Eternal Security

[Tranquil]

Believers are capable of backsliding and doing serious damage to their fellowship and intimacy with Christ. Believers are capable of falling into serious doctrinal error. But it certainly does not mean a loss of salvation.

The theological bottom line, however, is that nothing in the Bible demands that born-again believers can lose their salvation. For those that believe you can I have a word of encouragement for you. You just don't realize how Totally you are saved. Jesus did a really good job securing our salvation.

And when we fall short...Great remorse and repentance restores the right relationship.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Hebrew Scriptures were written TO and FOR the Hebrew people.

Before Christ, yes, that would be a true statement. But today, the Gentiles still have the Hebrew Scriptures (they are commonly called the Old Testament (or Old Covenant)), which means the audience for the Hebrew Scriptures has expanded to the whole world because of Christ.

The New Covenant writings were written by Jewish Christians (Matthew, James, John, Peter, Saul, Jude, etc.), TO and FOR Jewish Christians whom God has saved beginning with 3000 Jews on Pentecost.

The authority for what makes something Scripture is based on the writer being one of the Apostles (or supported and recognized by an Apostle, like Luke), and the Apostles were all Jews who spent the 3 years with Jesus from His baptism to His ascension (Acts 1:22). So, yes, the were all written by Jews, but they were not all written TO and FOR only the Jewish audience. Many of them (Luke and Acts foremost among them) were written TO a Gentile audience FOR a Gentile audience.

Your problem is that you think the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets was written by Gentiles TO and FOR a Gentile audience and that the New Covenant writings were written by Gentiles TO and FOR a Gentile audience.

I don't believe any of that, except that the audience for them has been expanded by Christ to also apply to the Gentiles.

But that would be a lie. God did not spend nearly 4000 years developing Covenants and sending Prophets TO ISRAEL and as soon as the New Covenant comes into being His first words are to uncircumcised, non-covenant, idol-worshiping Gentiles?
Talk about Gentile arrogance.

No arrogance at all. I am humbled by the fact that God has the grace and generosity to extend His love, forgiveness, and mercy to everyone, not just His "biological children" (the Jews), but also to the ones He is willing to adopt.

Are you going to prove your position or ignore proving your position?

My point has been proven through Scripture, but you insist on putting your own words with God's, thereby changing His message. Because the Jews of the first century refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah promised in the Law and Prophets (which He knew before He created the Universe that they would do), God expanded the audience of the Gospel message to the Gentiles (which was always the plan from before He created the Universe).

And the Christ followers he was writing to were Jews.

Some of them were, yes. But He clearly says that he is speaking to Gentiles, and not just proselyte Gentiles, but also to those who had never heard the Law of Moses before.

Who's "WE?" Are you of the House of Israel or Judah? Because that's who God has covenant with.

We is all humanity. The Old Covenant (the one made with Abraham, and RENEWED with Issac, and RENEWED with Jacob, and RENEWED with Moses) was fulfilled in Christ/Messiah Jesus. A fulfilled covenant still has relevance, but only in showing what has been done, not what is still required of the ones who were in covenant. And then Jesus instituted a NEW Covenant through belief in Him, and invited the Gentiles to participate in that covenant with the Jews by believing in Him also.

Put up or shut up. SHOW ME IN THE LAW, PSALMS, AND PROPHETS GOD MAKING COVENANT WITH GENTILES.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Well, let's start with something pretty obvious and profound.
Of the five (5) women in the genealogy of Jesus, two of them were Gentiles: Rahab and Ruth. These two (at least) were Gentiles who became Jews. They represent Gentiles who were brought into the Old Covenant, and who were no longer considered outsiders, but were fully recognized as members of the nation of Israel.

Now, we move on to gen 12:1-3,
"Now the Lord said to Abram,
'Go from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.'"
The Gentiles were promised to be blessed through Abraham (Abram at the time), from the very beginning of God's interaction with Abraham.

Next, we look at Num 15:14-16, "Now if a stranger resides among you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wants to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so shall he do. 15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who resides among you, a permanent statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the stranger who resides with you."
One law, and one ordinance for both the Jew (you) and the Gentile (the stranger). The stranger is even authorized to make burnt offerings to the Lord just as the Jews are, and thereby participated in the blessings incumbent in offering sacrifice to the Lord.

The full inclusion of the Gentile nations as equal citizens in God’s kingdom was not explicit in the old covenant revelation, but Paul speaks of Gentiles being “fellow heirs” with Jews of the divine promises as a mystery now made known clearly (Eph. 3:6). For the apostle, mystery typically refers not to something unintelligible but rather to a truth that was dimly revealed in the Old Testament such that it was not grasped until the coming of the Spirit in the new covenant. While in retrospect the Lord’s purpose to redeem even the Gentiles is evident in the prophets (Isa. 19:16–25; Zech. 14:16), even the prophets did not fully understand the ramifications of the salvation of the nations — Gentile believers would be on equal footing with Jewish believers in the kingdom of God. The early church father John Chrysostom writes, “The prophets therefore spoke but did not have complete knowledge at the time”.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Before Christ, yes, that would be a true statement. But today, the Gentiles still have the Hebrew Scriptures (they are commonly called the Old Testament (or Old Covenant)), which means the audience for the Hebrew Scriptures has expanded to the whole world because of Christ.

Gentiles don't have the Hebrew Scriptures. That "having" was given to the religious leaders of Israel as keepers of the oracle of God. If anything, Gentiles have stolen the Hebrew Scriptures, read and re-interpret the Hebrew Scriptures as though God wrote them to Gentiles.
And since the destruction of the Jewish Temple hasn't that been the case for 1900 years? Everything Jewish in their Hebrew Scriptures - which means everything in their Hebrew Scriptures - has been re-interpreted with a Gentile mindset instead of Jewish reality.
Where in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say they were "expanded to the whole world?"
No, it doesn't say that at all. But you are inserting your Gentile propaganda and re-interpreting the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset and trying to turn them into Gentile Scriptures. There is no such thing as Gentile Scriptures.
IF there were, there would most likely be a Gentile covenant but there isn't even that in existence.

The authority for what makes something Scripture is based on the writer being one of the Apostles (or supported and recognized by an Apostle, like Luke),

Yes, that is the Gentile conclusion. Spoken like a true Gentile looking at the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Covenant writings written by Jews like a Gentile with a Gentile mindset.
BUT the authority that makes something Scripture rests with God. How many writings/Scripture were written by any apostle that DIDN'T make it into the "New Testament" canon? There's 3rd Peter, the Gospel According to Peter, the Didache, and many others. Just because an apostle wrote something isn't authority enough. Some Gentile church fathers didn't even want Romans included in the canon. Martin Luther didn't even want/believe any of Peter's letters should have been part of the canon. So, men's opinions varied on the question. And the reason why there is even a "New Testament" canon/bible is because of heresy and that during persecution if a believer was going to die for possessing any of the writings of an apostle, then WHICH writings qualified? Which writings would you die for? The Gospel or John or the Gospel of Judas?

and the Apostles were all Jews who spent the 3 years with Jesus from His baptism to His ascension (Acts 1:22). So, yes, the were all written by Jews, but they were not all written TO and FOR only the Jewish audience. Many of them (Luke and Acts foremost among them) were written TO a Gentile audience FOR a Gentile audience.

All one need do is look at the content of Matthew through Revelation to KNOW they were not only written BY Jewish Christians but written TO Jewish Christians.

I don't believe any of that, except that the audience for them has been expanded by Christ to also apply to the Gentiles.

Only in your vain imagination.
Moses wrote the Pentateuch TO and FOR the children of Israel.
The Psalms were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR the Hebrew people.
The Hebrew Prophets were sent BY God TO and FOR Israel throughout the centuries.
The Gospels were written TO and FOR Israel and described FOR Israel the life and history of not only Jesus Messiah but of Jewish history, Jewish culture, Jewish religious practices, Jewish covenants, Jewish prophets and other individuals, that pertain to Jews.
The letters written by Jewish Christians ALL describe discussion and at various times throughout the first century of Jewish Christians trying to understand the things going on with Israel as a people and the things God was now doing with this testimony of a Jewish Messiah and what this "Holy Spirit of Promise" meant with regard to the existing Jewish Covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic.)
Revelation was written and contains everything pertaining to the Jews - from their history, their culture, their prophets and their prophecies, a future Temple, to what is told to befall the Chosen people of God (Israel) at the end times.

