Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ahar
- Start date
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
God did not do that. God would not and could not violate His Covenant with Israel.
Gentiles have no covenant with God. I don't know which bible you're reading or just have incorrect understanding/interpretation but God made no covenant with Gentiles. He saves Gentiles without a covenant.
First, Cornelius was a God-Fearer. That is just one cut (circumcision) from being full-fledged Israelite and citizen of Israel. What God was doing was enabling these Hebrew allies the same blessings of Abraham without being in covenant for the Abrahamic Covenant with the sign of circumcision was between God and Abraham and his seed, and Gentiles - whether proselyte or God-Fearer - are not his seed.
The book of Acts is written to Jewish Christians documenting for them the first 30 years of the history of the Jewish Church. Israel is the context or "world" "everyone" "everyman," etc. If you keep in mind the bible is a history of the Jewish people and their God.
Again, written to Jewish Christians and THEY were once away from God and through their Messiah, Redeemer, and King have been again brought near to their Yahweh.
Israel is the natural and spiritual Olive tree. Never in the Scriptures of Law, Psalms, and Prophets are uncircumcised idol-worshiping Gentiles ever called an Olive tree let alone "wild" Olive tree. But Gentile proselytes who have been circumcised and joined to Israel through sacred vows, sacrifices, practicing their religion can be seen as "wild" Olive tree. They are joined to Israel as Israel.
God's people meaning Israel.
Wilber
Active member
So what did Jesus come to do? He came to do the Father’s will. What is the Father’s will? The Father’s will is that all those he has given to the Son be fully and finally saved.
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will and purpose but to do the will and purpose of Him Who sent Me.
39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
John 6:37–40.
Jesus is the Good Shepherd he makes sure that his sheep stay with him. If one goes straight he leaves the 99 and goes and gets that one lost Lamb.
Now look with me at Jesus’s words concerning his sheep in John 10:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. (John 10:27–30)
The fact is to deny eternal security means that when Jesus said he will raise up finally and forever all those given to him by the Father, he he was misleading us. How can Jesus say he will raise up all the Father gives him if in fact he will not, because some who truly believe in him finally and forever fall away and forfeit eternal life? He's just not going to let that happen. A truly saved person that backslides will find their life so miserable that they will return to abide in Jesus.
Here's what we're told not to do.
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Jesus is more than able, he is the author of salvation. He is the one that makes us eternally secure. We are to be obedient servants and to abide in him. Were able to do then because we are saved and we realize how much he loves us and what an honor it is to be servants bought and paid for by his precious blood.
37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will and purpose but to do the will and purpose of Him Who sent Me.
39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.
40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
John 6:37–40.
Jesus is the Good Shepherd he makes sure that his sheep stay with him. If one goes straight he leaves the 99 and goes and gets that one lost Lamb.
Now look with me at Jesus’s words concerning his sheep in John 10:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. (John 10:27–30)
The fact is to deny eternal security means that when Jesus said he will raise up finally and forever all those given to him by the Father, he he was misleading us. How can Jesus say he will raise up all the Father gives him if in fact he will not, because some who truly believe in him finally and forever fall away and forfeit eternal life? He's just not going to let that happen. A truly saved person that backslides will find their life so miserable that they will return to abide in Jesus.
Here's what we're told not to do.
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Jesus is more than able, he is the author of salvation. He is the one that makes us eternally secure. We are to be obedient servants and to abide in him. Were able to do then because we are saved and we realize how much he loves us and what an honor it is to be servants bought and paid for by his precious blood.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Every promise of God is conditional. Either repent, believe and continue to believe, abide in Him, have faith and keep the faith, humble yourself, resist the devil, continue in His kindness, continue is His word, obey, love one another, forgive, endure to the end, flee immorality, keep yourselves from idols, etc., etc.
Why would it be any other way? He wants a relationship with us. If we simply claim His promises and do nothing else, what kind of a relationship is that? That would be a one-way relationship, which is no relationship at all. But if we continue in faith, humility, endurance, prayer, abiding in Him, abiding in His word, obedience, love, resisting the devil, etc. - NOW we're talking about a two-way relationship, as it should be.
