Yes let's stay on topic please.
Don't Study The Grace Message!
- Thread starter Grace ambassador
- Start date
That really has little to do with dispensationalism.
Nothing the about premillenialism
Nothing there about a rapture
Nothing there about a rival of old testament sacrifices
Nothing about Christ reigning in Jerusalem for a thousand years
I am not sure why the principle of grace as an operative principle of God's work out his redemtive purpose during a certain age is so confusing to Christendom. Beginning in the book of Genesis in chapter one, verse one and reading through the book of the Acts in the 70 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ will make the apllication of the grace of God chrystal clear. There can be not doubt that grace is a dispensation of God and it is a dispensational principle of divine dealing with "the world" and not only just a subset of the world of men.
Now there are two principles at work immediately after the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. The first principle begins in Acts 2. It is the principle of "promise." It does not concern "the world" at this time because God has not made any promises to the world that he is obligated by an oath to the world to honor. There was a promise that Abraham would bless the families of the world but the promise was given to him about them.
One of the very first commands that is recorded after he rose from the dead was given in Acts 1. Here it is.
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
The promise of the Spirit as the gift of God was to this nation of Israel. Search the OT scriptures and you will find that is true. Possessing the Spirit as a permanent member of a person's nature is salvation because it is the everlasting presence of God. The Spirit is LIFE. If the Spirit could have dwelt in men with sin in them then Jesus Christ would not have had to die and his blood wash it away. The water of baptism the Jews were called upon to recieve during the first few years of this age is symbolic of this blood cleansing of Jesus Christ as the Spirit became a presence in their being.
Now no one deserves this gift of the Spirit who is the gift of salvation and God did not present him to Israel because they deserved salvation, but because he had promised them salvation. One must understand that. In acts 8 they officially as a nation through their rulers resisted this salvation and rejected it. This was 7 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. One will see a movement of God after this to broaden his campaign of preaching outside the bounds of Jerusalem and Judah to Samaria and the world of the gentiles. There was no symbolism of baptism as a precursor for the gentiles because God is not offering the gift of the Spirit, who is life and salvation, because he has to because of an oath, but he is giving the Spirit as a matter of his grace and mercy. If God would never have offered his salvation to the gentile nations he could not be blamed.
So grace is a big deal in our present distress. We can be thankful for his marvelous grace that brings salvation to us. God makes this case and for those of us who believes it he is glorified and praised and worshipped for who he is.
By the way, when the door of faith was opened by Peter as per the promise of the use of the keys in Matt 16, to the gentile in Acts 10, the grace of God became visible as the Jews were able to see that gentiles were now being saved wholesale, 10 years after the Jews, by believing the gospel that began to be preached to them and receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
Let's get the grace message right and glorify our God.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
"If ye have heard of The Dispensation Of The Grace Of God Which Is Given me to you-ward:"
(Ephesians 3:2 AV)
of The Mystery have nothing to do with these which pertain to Israel, however:
participates In God's Great Grace Departure [ aka rapture ], Then God Will Resume
His Prophetic Program With Israel and the nations.
Amen.
More Right Division is here:
.. ↓ ...... ↓ ........ ↓ .......... ↓
(Ephesians 3:2 AV)
Correct, the Dispensation of Grace and It's Message Of Grace found in the Revelation
of The Mystery have nothing to do with these which pertain to Israel, however:
Respectfully disagree, Since When The Message of Grace Ends, and The Body Of Christ
participates In God's Great Grace Departure [ aka rapture ], Then God Will Resume
His Prophetic Program With Israel and the nations.
Amen.
More Right Division is here:
.. ↓ ...... ↓ ........ ↓ .......... ↓
If you think otherwise Post the verse teaching a secret rapture before the tribulation
dwight92070
Well-known member
Grace Ambassador, would you please define what rightly dividing the word of truth means?
A better translation
2 Timothy 2:15 (UASV) — 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
There is no rapture of the church of Jesus Christ, which is defined as his body and formed by God to occupy Paradise with him, in the theology of any amils. Facing the facts, dispensationalists who believe the words of scripture are not speaking of the same God as the amils. None of the words have the same meaning even when we are quoting from the same Bible. We have no agreement on any doctrine, especially how a sinner is saved from their sins and becomes a son of God. We don't even agree on who can be saved.
So, here is a definite reference to the "rapture" of the church of Jesus Christ, a prophecy in the text that no amil will admit or even be able to see within the context of the dispensation of the grace of God, the "mystery of Christ" the theme of this letter and the explanation thereof as it relates to the gentiles inclusion into what began as a Jewish church in Acts 2. Here is the quote this poster said does not exist in the scriptures of truth. (by the way, it probably doesn't in his translation).
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
The dispensation of the fullness of times is future to this dispensation of the grace of God. There is not an age to come according to the letter,but there are ages to come. This is a present age according to Ga 1:4 and Jesus Christ had come from heaven to Israel in the fulness of THE time. Ga 4:4
Meditate on this.
Try again
no mention of a rapture in that text
I have no problem at all affirming that verse
You are merely assuming your doctrine. Reading it into the passage
You prove doctrine by reading it out of the scripture not pouring it into scripture
Read the text again. It is exactly what it is saying. It is not speaking of an end of the age gathering because that is not a mystery. Hundreds of passages in the OT Jewish Scriptures gives details about the revelation of Jesus Christ. The theme of this epistle is in the context of the mystery of Christ, the mystery of which has been revealed to Paul, the apostle to the gentiles alone. The church, the body of Christ with the addition of gentiles was hidden in God until now when Paul was chosen to have it revealed to him so it could be revealed to us.. One would not learn about it no matter how good of a student he was of the law of God in the OT scriptures. But it is not revealed to those whom the Spirit does not indwell through the new birth. It is foolishness to this man. The understanding of the church is only available to the man to whom God can reveal it.