No arrogance at all. I am humbled by the fact that God has the grace and generosity to extend His love, forgiveness, and mercy to everyone, not just His "biological children" (the Jews), but also to the ones He is willing to adopt.

No, not "everyone," but ONLY to those He has Covenant with.
ALL your understanding and belief of this "so-great salvation" of God is done through a Gentile mindset. This is your error.

My point has been proven through Scripture, but you insist on putting your own words with God's, thereby changing His message. Because the Jews of the first century refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah promised in the Law and Prophets (which He knew before He created the Universe that they would do), God expanded the audience of the Gospel message to the Gentiles (which was always the plan from before He created the Universe).

Israel because of sin has refused a great deal with regard to their God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but that doesn't matter. If one is in the palm of the Father's hand - and Israel is not only in the palm of the Father's hand but is also the apple of His eye - then Israel is covered through God's Covenants and ONLY those in covenant are recipients of whatever is contained in covenant. You can't add things into God's covenant that isn't there and that is your great error. 3000 Jews - maybe some who cried, "Crucify! Crucify!" were among those saved and born again from above by God and given His Holy Spirit of Promise. And that was ONLY ONE DAY (of salvation.) Christ was adding Jews to His Church for the next four decades while the Temple stood, and their eyes were open UNTIL He blinded their eyes and began to bring in Gentiles.

Some of them were, yes. But He clearly says that he is speaking to Gentiles, and not just proselyte Gentiles, but also to those who had never heard the Law of Moses before.

The only people that were Gentile that did hear about Jewish history and life were those Gentiles who were circumcised and allied themselves to Israel through vows and sacrifices and became citizens of Israel. They did not become "Jews" and were not in covenant because of the fact they were NOT of Abraham's seed. They only enjoyed the BLESSINGS of the Abrahamic Covenant but not part of the covenant NOT BEING HIS SEED (Gen. 17.)

We is all humanity. The Old Covenant (the one made with Abraham, and RENEWED with Issac, and RENEWED with Jacob, and RENEWED with Moses) was fulfilled in Christ/Messiah Jesus. A fulfilled covenant still has relevance, but only in showing what has been done, not what is still required of the ones who were in covenant. And then Jesus instituted a NEW Covenant through belief in Him, and invited the Gentiles to participate in that covenant with the Jews by believing in Him also.

Gentiles were NEVER included in the Covenants with God. More error.

Well, let's start with something pretty obvious and profound.
Of the five (5) women in the genealogy of Jesus, two of them were Gentiles: Rahab and Ruth. These two (at least) were Gentiles who became Jews. They represent Gentiles who were brought into the Old Covenant, and who were no longer considered outsiders, but were fully recognized as members of the nation of Israel.

And it was through the husband they received BLESSINGS of Covenant and since they were NOT of Abraham's loins/seed were not IN covenant.

Now, we move on to gen 12:1-3,
"Now the Lord said to Abram,
'Go from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.'"
The Gentiles were promised to be blessed through Abraham (Abram at the time), from the very beginning of God's interaction with Abraham.

All the families that would be blessed according to the dictates of the covenant are those of Abraham's seed and Gentiles are NOT his seed. And don't exclude the families of the earth that DID COME from Abraham through Ishmael (twelve princes/sons) and Esau. God blessed them to become a people of 1.5 billion people today. They're called Arabs. Moslems, Muslims, Islamists.

Next, we look at Num 15:14-16, "Now if a stranger resides among you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wants to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so shall he do. 15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who resides among you, a permanent statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the stranger who resides with you."
One law, and one ordinance for both the Jew (you) and the Gentile (the stranger). The stranger is even authorized to make burnt offerings to the Lord just as the Jews are, and thereby participated in the blessings incumbent in offering sacrifice to the Lord.

These "Gentiles" are proselytes. They are circumcised, offer sacrifices, promise to live according to the Law of Moses, and raise their children in the Law of Moses. In effect, they become citizens of Israel enjoying the blessings of the covenant NOT being IN covenant.
You have a great deal to learn.

The full inclusion of the Gentile nations as equal citizens in God’s kingdom was not explicit in the old covenant revelation, but Paul speaks of Gentiles being “fellow heirs” with Jews of the divine promises as a mystery now made known clearly (Eph. 3:6). For the apostle, mystery typically refers not to something unintelligible but rather to a truth that was dimly revealed in the Old Testament such that it was not grasped until the coming of the Spirit in the new covenant. While in retrospect the Lord’s purpose to redeem even the Gentiles is evident in the prophets (Isa. 19:16–25; Zech. 14:16), even the prophets did not fully understand the ramifications of the salvation of the nations — Gentile believers would be on equal footing with Jewish believers in the kingdom of God. The early church father John Chrysostom writes, “The prophets therefore spoke but did not have complete knowledge at the time”.

Saul can speak of it all he wants but if he diverts from what's contained in the Hebrew Scriptures - and he does in his letters several times - then his word is not to be followed. Remember, including Romans and Galatians as well as his other letters were by OPINION of men and not of God. The Gentile fellowship WANT to say they are of God but then why isn't the Gospel of Judas or the Didache or 3rd Peter not included in the canon? They were written by apostles and according to YOUR holding of what is of Scripture and what isn't then include these writings claimed to be by apostles.
You look at the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset and you re-interpret the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset.
How about Gentiles leaving the Hebrew Scriptures and their Covenants to the Hebrew people with whom God has covenant and let's stop the theft of their inheritance. God is definitely not pleased.

 

[Doug Brents]

Gentiles don't have the Hebrew Scriptures. That "having" was given to the religious leaders of Israel as keepers of the oracle of God. If anything, Gentiles have stolen the Hebrew Scriptures, read and re-interpret the Hebrew Scriptures as though God wrote them to Gentiles.

Not at all. The Gentiles (most anyway) understand that the Hebrew Scriptures were originally given only to the Hebrews (the family that became the nation of Israel). From Abram until Christ, only the Hebrews (or those like Ruth and Rahab who were adopted into the family) were subject to the laws of, or included in the promises in, the Covenant made with Abram. But since the time of Christ, those Scriptures are relevant to all who are adopted into the family of Christ, because the family of Christ is made up of the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) as well as those who are included through adoption into that family through faith in Jesus (the Gentiles).

And since the destruction of the Jewish Temple hasn't that been the case for 1900 years? Everything Jewish in their Hebrew Scriptures - which means everything in their Hebrew Scriptures - has been re-interpreted with a Gentile mindset instead of Jewish reality.

Again, not at all. The fact that the majority of the members of the body of Christ are Gentile makes it necessary to focus the majority of the teachings from a Gentile perspective, but that does not mean that it is re-interpreted in a was inconsistent with what the Scriptures say. Luke's Gospel is not inconsistent with Matthew's, Mark's, or John's Gospels. And many of Paul's letters were addressed to Gentiles directly. The fact of an integrated Church is clearly seen throughout the New Testament letters.

Where in the Hebrew Scriptures does it say they were "expanded to the whole world?"
No, it doesn't say that at all. But you are inserting your Gentile propaganda and re-interpreting the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset and trying to turn them into Gentile Scriptures. There is no such thing as Gentile Scriptures.

Correct, there are not Jewish Scriptures and Gentile Scriptures. There is the Word of God, period. And the Jewish Apostles recognized many of the other Apostle's writings as Scripture even during their own lives (2 Pet 3:15-16, 1 Tim 5:18).

IF there were, there would most likely be a Gentile covenant but there isn't even that in existence.

No, there wouldn't because as far as God is concerned spiritually, there is no longer any division between the Jews and the Gentiles. All are equally guilty of sin, and all are equally accepted into forgiveness if they believe in and obey Jesus.

Yes, that is the Gentile conclusion. Spoken like a true Gentile looking at the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Covenant writings written by Jews like a Gentile with a Gentile mindset.
BUT the authority that makes something Scripture rests with God. How many writings/Scripture were written by any apostle that DIDN'T make it into the "New Testament" canon? There's 3rd Peter, the Gospel According to Peter, the Didache, and many others. Just because an apostle wrote something isn't authority enough. Some Gentile church fathers didn't even want Romans included in the canon. Martin Luther didn't even want/believe any of Peter's letters should have been part of the canon. So, men's opinions varied on the question. And the reason why there is even a "New Testament" canon/bible is because of heresy and that during persecution if a believer was going to die for possessing any of the writings of an apostle, then WHICH writings qualified? Which writings would you die for? The Gospel or John or the Gospel of Judas?

