Don't Study The Grace Message!

[JD731]

'For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity,
and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.'
(Tit 2:11-14)

Hello @JD731 and @TomL,

In the prison epistles of Paul, written following the Divine revelation concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ given to him: Paul tells the Colossian believers, that their life is hid with Christ in God, 'and when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory' (Col. 3:3-4). We now love and look for His 'appearing' (2 Tim. 4:8 & Titus 2:13 ).

We have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and now walk in newness of life before the Father, having been ascended in Christ to God's right hand, by the reckoning of God the Father. So the fact that we will appear with Him also does not seem so very extraordinary, for He is our life. Also, should we not survive until that blessed day, we will merely be reckoned by God to be, 'asleep in Christ' (1 Cor. 15:18) so will be with Him still in spirit.

When this takes place is nothing compared with the fact that it will take place. Would it not be much better to rejoice in that certainty rather than dispute when and how?

We know that at His appearing He will judge 'the quick and the dead' (2 Tim. 4:1).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Some good thoughts there to ponder. However, the amillennialists by whatever name they go by do not define the church of Jesus Christ the same as you and I define it. Not even close. Our differences are not on one issue but on every issue because we have different meanings for the words in any given text. The entire OT to the amils is figurative and the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New covenants made with Israel are not eternal covenants with immutable and unchanging promises to this people whom God says he loves.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

If you do not accept that corporate Israel is the son of God and was born of the flesh and has done as fleshly lost men always do, sin against God and follow their own way. And if you can understand that God did not love Israel because Israel was good but he loved Israel because he is God and God is good.

Ps 73:1 ¶ «A Psalm of Asaph.» Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

God will convert Israel as one and he will be King over them on this earth as well as being King over all nations. Many religious groups are opposing this truth by denying it and teaching against it. He commanded Israel at his resurrection to repent and receive him in the first two recorded sermons after he rose from the dead, and they would not.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

"Every one of you" is the operative phrase because God will not restore the dominion of man over the earth until all are converted, beginning with Israel, and the rebels destroyed. He says those things and I quote them but no one seems to take him serious.

Take a look at this psalm abou the rule of Jesus Christ over the earth.

Psa 145:1 ¶ «David’s Psalm of praise.» I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I (David) will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They (the men) shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

The glories of the everlasting Kingdom

10 ¶ All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They (his saints) shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

Did you get verse 13? There are births happening throughout eternity because there are generations. Generations in eternity.

4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.

The majesty of our God is so great that it should excite a Presbyterian, but alas, few believes the words.

 

[dwight92070]

Sounds like "a gentile becomes born again" is OFF-topic to the "pre-trib" rapture
of the Body Of Christ.

Wouldn't that be "salvation from sin (born again) to get Into The Body Of Christ"?

Seems to me that ON-topic would be for you to prove the ~~ 100 Scriptures, Rightly
Divided found in the already addressed 'Scriptural Proof' of God's:

Great Grace Departure!​

to be erroneous, because of your 'claims':

"The bible simply does not teach any pretrib rapture", and "that is a claim not a
proof of anything", eh?

Amen.

Could you please explain how your points are rightly divided, but nobody else's are? Or is that just something you say everytime you respond?

 

[dwight92070]

Some good thoughts there to ponder. However, the amillennialists by whatever name they go by do not define the church of Jesus Christ the same as you and I define it. Not even close. Our differences are not on one issue but on every issue because we have different meanings for the words in any given text. The entire OT to the amils is figurative and the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New covenants made with Israel are not eternal covenants with immutable and unchanging promises to this people whom God says he loves.

Ho 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

If you do not accept that corporate Israel is the son of God and was born of the flesh and has done as fleshly lost men always do, sin against God and follow their own way. And if you can understand that God did not love Israel because Israel was good but he loved Israel because he is God and God is good.

Ps 73:1 ¶ «A Psalm of Asaph.» Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

God will convert Israel as one and he will be King over them on this earth as well as being King over all nations. Many religious groups are opposing this truth by denying it and teaching against it. He commanded Israel at his resurrection to repent and receive him in the first two recorded sermons after he rose from the dead, and they would not.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

"Every one of you" is the operative phrase because God will not restore the dominion of man over the earth until all are converted, beginning with Israel, and the rebels destroyed. He says those things and I quote them but no one seems to take him serious.

Take a look at this psalm abou the rule of Jesus Christ over the earth.

Psa 145:1 ¶ «David’s Psalm of praise.» I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
5 I (David) will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
7 They (the men) shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

The glories of the everlasting Kingdom

10 ¶ All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
11 They (his saints) shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

Did you get verse 13? There are births happening throughout eternity because there are generations. Generations in eternity.

4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.

The majesty of our God is so great that it should excite a Presbyterian, but alas, few believes the words.

When was the Palestinian covenant, that you mention, made with Israel? Maybe you should read the Old Testament again - maybe take notes. To say that amils take the entire Old Testament figuratively is also something you made up - sort of like a Palestinian covenant.

 

[JD731]

Could you please explain how your points are rightly divided, but nobody else's are? Or is that just something you say everytime you respond?

I hope you are not on the thread trying to teach others but not sure of yourself. If you will admit this I will respond to your question.