I suggest reading `1 Cor 2, the entire chapter because this will affirm how God reveals his doctrines and to whom he reveals them. The natural man represents an unsaved man in the text. Likewise a carnal man who walks after the flesh cannot receive spiritual truth from God. The context of this chapter is Paul's inability to teach them the mystery of the church because of these two reasons and he says so in the text.
1 Corinthians was written in ad 54
epesians in ad 60
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It can be read until the cows come home, but it says nothing about a secret rapture
One must read out of scripture not read their doctrine into it
This does not explain the terminology by the apostle Paul concerning the "dispensation of the fullness of times" within the framework of the actions of God the Father in the text of placing the believers of Christ "in Christ." This is a doctrine of the scriptures that falls under the heading of "the faith of Christ." Where is the teaching of the amils that the dispensation of the fullness of times is the end of the world, the kosmos. Explain that doctrine to us please. What it is according to the text is the gathering of all people who are "in Christ" together. What does it mean to be in Christ? It means to be in his family by a new birth that was not possible for anyone until the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ when sins can be washed away by his blood and the Spirit indwell their mortal bodies. Previously all people born of a woman, except our Lord Jesus, were in Adam by a physical birth and were unsaved and unprepared and unable to be in the presence of God. This is the reason those justified believers in God in the OT went to paradise in the center of the earth only to be presented to God after the resurrection of Christ when their sins could be forgiven by God and taken away.
Now the text says that God is going to gather two groups of believers together at the fullness of times. Both groups are associated with Christ through the new birth. It is his family, his body, his church. It is an assembly that is being called out. It is1) the living saints and 2) the sleeping saints. He is fulfilling his promise of glorifying the entire family at one time as one new man by glorifying the body thus giving it the ability of occupying the heavenlies with Christ and the Father.
In all three passages where God is explaining the mystery of the resurrection and glorification of the church, 1cor 15, 1 Thess 4, and Ep 1, he gives this stucture. In 1 Cor it is the corruptible, those who are alive at his coming, and the incorruptible.
1 Cor 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The corruptible are those who have dies in Christ and the mortal are those who are alive when he comes.
Secret rapture? How quickly does this happen? It is secret only because it is faster than a blind eye can see.
Revelation 19 does not happen in a twinkling of an eye.
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1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Above, those who are asleep in Christ are coming with Jesus to receive their new bodies and those who are alive when he comes will also be changed without dying.
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10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Those in heaven are the sleeping saints, and those on earth are those who are alive when he comes. The harvest of this age.
You are not able to see the mysteries. They must be revealed by the Spirit to the mind.
The trinitarian signature by the three mentions of the rapture of the church.
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Can you point out where we see a secret rapture mentioned in anything you state
1cor 15 concerns the resurrection at Christs coming not a secret rapture to avoid the tribulation
much as 1Thes 4:15
It is not a secret coming seven years previous to the second coming before the tribulation but the second coming itself
You should point out a secret rapture. You were the one who used the term, not me. There is nothing secret about the rapture. I have been speaking openly about it. How can it be secret? Now God calls it a mystery. Any problem with that is past my ability to deal with. He wrote the book.
Don't you know dispensationalism teaches that. A pre tribulation rapture which is 7 years before the second advent
Do you reject dispensationalism?
How can I reject the dispensational teaching of the scriptures when I have to read about it in the scriptures of truth? Whether you understand it or not, certain of Jewish practices had to be suspended at least for a time before the door of faith was opened by Peter to the gentiles so they could be partakers of the gracious gospel of Jesus Christ and could receive his gift of salvation, his righteousness, the Spirit of Christ to indwell their mortal bodies. You can read about this event in Acts 10 when God was ready to invite the gentiles to be saved. When Peter unlocked the door at the house of Corneilus the Italian, and all his house were saved, The Jews with him noted that they had received the Holy Ghost as they had 10 yrears earlier at the beginning at Pentecost in Acts 2. This is a dispensational change that was important to the whole world.
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Peter preached the opening sermon to the Jews in Acts 2. He was called upon to lay hands on the Samaritans to receive the Holy Ghost after they believed the gospel and were baptized in water in Acts 8, and God sent him to Cornelius to open the door of faith to gentiles in Acts 10.
I am not guessing about that. Here is what was said much later after Paul,s first missionary journey to gentiles in Acts 15.I suggest reading the whole context for clarity.
Acts 14:24 And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25 And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.
Read this:
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
THe Jews were not to impose their customs on the gentiles as any requirement for salvation. Salvation is by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ and the Father's grace of saving any who will receive it.
Your religious system has none of these things in it.
Well if you believe in dispensationalism
you need to show that the bible teaches a rapture previous to the second coming in a secretive return of Christ before the tribulation period ends.
Thus far you have failed to do so
L.A.M.B.
Active member
Many ppl have taken scripture out of context to form the doctrines of men.
Those whom follow these doctrines of men should adhere to Peter's statement....
Acts 5:29
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
It is easy to assume denominal doctrines as the word of truth but as @civic has so eloquently stated in his thread on " Doctrines of Demons" we must be Beareans of our own souls, making sure are beliefs are the words of God !
Yes
charismaticlady
Active member
I would love to see a pretrib. rapture, but seeing as 1 Thess. 4 says "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" meaning those that make it out of the Great Tribulation alive I can't believe in a secret rapture. What I can believe is the paradigm of the children of Israel being safe throughout all the plagues of Egypt.
Not all Christians will be safe though. It depends on what you practice. How scriptural do you live?
Luke 21:34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Revelation 3:10 " 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. " The GT is NOT the wrath of God.