While some of this is true, many of the Apostles writings were accepted as Scripture by the other Apostles even during the first century, as noted above. But part of what makes some of the other Apostolic writings you mention above be not included in the canon was that they included discrepancies with other documents that were already accepted as Scripture.

All one need do is look at the content of Matthew through Revelation to KNOW they were not only written BY Jewish Christians but written TO Jewish Christians.

Again, Luke was probably not a Jew, and his letters (the Gospel of Luke, and Acts) were not written to a Jew (they were written to a Greek (Gentile) called Theophilus (or "friend of God"). Acts 15:23 describes a letter from the Apostles directly to the Gentiles who were being persecuted by Jews because the Jews thought that the Gentiles had to become Jewish (be circumcised, eat the Jewish diet, observe the sabbath, etc.) before they could become part of the Church. But the Apostles tell them, and the Jews trying to make the Gentiles follow Judaism, in this letter that they do not need to obey the Law of Moses and become Jewish. Parts of many of Paul's writings specifically say he is talking directly to Gentiles (ie: Rom 11:13, Rom 5:7-13).

Only in your vain imagination.
Moses wrote the Pentateuch TO and FOR the children of Israel.
The Psalms were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR the Hebrew people.

Many of the psalms were written by David (long before Christ was born, therefore before "Christians" became a concept), and the collection of the Psalms were part of the Jewish Scriptures from the 2nd century BC at the latest.

The Hebrew Prophets were sent BY God TO and FOR Israel throughout the centuries.
The Gospels were written TO and FOR Israel and described FOR Israel the life and history of not only Jesus Messiah but of Jewish history, Jewish culture, Jewish religious practices, Jewish covenants, Jewish prophets and other individuals, that pertain to Jews.

Matthew for sure was, and Mark probably was, written to a Jewish audience. But Luke was absolutely written to a Gentile audience, and John was written many years later to an integrated Church.

The letters written by Jewish Christians ALL describe discussion and at various times throughout the first century of Jewish Christians trying to understand the things going on with Israel as a people and the things God was now doing with this testimony of a Jewish Messiah and what this "Holy Spirit of Promise" meant with regard to the existing Jewish Covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic.)

And they include the integration of the Gentile converts to Jesus into the Jewish followers of Jesus.

Revelation was written and contains everything pertaining to the Jews - from their history, their culture, their prophets and their prophecies, a future Temple, to what is told to befall the Chosen people of God (Israel) at the end times.

Revelation was written after the Gospel of John, and again is to an integrated Church. It is not exclusively to the Jewish follower of Christ.

No, not "everyone," but ONLY to those He has Covenant with.
ALL your understanding and belief of this "so-great salvation" of God is done through a Gentile mindset. This is your error.

Then God is also in error, because He is the one who inspired the authors of Scripture to tell us that the Gentiles are adopted as co-heirs with the Jews into God's promises (Eph 3:4-6).

Israel because of sin has refused a great deal with regard to their God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but that doesn't matter. If one is in the palm of the Father's hand - and Israel is not only in the palm of the Father's hand but is also the apple of His eye - then Israel is covered through God's Covenants and ONLY those in covenant are recipients of whatever is contained in covenant. You can't add things into God's covenant that isn't there and that is your great error.

I agree, we cannot add to what God has said. And it is HE who has said that those of the Jews who do not believe in Jesus will be cut off from the promises (Rom 11), and the Gentiles who do beleive in Jesus will be grafted in into their place, but the Jews who were cut off can be grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief.

3000 Jews - maybe some who cried, "Crucify! Crucify!" were among those saved and born again from above by God and given His Holy Spirit of Promise. And that was ONLY ONE DAY (of salvation.) Christ was adding Jews to His Church for the next four decades while the Temple stood, and their eyes were open UNTIL He blinded their eyes and began to bring in Gentiles.

The Gentiles began to be brought into the Church (around 40AD) long before the Temple fell (70AD). And Paul was converted around 33AD and began his ministry, possibly as early as 37AD but probably closer to 46AD, as the "Apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13, Galatians 2:7, 1 Timothy 2:7) as God appointed him (Acts 9:15, 22:15).

The only people that were Gentile that did hear about Jewish history and life were those Gentiles who were circumcised and allied themselves to Israel through vows and sacrifices and became citizens of Israel. They did not become "Jews" and were not in covenant because of the fact they were NOT of Abraham's seed. They only enjoyed the BLESSINGS of the Abrahamic Covenant but not part of the covenant NOT BEING HIS SEED (Gen. 17.)

Gal 3:16 says that the promises were not to all of Israel, but to Jesus, because the "seed" of Abraham in the promise was singular.
Gal 3:29 says that if you belong to Jesus (whether Jew of Gentile) then you are heirs to the promise and included in Abraham's seed.

Gentiles were NEVER included in the Covenants with God. More error.

Yes, that is more error on your part.

And it was through the husband they received BLESSINGS of Covenant and since they were NOT of Abraham's loins/seed were not IN covenant.

Not true. Ruth demonstrates a covenantal love toward Naomi (Ruth 1:14, 16; 2:8, 11, 21, 23), usually reserved for marriage (Gen 2:24). In fact, Ruth binds herself to the covenant God, Yahweh, and invokes his wrath should she break her vow (Ruth 1:16-17). Again, we witness the kind of covenantal promise that God once made to Abraham (Gen 15:8-21; 17:7-8). Then like Abraham (12:4), Ruth obeys immediately (Ruth 3:5) and receives praise in the same breath as Rachel and Leah (4:11)—the mothers of Israel (Gen 29:31-30:24; 35:16-18). The Lord then blesses Ruth with conception (Ruth 4:13), though she had long been barren (Gen 4:1; 21:2; 25:21; 29:31; 30:22, etc.). He grafts the Gentile, Ruth, into the lineage of Abraham, through whom would come David, and then the Lord Jesus Christ (Ruth 4:17-22; see Matt 1:1-17).

All the families that would be blessed according to the dictates of the covenant are those of Abraham's seed and Gentiles are NOT his seed. And don't exclude the families of the earth that DID COME from Abraham through Ishmael (twelve princes/sons) and Esau. God blessed them to become a people of 1.5 billion people today. They're called Arabs. Moslems, Muslims, Islamists.

But they are not the "Children of Promise" nor were they to be included in what is the Jews. Only the children of Abraham through Isaac were the children of promise (Gal 4:30).
But they can be brought into covenant with God through Christ/Messiah Jesus as can all other Gentiles.

These "Gentiles" are proselytes. They are circumcised, offer sacrifices, promise to live according to the Law of Moses, and raise their children in the Law of Moses. In effect, they become citizens of Israel enjoying the blessings of the covenant NOT being IN covenant.
You have a great deal to learn.

That is not what we find in Acts 15:7-29. The Apostles (through whom the Holy Spirit spoke in the first century as the prophets of old) wrote to the Gentile converst to Christ, and to the Jews who were pushing them to be "circumcised, offer sacrifices, promise to live according to the Law of Moses, and raise their children in the Law of Moses", that they did not need to keep the Law, did not need to be circumcised, did not need to keep the sabbath, etc.

Saul can speak of it all he wants but if he diverts from what's contained in the Hebrew Scriptures - and he does in his letters several times - then his word is not to be followed. Remember, including Romans and Galatians as well as his other letters were by OPINION of men and not of God.

Not true at all. Peter considered the writings of Paul to be Scripture as he says in 2 Pet 3:16, "just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Peter (who I believe was also inspired by God in his writings) lumps Paul's writings in with the Old Testament (Hebrew) Scriptures as originating with God.

The Gentile fellowship WANT to say they are of God but then why isn't the Gospel of Judas or the Didache or 3rd Peter not included in the canon? They were written by apostles and according to YOUR holding of what is of Scripture and what isn't then include these writings claimed to be by apostles.

