As already noted you do not know what truth is and therefore cerbrate error.
BTW no one has addressed all rebuttal to the Calvinist position while you address none
Ephesians 1:4 Explained
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
BTW no one has addressed all rebuttal to the Calvinist position while you address none
brightfame52
Well-known member
You not able to receive the truth. I have seen others give you the truth and you cant receive it. Some of them have took time to answer all the verses you swamp them with, and you just ignore it like they didnt even take the time. I have seen it numerous times and not just on this forum platform.
Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Agree 100%~it would do the poster, and the author, he is quoting to practice what they are teaching.
Why did Paul mentioned that our election to salvation, was before the foundation of the world? We do not need to look very far for our answer to this question.
Romans 9:11
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
”The reason why is clear, that we would see that salvation from sin and condemnation is not of our works, but of God, that calleth who he will by his grace and mercy.
Yes, God's election of pure grace is in Christ, whom God chose to be the person who would secure eternal life for his elect by his obedience and righteousness.
Psalms 89:19
“Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.”
One more thought before moving on.
This false version used by this gentleman has perverted the truth. Christ's perfect life of obedience on the behalf of God's elect does not leave us just blameless~but his perfect obedience to the law of God on our behalf secured us WITHOUT blame before God' law. Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Minister's life should be blameless, (not sinless) yet still have shortcomings in their life. (See 1st Timothy 3:2) God's children are without blame, they have the perfect righteousness of God imputed to them, based upon what Jesus secured for them.
I'm coming back to finish the whole number one post on this thread. It will take a few post. I'm sure.
Rockson
Well-known member
Yeah that's basically many times their way....never, ever, ever allow themselves to be put on the defensive even though they make themselves look foolish not to answer questions. Not all but I'd say many of them aren't interested in dialogue but rather indoctrination. It's be nice to see at least some of them give up their training on how to stonewall genuine sincere questions asked of them.
civic
Well-known member
yes even as a calvinist myself for many years on the other forum most of the other calvinists did not engage the text or dialogue but used ad homs, questions and one liners. There were a few very astute ones but that was the exception not the rule.
Believe
Active member
Ephesians 1:4 really explained: It's a conundrum I tell ya. This looks good also Tim Stratton has argued why “Calvinism is Impossible.” By “impossible” Stratton means logically impossible when held alongside other essential Christian doctrines.
Dr Jerry Walls writes:
The issue with contention that God can choose to whom He has salvific love is that it then redefines love to be simply meaningless. That is, can one really say God loves someone despite willingly not choosing them to be saved? This argument is evident in premises (2) – (3) of Dr Walls’ argument [above].
So whilst Calvinist may affirm that God does love everyone, they seek to smuggle in an account of love that is profoundly at odds with the conviction that God desires the true flourishing of all persons that is, God is able to love someone and yet not desire to have an eternal relationship with Him.
For the author [of John], God as light and God as love become the theological grounds for ethics for the Christian community; the two are deeply connected. Walking in the light for the Christian requires not only living a life that is truthful and pure but also to love one’s brother or sister, seeking the good and best for the other. The reasoning for why believers are to do this is found in God’s demonstration of love toward us by sending his own Son who died for the sins of the world. Further, failure to love is a failure to be in the light of God himself. The logic for the writer of 1 John [referring to 1 John 4:8] is twofold. On the one hand, God cannot do other than what His nature allows, yet, on the other, God does not require of us, with respect to moral goodness and love, what is not true of himself. God’s moral goodness (light) grounds God’s love and God’s love requires that one love one’s brothers and sisters, seeking out their best; failure to love means that one is not walking in the light
Moreover, to love is to seek what is best for the other, as is exemplified in the heart of the interpenetrating relationship of the divine Trinity. Thus in his aseity and sovereignty, while not depending on or needing anything for his own existence or being—-a belief we might derive from the cosmological argument—-God, nevertheless, out of love, seeks out the best for his creatures. What is best for God’s human creatures is for them to be in union (fellowship) with their creator and with other humans, living a pure and sinless life, while loving God and others. Grace motivated by perfect love does not fail to be grace—-amazing grace.
___________________________________________________________________________
Other issues arise if in fact God can “choose” to “love salvificly” certain individuals.
(1) Human beings are capable of demonstrating greater love than God.
I don’t believe there would be a person on the face of the earth that would not choose their child to be saved. Even, in some cases – a parent would rather spend eternity in Hell in order to seek eternal salvation for their child. Paul the Apostle exhibits this characteristic as per Romans 9:1-3 (KJV):
Therefore, the conundrum is self evident.
freethinkingministries.com
Dr Jerry Walls writes:
Dr Walls gives a great defense of this argument in his work, Why No Classical Theist, Let Alone Orthodox Christian, Should Ever be a Compatibilist.
The issue with contention that God can choose to whom He has salvific love is that it then redefines love to be simply meaningless. That is, can one really say God loves someone despite willingly not choosing them to be saved? This argument is evident in premises (2) – (3) of Dr Walls’ argument [above].