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
"But the one who has heard and has not done what I said, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49
Why would it be any other way? He wants a relationship with us. If we simply claim His promises and do nothing else, what kind of a relationship is that? That would be a one-way relationship, which is no relationship at all. But if we continue in faith, humility, endurance, prayer, abiding in Him, abiding in His word, obedience, love, resisting the devil, etc. - NOW we're talking about a two-way relationship, as it should be.
"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and do not do what I say? Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and does them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
"But the one who has heard and has not done what I said, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49
Last edited:
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
For those that don't know...
In the Old Testament the Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. It is HE Whom God promised Israel to put in their inward parts to lead, guide, convict, speak to except instead of doing it in tablets of stone and from without God does it on fleshly tables of the 'heart' and from within.
Show me in Jeremaih 31:31-34 where Gentiles are identified. Because from what I read the New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (northern kingdom) and Judah (southern kingdom.) There are no Gentiles even remotely named or identified. You have too much Gentile interpretation in you. Read the Hebrew Scriptures like a Hebrew - if that's even possible with your bias - and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Why do so many Gentiles miss the truth of Saul's words.
The Galatian letter as with all the New Covenant writings are written to Jewish Christians. Chapter three Saul is addressing Jewish Christians and addressing the Law, their history, prophecies, their religion, and the effect of Israel's Messiah on the prior covenants (Abrahamic and Mosaic) and their concern as to their standing and relation to those covenants now that Messiah has come and they have had experience with the Holy Spirit of Promise. Saul says it clearly:
23 But before faith came, we [Jews] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [Jews] schoolmaster to bring us [Jews] unto Christ, that we [Jews] might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [Jews] are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all [Jews] the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [Jews] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [Jews] are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [Jews] be Christ’s, then are ye [still Jews and] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:22–29.
The promise is to Abraham and to his seed and Gentiles are not his seed. They have never been "heirs" with Abraham or his seed (Israel). Never. Not then, and definitely not now. It's a Jewish Covenant with Jewish history, culture, religion, persons, prophecies, promises, and Jewish Messiah. So, let's leave them to what belongs to them and not try to steal THEIR inheritance according to the promise God gave to Abraham.
There is nothing of the sort. Gentiles are not even named or identified in the Abrahamic (Gen. 17) and New Covenants (Jer 31.) You've been taught too much Gentile error and lies. Read the Scripture and come to the knowledge of the truth.
The other sheep are Samaritans. NOT Gentiles.
Peter is quoting Deuteronomy to Jewish Christians. They alone would understand the significance of what Peter is addressing in his two epistles.
The Samaritan was half-Jew at least but still in Covenant with God.
If the woman was truly Gentile she would have worshiped their millions of gods and idols. Read the passages. She was a daughter of Abraham and waited for Messiah.
Clifford
Active member
All true. But even if we blow it and fall short God's will still comes to pass. We may spend 40 years trying to make an 11-day journey but God still keep his promise.
The generation that left Egypt amidst unprecedented and wondrous events did not enter the Promised Land. That will only occur after those 20 and older perish in the desert. It is the next generation that will inherit the Land.
It's always better to do a God's way, His way always works. Eternal security is not about getting saved and then living however you please.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Gentiles were never under the Law nor part of any Hebrew Covenants.
WHO do you think Moses got the Law from? A part of it was written with the finger of God. C'mon now. Get biblical or get on.
Last edited by a moderator:
Doug Brents
Well-known member
On this, dwight, we agree. It is absolutely possible for a person to believe, be saved, and then forfeit salvation through unbelief. This is exemplified in Rom 11:20-21, Matt 13:18-23, and 1 John 1:7. Those branches that have been grafted in (are "in Christ", saved) can be cut back off if they go back to unbelief. The Word can be covered over by the cares of this world, or uprooted by tribulation if not supported early in the growth of the soul. And we are continually cleansed as long as we abide in the Light, but if we fail to abide, then we are not continually cleansed.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
ONLY IF one is Hebrew and in Covenant with God can claim any promise that's contained in Covenant with God.
God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. NONE.
Too much Gentile propaganda to even be useful to God for the Spirit of Truth CANNOT AND WILL NOT use error or lies. He's the Spirit of TRUTH!
Hello?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Both of you are posting error and falsehoods not found in the Scripture.