I do not know why the Holy Spirit lead the men of the first couple of centuries to exclude those writings, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit was leading the men who sat in counsel in the early Church to include the 27 "books" that are included in the New Testament today, and to exclude those other writings. Maybe they did not add anything to what these 27 books contained. Maybe they included some contradictory informaiton that was not inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't know, but I do believe that the Holy Spirit has preserved the 27 books we have today as the Scripture that He endorses.

You look at the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset and you re-interpret the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset.
How about Gentiles leaving the Hebrew Scriptures and their Covenants to the Hebrew people with whom God has covenant and let's stop the theft of their inheritance. God is definitely not pleased.

You are correct, God is not pleased with the Jewish defiance of His Son, the Messiah promised to the Jews that they should have been looking for, accepted, and followed. But they refused, and so God says that because they refused He will draw into His Covenant all those (Gentiles) who WILL accept Jesus as Messiah. This is not a theft of Scripture from the Jews, but a grateful acceptance of mercy from those who had no hope or chance at mercy before Jesus.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not at all. The Gentiles (most anyway) understand that the Hebrew Scriptures were originally given only to the Hebrews (the family that became the nation of Israel). From Abram until Christ, only the Hebrews (or those like Ruth and Rahab who were adopted into the family) were subject to the laws of, or included in the promises in, the Covenant made with Abram. But since the time of Christ, those Scriptures are relevant to all who are adopted into the family of Christ, because the family of Christ is made up of the biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) as well as those who are included through adoption into that family through faith in Jesus (the Gentiles).

Think for a moment. If there is a natural Olive tree Israel who has covenant with God for over 5000 years, and with the initiating of the New Covenant made with Israel which included a "Holy Spirit [that was promised]," and 3000 Jews were born-again at Pentecost in one day, and Christ was adding to His Church daily from that day forward and for the next four decades until the destruction of their Temple, THIS would make natural, biological Olive tree Israel NOW SPIRITUAL Israel....WHERE do you get Gentiles becoming spiritual Israel. They don't even have a covenant with God and are NOT of the seed of Abraham or the children of Israel through birth?
You're following Gentile propaganda. Do some ORIGINAL thinking over there Douglas.

No, there wouldn't because as far as God is concerned spiritually, there is no longer any division between the Jews and the Gentiles. All are equally guilty of sin, and all are equally accepted into forgiveness if they believe in and obey Jesus.

More Gentile propoganda. Revelations is all about Israel. It is NOT about Gentiles. There is still division between the races, and it is there by God. God still has countless promises to keep towards Israel. NOTE: TOWARDS ISRAEL.

Again, Luke was probably not a Jew, and his letters (the Gospel of Luke, and Acts) were not written to a Jew (they were written to a Greek (Gentile) called Theophilus (or "friend of God"). Acts 15:23 describes a letter from the Apostles directly to the Gentiles who were being persecuted by Jews because the Jews thought that the Gentiles had to become Jewish (be circumcised, eat the Jewish diet, observe the sabbath, etc.) before they could become part of the Church. But the Apostles tell them, and the Jews trying to make the Gentiles follow Judaism, in this letter that they do not need to obey the Law of Moses and become Jewish. Parts of many of Paul's writings specifically say he is talking directly to Gentiles (ie: Rom 11:13, Rom 5:7-13).

Gentile propoganda.
Luke was Jewish. Jews were given authority and possession of the oracles of God and God would not violate His word by giving a Gentile (Luke) His oracles. THINK, man.

Many of the psalms were written by David (long before Christ was born, therefore before "Christians" became a concept), and the collection of the Psalms were part of the Jewish Scriptures from the 2nd century BC at the latest.

Christ is from the Hebrew "Messias." Jews were awaiting their Redeemer even BEFORE Moses. So, if they were awaiting their Messiah and "Messias" means "Christ" from the Greek "Christos" then Israel were the first and true CHRISTians.

Matthew for sure was, and Mark probably was, written to a Jewish audience. But Luke was absolutely written to a Gentile audience, and John was written many years later to an integrated Church.

ALL the New Covenant writings were written to Jews. Everything happening in Israel for the next forty-plus years was Jewish-only and they were the ones experiencing their Holy Spirit of Promise and enjoying - albeit, even trying to understand - what God was doing in this new era post-cross.

Revelation was written after the Gospel of John, and again is to an integrated Church. It is not exclusively to the Jewish follower of Christ.

What do Gentiles have to do with the seven Jewish churches in Asia?
What do Gentiles have to do with the Temple, measuring it, what was taking place in it, the rituals, the sacrifices, their culture?
What do Gentiles have to do with the Jewish prophets, the Tabernacle, things in the Tabernacle like the golden candlesticks, etc?
What do Gentiles have to do with the Law and circumcision, or the land the Jews live on?
What do Gentiles have to do with a "false prophet" as opposed to a Jewish true prophet?
NOTHING!
Revelation is a prophecy TO and FOR Israel of things to shortly happen upon that people.

Then God is also in error, because He is the one who inspired the authors of Scripture to tell us that the Gentiles are adopted as co-heirs with the Jews into God's promises (Eph 3:4-6).

Is error inspired?
Is contradiction inspired?
Is changing a word in a prophecy by Isaiah by Saul to make it say SOMETHING ELSE to suit his purpose inspired?
Co-heirs? Did you say, "co-heirs?"
Gentiles are NOT even included in the original Abrahamic Covenant, or the original Mosaic Covenant, or the New Covenant in Jeremiah. How can you add to the bible AND THE COVENANTS after the fact (after they are made and closed) to add Gentiles? Open you mind!

I agree, we cannot add to what God has said. And it is HE who has said that those of the Jews who do not believe in Jesus will be cut off from the promises (Rom 11), and the Gentiles who do beleive in Jesus will be grafted in into their place, but the Jews who were cut off can be grafted back in if they do not continue in their unbelief.

There is NOWHERE in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets where God has said Gentiles- UNCIRCUMCISED NON-COVENANT Gentiles - are an Olive tree or even a "wild" Olive tree. The Olive tree in Scripture represents ISRAEL - NOT GENTILES!
Man, you are so indoctrinated by Gentile propoganda!

The Gentiles began to be brought into the Church (around 40AD) long before the Temple fell (70AD). And Paul was converted around 33AD and began his ministry, possibly as early as 37AD but probably closer to 46AD, as the "Apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13, Galatians 2:7, 1 Timothy 2:7) as God appointed him (Acts 9:15, 22:15).

You make it sound as though hundreds and thousands of Gentiles were bveing saved during Christ's building of His Covenant Church - which is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle in which it is estimated that 4 million Hebrews were delivered from Egypt. Do you know the Jordan valley? Ever seen a map? Balaam was in one mountaintop looking down into the valley and he said they FILLED "the earth!"
Look, I'm not your teacher. I'm not your pastor. BUT YOU have so deep-ingrained Gentile indoctrination that I am tiring of repeating myself and have to comment on all your errors because of the Gentile indoctrination in you.

Not true. Ruth demonstrates a covenantal love toward Naomi (Ruth 1:14, 16; 2:8, 11, 21, 23), usually reserved for marriage (Gen 2:24). In fact, Ruth binds herself to the covenant God,

No, she bound herself to Naomi, not the covenant. She KNEW she was NOT covenant which is why Naomi instructed her what to do to get Boaz's attention to take her into his bosom. But she was Gentile and ONLY enjoyed the blessings of the covenant NOT the covenant itself BECAUSE she was NOT of Abraham's seed. Dude, I am getting tired of this.
I'm done.
Comment elsewhere. You don't know anything about God.
And I'm not your teacher. Get Biblical because I am done with your Gentile propoganda and heresy.

 

[Doug Brents]

Think for a moment. If there is a natural Olive tree Israel who has covenant with God for over 5000 years, and with the initiating of the New Covenant made with Israel which included a "Holy Spirit [that was promised]," and 3000 Jews were born-again at Pentecost in one day, and Christ was adding to His Church daily from that day forward and for the next four decades until the destruction of their Temple, THIS would make natural, biological Olive tree Israel NOW SPIRITUAL Israel....WHERE do you get Gentiles becoming spiritual Israel. They don't even have a covenant with God and are NOT of the seed of Abraham or the children of Israel through birth?
You're following Gentile propaganda. Do some ORIGINAL thinking over there Douglas.