So whilst Calvinist may affirm that God does love everyone, they seek to smuggle in an account of love that is profoundly at odds with the conviction that God desires the true flourishing of all persons that is, God is able to love someone and yet not desire to have an eternal relationship with Him.
For the author [of John], God as light and God as love become the theological grounds for ethics for the Christian community; the two are deeply connected. Walking in the light for the Christian requires not only living a life that is truthful and pure but also to love one’s brother or sister, seeking the good and best for the other. The reasoning for why believers are to do this is found in God’s demonstration of love toward us by sending his own Son who died for the sins of the world. Further, failure to love is a failure to be in the light of God himself. The logic for the writer of 1 John [referring to 1 John 4:8] is twofold. On the one hand, God cannot do other than what His nature allows, yet, on the other, God does not require of us, with respect to moral goodness and love, what is not true of himself. God’s moral goodness (light) grounds God’s love and God’s love requires that one love one’s brothers and sisters, seeking out their best; failure to love means that one is not walking in the light
Moreover, to love is to seek what is best for the other, as is exemplified in the heart of the interpenetrating relationship of the divine Trinity. Thus in his aseity and sovereignty, while not depending on or needing anything for his own existence or being—-a belief we might derive from the cosmological argument—-God, nevertheless, out of love, seeks out the best for his creatures. What is best for God’s human creatures is for them to be in union (fellowship) with their creator and with other humans, living a pure and sinless life, while loving God and others. Grace motivated by perfect love does not fail to be grace—-amazing grace.
___________________________________________________________________________
Other issues arise if in fact God can “choose” to “love salvificly” certain individuals.
(1) Human beings are capable of demonstrating greater love than God.
I don’t believe there would be a person on the face of the earth that would not choose their child to be saved. Even, in some cases – a parent would rather spend eternity in Hell in order to seek eternal salvation for their child. Paul the Apostle exhibits this characteristic as per Romans 9:1-3 (KJV):
If God by definition is a “maximally great being”. That is, [a] being than which it is not possible that there be a greater'[18] and human beings are able to demonstrate love that is greater than God’s demonstration, then God is not a “maximally great being”.
Therefore, the conundrum is self evident.
Ephesians 1:4: How Calvinistic Exegesis is Logically Impossible | Free Thinking Ministries
In another article found on FreeThinkingMinistries.com, Tim Stratton has argued why “Calvinism is Impossible.” By “impossible” Stratton means logically impossible when held alongside other essential…
freethinkingministries.com
civic
Well-known member
ExcellentEphesians 1:4 really explained: It's a conundrum I tell ya. This looks good also Tim Stratton has argued why “Calvinism is Impossible.” By “impossible” Stratton means logically impossible when held alongside other essential Christian doctrines.
Dr Jerry Walls writes:
Dr Walls gives a great defense of this argument in his work, Why No Classical Theist, Let Alone Orthodox Christian, Should Ever be a Compatibilist.
The issue with contention that God can choose to whom He has salvific love is that it then redefines love to be simply meaningless. That is, can one really say God loves someone despite willingly not choosing them to be saved? This argument is evident in premises (2) – (3) of Dr Walls’ argument [above].
So whilst Calvinist may affirm that God does love everyone, they seek to smuggle in an account of love that is profoundly at odds with the conviction that God desires the true flourishing of all persons that is, God is able to love someone and yet not desire to have an eternal relationship with Him.
For the author [of John], God as light and God as love become the theological grounds for ethics for the Christian community; the two are deeply connected. Walking in the light for the Christian requires not only living a life that is truthful and pure but also to love one’s brother or sister, seeking the good and best for the other. The reasoning for why believers are to do this is found in God’s demonstration of love toward us by sending his own Son who died for the sins of the world. Further, failure to love is a failure to be in the light of God himself. The logic for the writer of 1 John [referring to 1 John 4:8] is twofold. On the one hand, God cannot do other than what His nature allows, yet, on the other, God does not require of us, with respect to moral goodness and love, what is not true of himself. God’s moral goodness (light) grounds God’s love and God’s love requires that one love one’s brothers and sisters, seeking out their best; failure to love means that one is not walking in the light
Moreover, to love is to seek what is best for the other, as is exemplified in the heart of the interpenetrating relationship of the divine Trinity. Thus in his aseity and sovereignty, while not depending on or needing anything for his own existence or being—-a belief we might derive from the cosmological argument—-God, nevertheless, out of love, seeks out the best for his creatures. What is best for God’s human creatures is for them to be in union (fellowship) with their creator and with other humans, living a pure and sinless life, while loving God and others. Grace motivated by perfect love does not fail to be grace—-amazing grace.
___________________________________________________________________________
Other issues arise if in fact God can “choose” to “love salvificly” certain individuals.
(1) Human beings are capable of demonstrating greater love than God.