Get that Gentile log out of your eyesz.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Correct, Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses, but they are under the New Covenant, and they have the Old Covenant Scriptures to study to know what the Jews knew before Christ. But then, it takes a serious, honest reading of Scripture to know these truths. Have you found them?
As I stated, Scripture says that the OT was designed and planned from the beginning to be temporary, and to lead us to Christ. The Law of Moses is obsolete and the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and replaced with the New Covenant in Jesus' blood.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Ephesians is a book written to the mostly Gentile congregation in Ephesus. And in Eph 3:6 it says that very clearly that the Gentiles who believe the Gospel and are added to the Church are now coheirs with Christ, and members of the Body of Christ (the Bride of Christ).
"For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the administration of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before briefly. 4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power."
dwight92070
Well-known member
Dwight - You cling to all His promises, but very few of His commands. "Why do you call Me Lord, but don't do what I say?"
"He's not going to let that happen"? quoting you above. So He will force you to come back to Him, even if you don't want to? So He will violate your free will and make you stay with Him? "A truly saved person that backslides will find their life so miserable that they will return to abide in Jesus?
I guess then, that the apostle Peter didn't really know what he was talking about in 2 Peter 2:20 - "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."
Not every truly saved person that strays from the truth, comes back. Thank God - some do. But you can't make that some sort of universal rule, that they all will return, because not all do.
If it's impossible for a truly saved person to apostatize, then God has removed that person's free will. Even if he wants to rebel and leave God, God won't let him, because God has removed his free will? That's what you're saying. But God never removes our free will. We will always have the ability to reject Him. If we don't, then we're just puppets, not people who willingly love Him, but once we get saved, He forces us to "love" Him. That is also what you're saying.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Yup - I already did 60 years ago.
Wilber
Active member
That's a lot of things to respond to. I'll try to go down the list. Let's try the first one in bold. In my post that you're quoting I wrote this: "We are to be obedient servants and to abide in him" That makes your reply Null and void.
The next one in bold I never said anything about him forcing you to come back even if you don't want to so violating your free will "you" put that in there again Null And void.
But just to clarify my statement think of The Prodigal Son feeding the pigs after he wasted his inheritance. Did the father force him to come back to his house? No he came to his senses is what the Bible tells us. Think perhaps God had anything to do with what was in that parable? Like trying to teach us something.
Perhaps Peter who you quoted is also giving a warning. Notice the language "for if". That means it hasn't happened but if it did happen they could be very easily discouraged and easy targets for Satan to deceive and make their salvation ineffective as far as storing up treasures in heaven. And being a good steward.
Next one in bold about people that backslide not coming back. You're claiming that I'm making a universal rule and I'm not. Back to the Null and void One more time. Rather than a Universal rule I quoted what the Bible teaches. About judging another man's salvation/
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. Romans 14:4
You brought up free will
I never said that at all which makes it Null and void.
Here's what I said:
We are to be obedient servants and to abide in him. Were able to do them because we are saved and we realize how much he loves us and what an honor it is to be servants bought and paid for by his precious blood.
This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News. Romans 1:1
A bondservant is one owned by another. They do not have anything that is their own—even their time belongs to their master. They wake up each day seeking to know and do the will of their master above all else. Do we live to do the Lord’s will, doing “all things for the sake of His gospel”? Do we take up our crosses each day, dying to our own desires and seeking to do what He gives us to do? That's what we have the free will to do.
So if free will is what can get you unsaved I don't want anything to do with it. Give me what Jesus said in John 7:17, “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.” Fundamental to understanding the teachings or revelations of Scripture is our willingness to do His will. The degree that we live the life of a bondservant is the level that we can understand His teachings or prophecy.
Wilber
Active member
So you're saved and you know it and your life will surely show it.
Mustardseed
New member
What does a good shepherd do with wandering sheep? He wouldn’t be a good shepherd if he didn’t restore them when they wander. Our Eternal Security is ultimately dependent on God’s character and commitment, not on ours. Folks may say, “If we change our desire to remain saved, we lose our salvation.” No. We can’t lose it, not because we can’t change, but because God can’t.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
And on the other hand, NOBODY comes to Christ except they be DRAWN by Father (John 6:44).
In EVERYTHING, God moves first.