What did John (the baptizer) say in Matt 3:8-10? "Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; 9 and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. 10 And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire."
He is saying that it does not matter who your biological parents are. Being Jewish is not a guarantee of receiving the reward of the promise. It is bearing fruit that matters. And many of the Jews of that day were not bearing good fruit. So John prophesied that they would be cut off, because the ax was already laid at the root of their trees. But then we are told that other branches, wild branches (Gentiles) would be grafted in and become part of the tree even though they were not part of the cultivated tree by nature. This is not "Gentile propaganda" but Scriptural truth.

More Gentile propoganda. Revelations is all about Israel. It is NOT about Gentiles. There is still division between the races, and it is there by God. God still has countless promises to keep towards Israel. NOTE: TOWARDS ISRAEL.

Yes, toward Israel, but Israel is not those who are biologically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is those who believe in, and make their Lord, Jesus the Messiah.

Gentile propoganda.
Luke was Jewish. Jews were given authority and possession of the oracles of God and God would not violate His word by giving a Gentile (Luke) His oracles. THINK, man.

Luke may have been a Hellenized Jew, or he may have been a Gentile, we don't know. But he wrote to a clearly Gentile audience. He was not seeking to convince Jews of the Lordship of Jesus, but to bring Gentiles into the Church. The oracles of God are no longer solely in the possession of the Jews, but are now in possession of those to whom Jesus is Lord. If the "Seed" (singular) of Abraham (Jesus) is not your master, then you are not a recipient of the Promise made to Abraham. But if He is you master, then you are a recipient of the Promise (Gal 3:16).

Christ is from the Hebrew "Messias." Jews were awaiting their Redeemer even BEFORE Moses. So, if they were awaiting their Messiah and "Messias" means "Christ" from the Greek "Christos" then Israel were the first and true CHRISTians.

I see what you are saying. The Hebrew Messiah is the same meaning of the Greek Christ, and so the Israelites, because they were awaiting the Messiah were seeking the Christ... I can agree with that understanding. Thank you for the clarification.

ALL the New Covenant writings were written to Jews. Everything happening in Israel for the next forty-plus years was Jewish-only and they were the ones experiencing their Holy Spirit of Promise and enjoying - albeit, even trying to understand - what God was doing in this new era post-cross.

Not everything that happened with the Holy Spirit was Jewish-only, there was quite a lot happening outside of the Israelite people. Gentiles all over the world were coming to faith in Jesus because the Gospel of Christ was being taught (as early as 37AD, or at least by 44AD) to them by Paul, and many others. And the Gentiles were not being compelled to follow the Law of Moses (be circumcised, observe sabbath, etc.) because that was no longer required for salvation.

What do Gentiles have to do with the seven Jewish churches in Asia?

Quite a lot, since most of the members of some of those congregations were Gentiles.

What do Gentiles have to do with the Temple, measuring it, what was taking place in it, the rituals, the sacrifices, their culture?

Absolutely nothing to do with the Temple in Jerusalem. But everything, in every way, with the Temple of the New Testament, because the New Testament Temple is the body of each believer in Christ (1 Cor 6:19-20). Yes, there is still the Temple in Heaven, of which the Temple in Jerusalem was a shadow, and our High Priest (Jesus) has entered into the Most Holy Place in that Temple as the mediator with God for us. But here on Earth the Temple is now our own physical body.

What do Gentiles have to do with the Jewish prophets, the Tabernacle, things in the Tabernacle like the golden candlesticks, etc?

The Tabernacle, which was a shadow of the Temple that Solomon built, which was a shadow of the Temple in Heaven, is now (as pointed out above) our bodies. The Churches are now the candlesticks (Rev 1:20). All the things in the Old Testament are shadows of the things to come.

What do Gentiles have to do with the Law and circumcision, or the land the Jews live on?

The Law has been made obsolete (Heb 8:13). And circumcision is now of the heart, not the flesh of the foreskin (Acts 7:51, Phil 3:3, Col 2:11). And the Land was taken away from the Children of Israel because of their hard hearts, but the true Land of Promise is the New Jerusalem to which God will bring all believers in Jesus after He destroys this Earth at Judgement (Isa 65:17).

What do Gentiles have to do with a "false prophet" as opposed to a Jewish true prophet?

Many of the false prophets were Jewish. But Paul was a prophet, and his God given ministry was to the Gentiles. And don't forget about Jonah who was sent as a prophet, not to the Jewish nation, but to the Gentile city of Nineveh.

NOTHING!
Revelation is a prophecy TO and FOR Israel of things to shortly happen upon that people.

Revelation was written in the mid 90sAD, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the scattering of the Christ followers there in 70AD. It is not about what was shortly to come in the physical sense, but mostly figurative predictions about the coming end of the physical world for all people, not just Jews.

Is error inspired?

No, but much error comes from misinterpretation of the inspired Word.

Is contradiction inspired?

No, there is no contradiction in God. But there is much contradiction in people like yourself who refuse to see God's truth in His Word.

Is changing a word in a prophecy by Isaiah by Saul to make it say SOMETHING ELSE to suit his purpose inspired?

Yes. Saul (Paul) knew the Old Covenant Scriptures by heart. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees, and could recite the entirety of the Scriptures. He would not make a mistake in them, and so any change made to them would have been directed for him to make by the Holy Spirit that lived within him.

Co-heirs? Did you say, "co-heirs?"
Gentiles are NOT even included in the original Abrahamic Covenant, or the original Mosaic Covenant, or the New Covenant in Jeremiah. How can you add to the bible AND THE COVENANTS after the fact (after they are made and closed) to add Gentiles? Open you mind!

Yes, I did say co-heirs, because that is the word that God used in His Scriptures. God said that the Gentiles are now brought into the New Covenant, because they are grafted into Israel through Christ. An example is if I enter into a covenant with you on behalf of me and my family, and later I get married, my wife becomes part of my family and is now bound by the covenant. She has been "grafted" into the covenant. So too have the Gentiles (who believe in Jesus) been grafted into the New Covenant because they are now part of Israel.

There is NOWHERE in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets where God has said Gentiles- UNCIRCUMCISED NON-COVENANT Gentiles - are an Olive tree or even a "wild" Olive tree. The Olive tree in Scripture represents ISRAEL - NOT GENTILES!
Man, you are so indoctrinated by Gentile propoganda!

You are correct, that analogy is not found in the Law, Psalms, or Prophets. It is found in the New Testament Scriptures.

You make it sound as though hundreds and thousands of Gentiles were bveing saved during Christ's building of His Covenant Church - which is a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle in which it is estimated that 4 million Hebrews were delivered from Egypt. Do you know the Jordan valley? Ever seen a map? Balaam was in one mountaintop looking down into the valley and he said they FILLED "the earth!"
Look, I'm not your teacher. I'm not your pastor. BUT YOU have so deep-ingrained Gentile indoctrination that I am tiring of repeating myself and have to comment on all your errors because of the Gentile indoctrination in you.

There is no "Gentile indoctrination" in me. I am trying to point out to you what the Scriptures say about Gentiles and what God has done that you either want to ignore or disavow. Yes, there are vastly more Gentiles followers of Christ today than there are Jewish followers of Christ. I can't tell you how many, because there are many who claim to be Christ's followers who are not really His. I have many Jewish friends who are Christ's, and many Gentile friends who are also Christ's. And I make no distinction between them on the basis of their human parentage.

No, she bound herself to Naomi, not the covenant.

Yes, she bound herself to Naomi, and called down God's wrath upon herself if she failed to observe her vow. She bound herself to God in the same vow, making Naomi's God (the One True Creator God) her only God.

She KNEW she was NOT covenant which is why Naomi instructed her what to do to get Boaz's attention to take her into his bosom.

She did not know the customs of Israel, so Naomi had to instruct her. She did not know all the details of the Covenant of Moses and Abraham. But she was bound to it none the less by her vow to be united to Naomi and God.

But she was Gentile and ONLY enjoyed the blessings of the covenant NOT the covenant itself BECAUSE she was NOT of Abraham's seed. Dude, I am getting tired of this.
I'm done.
Comment elsewhere. You don't know anything about God.
And I'm not your teacher. Get Biblical because I am done with your Gentile propoganda and heresy.