I don’t believe there would be a person on the face of the earth that would not choose their child to be saved. Even, in some cases – a parent would rather spend eternity in Hell in order to seek eternal salvation for their child. Paul the Apostle exhibits this characteristic as per Romans 9:1-3 (KJV):
If God by definition is a “maximally great being”. That is, [a] being than which it is not possible that there be a greater'[18] and human beings are able to demonstrate love that is greater than God’s demonstration, then God is not a “maximally great being”.
Therefore, the conundrum is self evident.
Ephesians 1:4: How Calvinistic Exegesis is Logically Impossible | Free Thinking Ministries
In another article found on FreeThinkingMinistries.com, Tim Stratton has argued why “Calvinism is Impossible.” By “impossible” Stratton means logically impossible when held alongside other essential…
That would be nice, but i do not expect it having experienced so much of it.
Again you do not have a clue as to what truth is, and you confirm it with your inability to address rebuttal
Did you examine the context to see who the us are or did you just assume it unconditionally select men
Ephesians 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Paul is writing to believers, those who are in Christ. They had acquired all their heavenly blessings in Christ. Including God's choice for them to be presented holy and blameless before him in love
They became in Christ in time
Romans 16:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
having believed
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Romans 9:11
“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Another assumption. You assume this speaks of salvation as opposed to service and the selection of a peoples who would serve as God messengers and from whom the Christ would come
Not of works but of faith
John 3:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
and you must believe to be in Christ
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
but your theology grants in apart from Christ and is therefore unbiblical
Believe
Active member
Makes me think of that expression of the pot calling the kettle black. It means a situation in which somebody accuses someone else of a fault which the accuser shares, and therefore is an example of psychological projection, or hypocrisy.
Yep it's Cognitive dissidence
civic
Well-known member
Yep
undeniablyYep
brightfame52
Well-known member
You not able to receive the truth. I have seen others give you the truth and you cant receive it. Some of them have took time to answer all the verses you swamp them with, and you just ignore it like they didnt even take the time. I have seen it numerous times and not just on this forum platform.
brightfame52
Well-known member
You entitled to your opinion
Not having a foundational ability to properly exegete scripture you do not understand what you see
Tom, I labor to answer every post to me~Always have since I started debating on line around twenty-five years ago....... generally in detail, but, I want to first finish addressing the whole of the OP.
But briefly I will answer this one, so as to keep from anyone thinking we have no answers for we know that we do using God's word. But, we will not answer another one until we're completely finished exposing the OP for what it is....false to the core.
You asked:
What do you think? I'm the one that has said many times over, context is king, for it drives our interpretation for us. Thanks for asking, it will only serve me, not you and your corrupt work gospel which is another gospel that has the curse of God upon it according to Galatian chapter one. Let us see who the us are.
Ephesians 1:1-8~"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:"
Tom, I never assume anything, much more than that, I do not teach anything without God's testimony supporting what I teach, and here in Ephesians 1:1-8 we have so much support, much more than you are willing to accept, pretty sure of that.
"to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus"~ The word of God is written to SAINTS, not to wicked sinners who are at enmity against the God of the holy scriptures. Can we at least agree on this one point? If not, then I'm speaking to an unreasonable person that I should not be wasting valuable time with.
So, the us is those only which are already IN CHRIST, and have been since before the foundation of the world in a eternal and legal sense. The only people in this world whereby God's grace has been showed are those that are in Christ since the foundation of the world, or in another sense which is equally true, from eternity and will be world without end.
"hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"~The only folks in the world, past, present, and future, that are blessed of God, are those people to whom the promises of God are for, which were freely given to them in Christ before the foundation of the world, or from eternity apt. Not some spiritual blessing, but ALL~election, predestination, sanctification, and our calling and a promise that that which God has started he WILL finished totally to present us faultless before him until the day of Jesus Christ second coming.
2nd Timothy 1:9
“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
Philippians 1:6
“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”
" he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"~God chose us, not because we were more worthy, than the next person, but according to the good pleasure of his will, according to Paul speaking under the inspiration of God. Now, you can reject that if you will, but know you are not rejecting my words but God's for I have done nothing more than quote verbatim God's word. And you truly know that I have, whether or not you will confess this to be so.
Yes, we were chosen in Christ, or he is the head of the elect body and the work of redemption for those elect body was given to the head, it is impossible to separate the head from the body, or the body from the head.
"wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" I could spend pages on this one thought~the elect were made accepted ONLY IN CHRIST, outside of Christ, it would have been impossible for us to do any work which would have contributed to our acceptance before God, impossible!
"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:" These blessed truths are hidden from most, revealed only to US, the very elect......... now, who they are, is yet to be seen, but, those that love God and his word will submit to the teachings of his word, for the most part, maybe not all at once, but, they will over time. Again, I could spend much time here, but I know that I should not.
I'll come back after a meeting and finish my post to you. I knda rushed thsi,
brightfame52
Well-known member
You not able to receive the truth. I have seen others give you the truth and you cant receive it. Some of them have took time to answer all the verses you swamp them with, and you just ignore it like they didnt even take the time. I have seen it numerous times and not just on this forum platform.
Sorry you do not know what truth is for you get it not from scripture but from your own imagination and men
