to illustrate with.
There is no Bible verse that undermines Trinitarianism.
Read 1 Tim 3:16 and weep for all unitarians that have been utterly deceived by unitarianism.
(1 Tim. 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
GeneZ
Well-known member
The Trinity is only One God...
101G
Well-known member
was this Manifestation at the Lord Jesus putting on flesh, or at his baptism? which one....
101G.
101G
Well-known member
Incarnation.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Go away.... Go beg on another street corner.
GeneZ
Well-known member
And, some still wonder how anyone could ever end up in Hell?
The angels must have shook their heads as they watched their old friends siding with Lucifer.
101G
Well-known member
EclipseEventSigns
Well-known member
Great message on exactly the topic in the original post. Who has the courage to spend the time to listen to an actual expert?
GeneZ
Well-known member
Still begging...... I see.
Well, I mean what is invisible to us. So in the spiritual realm, our view isnt anywhere near as great. So a being in that realm could seem a certain way to us, but actually be much much greater. So with the Trinity. Our view is limited. But the Trinity is not on that plane of view.
GeneZ
Well-known member
.....................................
1 Tim. 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh")
As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God "manifest in the flesh."
Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with "God" as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: "he" (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [`70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck's translation), "he who" (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), "who," or "which." Even the equally old Douay version has "which was manifested in the flesh." All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word oV ("who") here instead of qeoV ("God"). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16? [7(Bottom of Page)]
Noted trinitarian Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:
“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:
“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ[“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.
In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.
What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!
Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!
Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:
“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.
And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:
“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.
And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:
“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς[‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.
The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.
Even if we were to insist that those later manuscripts that used theos were, somehow, correct, we would have to recognize that it is the anarthrous (without the definite article) theos which we find. This is rarely, if ever, the form used for the only true God (when the known exceptions are taken into account). Instead, it either points to the probability that it is a corrupted os (which of course would not have the article in the first place), or, less probable, but still possible, that Christ is being called "a god" - see the BOWGOD and DEF studies.
.............................................
7. Some trinitarian paraphrase Bibles are even more certain and clear:
"He (Christ) was shown to us in a human body" - ETRV.
"Christ appeared in human form" - Weymouth.
"Christ came to earth as a man" - NLV.
"Christ, who came to earth as a man" - LB.
"Here is the great mystery of our religion:
Christ came as a human." – CEV.
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