No, I would not accept a teacher who teaches such falsehoods that are so easily refuted with Scripture, and who, even after being presented with Scriptural proof, continues to stick with his false doctrines.
Do you know how ridiculous it is for you to say that Gentiles enjoy the blessings of the Covenant, but not the Covenant itself is? What you are saying is that they had all the benefits but none of the responsibilities of the Covenant. God does not give His blessing without also requiring our surrender to His Lordship. No one gets the benefit, but not the responsibility of any Covenant.

 

[dwight92070]

Jeremiah prophesied of a future New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31, which actually began when Jesus died ("This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20 in about 30 A.D). So the New Covenant didn't actually begin until approximately 630 years after Jeremiah prophesied about it, that is 30 A.D.
But Jeremiah continues his prophecy and says in Jeremiah 31:35:
"Thus says the Lord who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of Hosts is His name):
"If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, then the SEED of ISRAEL shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever."

So God promised that the SEED of ISRAEL would never stop being a nation forever.

But Israel, the nation, did cease being a nation from 70 A.D. until 1948, which is 1878 years!

So was Jeremiah mistaken or did God not fulfill His promise? No and no. There's a big difference between the nation of Israel and the seed of Israel.

"The SEED of ISRAEL did continue as a nation, when Jesus built His church. It began in 30 A.D. when Jesus died and was raised and sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples. This is also the start of the new covenant - and that nation (also called the church, the Israel of God -Galatians 6:16, the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile believers) continues to exist to this day, and will continue until His 2nd coming. Those who believed God in the Old Testament were called the remnant of Israel. Those who believe God and Jesus in the New Covenant are called Christians.

"But you (Jewish and Gentile believers)are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you were once not a people (here Paul seems to be speaking primarily to Gentile believers who once did not believe, but it would fit Jewish believers also, who once were not a part of the remnant of Israel), but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10

Did you notice the nation called the Israel of God (Jewish and Gentile believers) (Galatians 6:16) began at the same exact time that the New Covenant began - 30 A.D.? It was called the remnant of Israel in the Old Testament. Today it's also called the body of Christ, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

So if anyone tells you that believing Gentiles are not part of the New Covenant, you know they are wrong. Gentiles have been in and part of the New Covenant since day one, when Christ created His church -30 A.D. Although Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, look at all the Gentiles that he ministered to - the Samaritans, the synagogue official, the Centurion, the Syrophoenician woman, multitudes from Syria (Matthew 4:24) were healed, etc. Sure, not all of them became disciples, but many did, and when they did, they were part of the remnant of Israel and after Christ's resurrection, became part of the Israel of God, the ones who were Jews inwardly.

In fact, if the New Covenant was ONLY for the NATION of ISRAEL, then it only lasted 40 years, from 30 A.D. to 70 A.D., when the nation of Israel ceased to exist.

Some may object and say: "Well, Israel became a nation again in 1948." True, but God promised that it would never cease being a nation, but it did cease being a nation for 1878 Years. There's only ONE way that that prophecy can be true, if God is referring to the spiritual nation of Israel, the Israel of God that Paul speaks of, which began in 30 A.D., but continues on forever. That is those who are Jews inwardly, the body of Christ, Jewish and Gentile believers. Prior to 30 A.D., God's people were called the remnant of Israel, which means ONLY those Jews who believed God and proselytes who believed, like Abraham did. Not all Jews did - in fact, the majority of Jews did not believe and obey God.

Even God confirmed this by saying that it is the SEED of ISRAEL that will not cease being a nation. Jeremiah 31:36 We, Gentile and Jewish believers, are the "seed of Abraham" which is synonymous with the "seed of Israel". Obviously, Jacob, who was called Israel, was the seed of Abraham, being a man of faith. "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 Christ is Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:16) and all who belong to Him are as well - Jew and Gentile.

Then God confirms this again in Jeremiah 31:37:
"Thus says the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the SEED of ISRAEL for all that they have done, says the Lord."

The nation of Israel has been cast off. It was dissolved in 70 A.D. But God will never cast off the SEED of ISRAEL, those who have the faith of Abraham.
There's nothing special about the nation of Israel today, except for those in it who are part of the true Israel, the Israel of God, the disciples of Jesus.

 

[Theophilus]

23 But when He was in Jerusalem during the Passover Feast, many believed in His name [identified themselves with His party] after seeing His signs (wonders, miracles) which He was doing.
24 But Jesus [for His part] did not trust Himself to them, because He knew all [men];
25 And He did not need anyone to bear witness concerning man [needed no evidence from anyone about men], for He Himself knew what was in human nature. [He could read men’s hearts.]
John 2:23–25.

These are the ones that fall away. The point is that people claim and actually do, in a sense, believe in Jesus for any number of reasons other than a legitimate desire to receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life that only he offers.

Some believe (like these in John 2:23–25) because they are swept away by the sensationalism and excitement of supernatural activity.

Some believe because by identifying with the local church they find instant friendships and social activities and a place to belong.

Some believe because they are looking for a way to soothe their guilty conscience or to experience personal affirmation, or because they long for transcendent meaning in their lives, and religion appears to provide it.

Some believe because of pressure from family or friends to conform.

Some believe because they find Christianity intellectually satisfying.

I could go on citing reasons people believe that have little or nothing to do with genuine, heartfelt repentance and love for Christ and a passion to follow him but I think I've made my point.

If they were truly saved they would never walk away.

 

[dwight92070]

"If they were truly saved they would never walk away."
Really, how do you know that? I am amazed at how many Christians think they have the knowledge or the authority to emphatically make this statement, as if they had some inside information about men that is ALWAYS true. Truly saved people would NEVER do this or that? Really, how do you know the hearts of men so well, saved or unsaved?
The truth is, NO scripture to backs it up. On the contrary, there are tons of warnings to the TRULY SAVED. Why would they need ANY warnings if your authoritative statement is correct??
In fact, most who claim this is true, base it only on their feelings or intuition or on what's popular among other Christians, NOT on the scripture. Which is why they seldom, if ever, quote a scripture to support their claim.
I know, somebody's going to say, "What warnings?" My answer? When was the last time you read your Bible?
It's really tiresome, having to repeat the same (warning) verses over and over, again and again, which I have done on here before - and others have done that too. And you who believe the first statement in this post, usually just seem to ignore ALL of the warnings, as if they are all cancelled out by the promises of God. Yes, there are many precious promises, and we should and can hold onto them, IF we meet the conditions. IF we don't, then the promise is useless. There are very few promises of God concerning salvation in the Bible that do not have a condition, maybe none.

 

[Theophilus]

"If they were truly saved they would never walk away."
Really, how do you know that? I am amazed at how many Christians think they have the knowledge or the authority to emphatically make this statement, as if they had some inside information about men that is ALWAYS true. Truly saved people would NEVER do this or that? Really, how do you know the hearts of men so well, saved or unsaved?
The truth is, NO scripture to backs it up. On the contrary, there are tons of warnings to the TRULY SAVED. Why would they need ANY warnings if your authoritative statement is correct??
In fact, most who claim this is true, base it only on their feelings or intuition or on what's popular among other Christians, NOT on the scripture. Which is why they seldom, if ever, quote a scripture to support their claim.
I know, somebody's going to say, "What warnings?" My answer? When was the last time you read your Bible?
It's really tiresome, having to repeat the same (warning) verses over and over, again and again, which I have done on here before - and others have done that too. And you who believe the first statement in this post, usually just seem to ignore ALL of the warnings, as if they are all cancelled out by the promises of God. Yes, there are many precious promises, and we should and can hold onto them, IF we meet the conditions. IF we don't, then the promise is useless. There are very few promises of God concerning salvation in the Bible that do not have a condition, maybe none.

I'm going by what Jesus said. It's in the Bible!

John 6:64
However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. John 6:66

 

[dwight92070]

One of the most common verses that Christians quote to say that true believers will never walk away is 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

But, in order for those Christians to make this say what they want it to, they have to take it totally out of context.

If we want to take it IN context, we need to ask, "Who are 'they'?" That word is used 6 times in this verse.
Clearly "they" refers to "antichrists" in the previous verse, verse 18:
"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know it is the last hour."
Then verse 19 - THEY (obviously, the antichrists) went out from us, ..." They are not just nonbelievers, they are disguised, nonbelieving leaders with evil motives, or at least they want to be leaders in the church, even though they are against Jesus. But over time, genuine believers are a threat to them - they might get exposed - so they leave.

Christ was a leader, so an "antichrist" must be a leader who does not support Christ; in fact, he is an enemy of Christ - he could be called a false teacher or a false prophet. So if we substitute the word "antichrist" for the word "they" in verse 19, we get a pretty clear understanding of the verse. It is NOT referring simply to a nonbeliever who pretends to be "one of the sheep" in the "herd", or a nonbeliever who thinks he is a believer, or even a nonbeliever who doesn't really know if he is a believer or not. Any of these would not necessarily be a threat to the church, but an "antichrist" WOULD BE.

So, the reasoning goes, if true believers walk away from God, they were not really true believers to begin with. Because true believers will NEVER walk away from God. On the contrary, many do. Not only does the word tell us that they do, but it WARNS true believers against walking away.

 

[Tranquil]

I'm going by what Jesus said. It's in the Bible!

John 6:64
However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. John 6:66

They didn't really believe in their hearts that's why they were able to walk away. They never really wanted what Jesus had to offer.

The term believe, when referring to salvation, is always used in the present tense, as is the case in John 6:47. The implication is that a believer is one who is always believing. Therefore, If you're not believing you're not part of the family of believers. You were only a visitor. Once a Believer always a believer

 

[Parker]

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God’s grace. His grace is enough to keep us safe and secure.

The sacrifice Jesus made in the cross was enough to see us all the way home. That's where our faith comes in. If you walk away from Jesus you never had real faith in him.

God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.

And although you at one time were estranged and alienated from Him and were of hostile attitude of mind in your wicked activities,
22 Yet now has [Christ, the Messiah] reconciled [you to God] in the body of His flesh through death, in order to present you holy and faultless and irreproachable in His [the Father’s] presence.
23 [And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven, and of which [Gospel] I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:21–23

And this is the message [the message of promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way].
6 [So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].
7 But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].
8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1 John 1:5–10

3 And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).
4 Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God’s law by transgression or neglect—being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).
5 You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [essentially and forever].
6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].
1 John 3:3–6.

For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].
28 Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?
30 For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people.
31 It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!
Heb 10:26–31.

THEREFORE THEN, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses [who have borne testimony to the Truth], let us strip off and throw aside every encumbrance (unnecessary weight) and that sin which so readily (deftly and cleverly) clings to and entangles us, and let us run with patient endurance and steady and active persistence the appointed course of the race that is set before us
Heb 12:1.

 

[dwight92070]

I'm going by what Jesus said. It's in the Bible!

John 6:64
However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. John 6:66

Okay, then let's look at what the Bible says here. This same chapter says it twice - they WERE His disciples: verse 60 and verse 66 - they did believe, UNTIL this "difficult statement - verse 60" came out of Jesus' mouth about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. This caused them to stumble (verse 61) - they WERE walking with Him, believing in Him, with no problems, but suddenly, Jesus' words were too much for them, and they fell away. It says in verse 66, that they no longer walked with Him - so obviously they WERE disciples who WERE walking with Him.
It does not say that they were never really disciples to begin with, as you are implying. The Bible calls them "His disciples", not disguised or fake disciples. Verse 64 says that Jesus knew "who it was that would betray Him". You don't betray someone, if you never had loyalty and love for them to begin with.
They appear to be the "one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy (they are believers); yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word (Jesus' word about eating His body and drinking His blood), immediately he falls away."
You don't fall away from the faith, if you never had faith to begin with.

So we have genuine believers, disciples who believed in Jesus for awhile, but when His words demanded that they stretch their faith and trust in Him even more, it was too much for them, and they abandoned any faith they had in Him at the beginning.

A classic case of disciples who were truly saved, but then they walked away.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jeremiah prophesied of a future New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31, which actually began when Jesus died ("This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20 in about 30 A.D). So the New Covenant didn't actually begin until approximately 630 years after Jeremiah prophesied about it, that is 30 A.D.
But Jeremiah continues his prophecy and says in Jeremiah 31:35:
"Thus says the Lord who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of Hosts is His name):
"If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, then the SEED of ISRAEL shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever."

So God promised that the SEED of ISRAEL would never stop being a nation forever.

But Israel, the nation, did cease being a nation from 70 A.D. until 1948, which is 1878 years!

So was Jeremiah mistaken or did God not fulfill His promise? No and no. There's a big difference between the nation of Israel and the seed of Israel.

"The SEED of ISRAEL did continue as a nation, when Jesus built His church. It began in 30 A.D. when Jesus died and was raised and sent the Holy Spirit to His disciples. This is also the start of the new covenant - and that nation (also called the church, the Israel of God -Galatians 6:16, the body of Christ, Jew and Gentile believers) continues to exist to this day, and will continue until His 2nd coming. Those who believed God in the Old Testament were called the remnant of Israel. Those who believe God and Jesus in the New Covenant are called Christians.

"But you (Jewish and Gentile believers)are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you were once not a people (here Paul seems to be speaking primarily to Gentile believers who once did not believe, but it would fit Jewish believers also, who once were not a part of the remnant of Israel), but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter 2:9-10

Did you notice the nation called the Israel of God (Jewish and Gentile believers) (Galatians 6:16) began at the same exact time that the New Covenant began - 30 A.D.? It was called the remnant of Israel in the Old Testament. Today it's also called the body of Christ, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

So if anyone tells you that believing Gentiles are not part of the New Covenant, you know they are wrong. Gentiles have been in and part of the New Covenant since day one, when Christ created His church -30 A.D. Although Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, look at all the Gentiles that he ministered to - the Samaritans, the synagogue official, the Centurion, the Syrophoenician woman, multitudes from Syria (Matthew 4:24) were healed, etc. Sure, not all of them became disciples, but many did, and when they did, they were part of the remnant of Israel and after Christ's resurrection, became part of the Israel of God, the ones who were Jews inwardly.

In fact, if the New Covenant was ONLY for the NATION of ISRAEL, then it only lasted 40 years, from 30 A.D. to 70 A.D., when the nation of Israel ceased to exist.

Some may object and say: "Well, Israel became a nation again in 1948." True, but God promised that it would never cease being a nation, but it did cease being a nation for 1878 Years. There's only ONE way that that prophecy can be true, if God is referring to the spiritual nation of Israel, the Israel of God that Paul speaks of, which began in 30 A.D., but continues on forever. That is those who are Jews inwardly, the body of Christ, Jewish and Gentile believers. Prior to 30 A.D., God's people were called the remnant of Israel, which means ONLY those Jews who believed God and proselytes who believed, like Abraham did. Not all Jews did - in fact, the majority of Jews did not believe and obey God.

Even God confirmed this by saying that it is the SEED of ISRAEL that will not cease being a nation. Jeremiah 31:36 We, Gentile and Jewish believers, are the "seed of Abraham" which is synonymous with the "seed of Israel". Obviously, Jacob, who was called Israel, was the seed of Abraham, being a man of faith. "If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 Christ is Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:16) and all who belong to Him are as well - Jew and Gentile.

Then God confirms this again in Jeremiah 31:37:
"Thus says the Lord: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the SEED of ISRAEL for all that they have done, says the Lord."

The nation of Israel has been cast off. It was dissolved in 70 A.D. But God will never cast off the SEED of ISRAEL, those who have the faith of Abraham.
There's nothing special about the nation of Israel today, except for those in it who are part of the true Israel, the Israel of God, the disciples of Jesus.

The SEED of Abraham is not plural, but singular, and refers to Jesus. Those who are in Him, both Jew and Gentile, are part of the "royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession".

 

[dwight92070]

Amen, He IS the New Covenant. When we drink His blood, this is the New Covenant in His blood.

"This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20

 

[dwight92070]

"And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed. and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 We are the body of Christ, "And He is the Head of the body, the church, Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." Colossians 1:18

 

[jeremiah1five]

What did John (the baptizer) say in Matt 3:8-10?
He is saying that it does not matter who your biological parents are. Being Jewish is not a guarantee of receiving the reward of the promise. It is bearing fruit that matters.

No, it is a biological Covenant. It was a covenant with Abraham, then his biological son, Isaac, then with Abraham's biological grandson, Jacob, whom God changed his name to Israel. Then the covenant was with Jacob's biological twelve sons identified as the children of Jacob/Israel.
IF God made covenant with Abraham and his seed and God GUARANTEED with an oath to do this, that, and the other thing, those things are reward or benefit of the covenant. And since the Holy Spirit had not come then there is no "fruit" at all at this time and in this covenant (and I suppose you mean 'personal fruit.') In the scheme of things God could use stones to raise up children of Abraham but He would not do it. John's statements were not based on reality but on effect. God could use blades of grass to 'raise up' seed of Abraham but due to His decrees installed in the human birth process "after their kind" John's words were for effect. NO ONE could bear 'fruit' without the Holy Spirit and He didn't come until 3 years later.

And many of the Jews of that day were not bearing good fruit. So John prophesied that they would be cut off, because the ax was already laid at the root of their trees.

God made covenant with Abraham and his seed. Do you understand God is a God that keeps His promises? Although each covenant is self-contained, they are also each part of His whole redemption plan of those in covenant. Many times, Israel resorted to idol-worship in their history, and they received judgment from God. Many died. BUT THEY DIED IN COVENANT. God may have used Assyrians or Babylonians against His people and thousands may have died physically, but God is a God who keeps His promises even to the fourth, fifth, twentieth generation and if they died under God's judgment, they all died while in covenant and are secure in that covenant BECAUSE God keeps His promises.

But then we are told that other branches, wild branches (Gentiles) would be grafted in and become part of the tree even though they were not part of the cultivated tree by nature. This is not "Gentile propaganda" but Scriptural truth.

WHERE are "we told" Gentiles are the wild branches Saul refers to in Romans? No, that is YOUR interpretation. Nowhere in Scripture are Gentiles called an Olive tree. So, if there is no evidence in Scripture that Gentiles are an Olive tree then you are making it up.

Yes, toward Israel, but Israel is not those who are biologically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is those who believe in, and make their Lord, Jesus the Messiah.

And so, what? God doesn't have to keep His promises He made to Abraham and his seed (Israel)? Is there even a provision in the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants that a Jew from the covenant-bearing twelve tribes MUST "believe in and make their Lord Jesus the Messiah." Again, you're making things up at the expense of the three promise-keeping God and His covenants.
FIRST, there is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant, nor in the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31. NONE. But throughout the Hebrew Scriptures God repeatedly allows Israel to slip into sin and without any provision or requirement of faith rescues Israel from themselves and their enemies - without any call from God to faith. He just saves. Period.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pwounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities:
The chastisement of our peace was upon him;
And with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
Yet he opened not his mouth:
He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
So he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment:
And who shall declare his generation?
For he was cut off out of the land of the living:
For the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked,
And with the rich in his death;
Because he had done no violence,
Neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
Isaiah 53:4–10.

Do you read in the above passages of God calling Israel to faith before He saves them? NO.
In every prophecy and covenant God makes there is a self-contained provision for God to save His people and He doesn't do so for their sakes, BUT for His Name's sake, BECAUSE OF HIS COVENANT AND PROPHETIC PROMISES.

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Dt 7:1–9.

Israel can go after other God's, but God will keep His promises. Israel while serving false gods CANNOT exert ANY faith towards God. But what does God do? BECAUSE OF PRIOR PROMISES/COVENANT(s) HE JUST UP'S AND SAVES/DELIVERS/RESCUES His people. Thousands may die under God's judgment and lose their physical lives, BUT BECAUSE OF COVENANT AND GOD'S PROMISES THEY ARE ETERNALLY SECURE. There's a reason why Saul says:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

HOW AND WHY? Read what Saul says afterwards:

26 as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom. 11:25–27.

Again, there is no requirement or provision for Israel to "accept Jesus as Messiah" or to have faith. God just says clearly, "THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." He says it again in another place:

For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:34.

Israel may be an UNFAITHful Bride, but God is a faithful Husband.
Israel may be an UNFAITHful people, but God is a faithful God.

WHEN YOU understand redemptive history God has through the centuries ESTABLISHED WITH Israel, THEN you will begin to understand God's attitude TOWARDS Gentiles.
When YOU master the truths contained in the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, THEN you will better understand the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation.
Too bad you don't.

Luke may have been a Hellenized Jew, or he may have been a Gentile, we don't know. But he wrote to a clearly Gentile audience. He was not seeking to convince Jews of the Lordship of Jesus, but to bring Gentiles into the Church.

The purpose of Luke was NOT to bring anyone into anything. He only documented through eyewitness accounts THE HISTORY of Israel's Messiah TO the Jewish people. He does the same thing writing Acts. He only recorded the things that happened. What we have to do as we do with any historical document is look into it to see what the Jewish Church got right, and what the Jewish Church got wrong. But Luke is not trying to bring anyone into anything:

1 FORASMUCH as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Lk 1:1–4.

A lot of gossip and false testimony about Jesus and what took place from age 1-12, and later from age 30-33. Luke investigated and wrote what happened from good, solid witnesses.

1 THE former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Acts 1:1-3.

PROOF that Luke's gospel and his record of about the first 30 years of the Jewish Church (Acts) is written to the Jewish people for ONLY THE JEWS would have ANY interest of things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The oracles of God are no longer solely in the possession of the Jews,

The oracles of God are the Hebrew Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets.
NEVER are the New Covenant writings called "oracles OF GOD.

Not everything that happened with the Holy Spirit was Jewish-only, there was quite a lot happening outside of the Israelite people. Gentiles all over the world were coming to faith in Jesus because the Gospel of Christ was being taught (as early as 37AD, or at least by 44AD) to them by Paul, and many others. And the Gentiles were not being compelled to follow the Law of Moses (be circumcised, observe sabbath, etc.) because that was no longer required for salvation.

Yeah, but NOW you're deep in the Times of the Gentiles.
BUT the Gentiles were NEVER instructed to STEAL Israel's inheritance, or to include themselves in any covenant. But for 1900 years that's what the Gentiles have done because they see there is no more Jewish Temple, there is no more Judaism, and so Gentiles have STOLEN another people's Inheritance and re-interpreted EVERYTHING from a Gentile mindset.
All one has to do is look at the relics of today showing a Caucasian white man with fair complexion and blue eyes and hippy hair with a halo above his head. RE-INTERPRETED Jewish history, substituted Gentile terms, Gentile history, EVERYTHING that for four decades Jesus built His Jewish Church and populated it with Jews as per covenant and prophecies that Gentiles have STOLEN and made everything into a Gentile perspective.
You need to leave me room to respond.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Amen, He IS the New Covenant. When we drink His blood, this is the New Covenant in His blood.

"This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20

See how Gentiles have stolen the covenant God made with the House of Israel?
The Last Supper is the JEWISH Passover.
It's a covenant God and His Christ/Messiah made with the House of Israel.
But Gentiles are guilty of inheritance theft.
A very serious offense against God and against Israel.

 

[Doug Brents]

See how Gentiles have stolen the covenant God made with the House of Israel?
The Last Supper is the JEWISH Passover.
It's a covenant God and His Christ/Messiah made with the House of Israel.
But Gentiles are guilty of inheritance theft.
A very serious offense against God and against Israel.

If you, as a father, adopt a child and write that child into your will as an heir in equal measure to your biological children, does that make the adopted child a thief? No. It makes you a generous father, to have taken in an orphan and made them co-heirs with your other children. And if one of your biological children commits a crime, or in some other way violates your trust, and you write that child out of your will, and forbid them a portion of the inheritance, that does not make the other children (natural or adopted) thieves. It is the father's prerogative to give the inheritance to whomever he wills, and this is exactly what God has done.

No, it is a biological Covenant. It was a covenant with Abraham, then his biological son, Isaac, then with Abraham's biological grandson, Jacob, whom God changed his name to Israel. Then the covenant was with Jacob's biological twelve sons identified as the children of Jacob/Israel.

That is the way it appears, but the promise was made to Abraham's SEED (singular), not to the multitude of children they had. And Jesus alone is that SEED, and those who are "in Him", whether Jew or Gentile, are heirs of that promise.

You need to leave me room to respond.

You have no room on which to stand, because you are completely contradictory to Scripture. God has made the Gentiles equal heirs to the promise He made to Abraham that He would bless the whole world through Abraham's SEED (Jesus). The New Covenant is the the fulfillment of that promise.