 

[JD731]

When was the Palestinian covenant, that you mention, made with Israel? Maybe you should read the Old Testament again - maybe take notes. To say that amils take the entire Old Testament figuratively is also something you made up - sort of like a Palestinian covenant.

All the everlasting covenants between God and Israel are made legal by the oath of the Judge. If you can find a covenant concerning the land that Israel was about to enter as their own and God swearing to some elements of it then your question is answered. I suggest reading Deut 28 through 31

De 29:1 ¶ These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

De 29:10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, [with] all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

So friend, these are wonderful truths. I do not intend to come off as arrogant but I am confident in what I teach, supporting it with scripture, the words of which I believe. I also believe that some teaching leads souls away from God.

If one feels that naming it the Palestinian covenant is a bit strong then he can just call it the "land" covenant.

I am not wrong about God initiating a covenant at the Jordan and swearing to it with an oath. I just quoted it to you.

 

[TomL]

Some good thoughts there to ponder. However, the amillennialists by whatever name they go by do not define the church of Jesus Christ the same as you and I define it. Not even close. Our differences are not on one issue but on every issue because we have different meanings for the words in any given text. The entire OT to the amils is figurative and the Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, and the New covenants made with Israel are not eternal covenants with immutable and unchanging promises to this people whom God says he loves.

Um no amillennialist holds the entire Old Testament is figurative.

 

[Complete]

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Hello @TomL.

Amillennialism is not something I have considered because the Bible clearly tells us that there will be a period of 1,000 years during which the overcomers will reign with Christ. The reign of Christ of course extends on into eternity, but that period of 1,000 years is part of God's plan and purpose, and cannot be denied.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

(Rev 20:2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(Rev 20:3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Hello @TomL.

Amillennialism is not something I have considered because the Bible clearly tells us that there will be a period of 1,000 years during which the overcomers will reign with Christ. The reign of Christ of course extends on into eternity, but that period of 1,000 years is part of God's plan and purpose, and cannot be denied.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

If that is all you are going by you really do not understand Amillenialism. The name is somewhat of a misnomer. Many Amillenialist hold what is a realized millenium which is the church age. What is denied is the 1000 years period follows Christs second advent. A study of the new Testament reveals that Christ second advent bring with it the end of Christ's reign,

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-reign-of-christ-when-will-it-be.1317/post-51621

new heaven and earth

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-new-heaven-and-the-new-earth.1351/post-54026

 

[Complete]

Complete said:-
Rev. 20
Amillennialism is not something I have considered because the Bible clearly tells us that there will be a period of 1,000 years during which the overcomers will reign with Christ. The reign of Christ of course extends on into eternity, but that period of 1,000 years is part of God's plan and purpose, and cannot be denied.

If that is all you are going by you really do not understand Amillenialism.

Obviously not.

Thank you.

 

[TomL]

All the everlasting covenants between God and Israel are made legal by the oath of the Judge. If you can find a covenant concerning the land that Israel was about to enter as their own and God swearing to some elements of it then your question is answered. I suggest reading Deut 28 through 31

De 29:1 ¶ These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

De 29:10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, [with] all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

So friend, these are wonderful truths. I do not intend to come off as arrogant but I am confident in what I teach, supporting it with scripture, the words of which I believe. I also believe that some teaching leads souls away from God.

If one feels that naming it the Palestinian covenant is a bit strong then he can just call it the "land" covenant.

I am not wrong about God initiating a covenant at the Jordan and swearing to it with an oath. I just quoted it to you.

Why does Israel not occupy all the land today?

Why were they removed from the land in previous times?

 

[TomL]

Obviously not.

As noted the name is rather misleading. I hold to what is a realized millenium where Christ reigns from heaven before his second advent. I hold this because a number of New Testament passages preclude the idea of a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after his second advent. If you look at the eschatology forum you will see a number of ops I started on the 1st and 2nd pages laying out my reasons

 

[Complete]

Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified:

"You heard me! Don’t study dispensationalism, study the Bible dispensationally. Rightly
Dividing the Word is the key to understanding the Bible, but what do you do with a key?
You don’t study it. Once you know how it works, you use it to unlock the lock for which it
was designed. Well, once you understand the principle of Right Division,
use it to unlock the Scriptures it was designed to open to your understanding.

If you are a Grace pastor or teacher, don’t teach dispensationalism, “preach The Word” (2 Tim. 4:2)
dispensationally considered. Brother Les Feldick has done a tremendous job of reaching people
with the Truth of the Rightly Divided Word, grounding them in it, and helping them grow in it, all
by simply teaching through the Bible, verse by verse, “according to The Revelation of The Mystery”
(Rom. 16:25). The saints to whom you minister can flourish under the same type of ministry.

So whether you are a Grace believer or even a Grace pastor, don’t study the Grace Message. If that’s
all you do, you will never be able to answer the challenges our opponents raise to the Truth. But the
man of God who has studied every verse they cite in its context will be thoroughly equipped to
“fight the good fight of faith” (1 Tim. 6:12), “war a good warfare” (1 Tim. 1:18), and “please Him Who
hath chosen him to be a soldier” (2 Tim. 2:4)"
(R Kurth Two Minutes)

Amen.

'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'
(2Tim. 2:15)

Hello @Grace ambassador,

This instruction to Timothy was untrammelled by an 'ism'. There is nothing within it to cause dispute, it is clear and instructive, and worthy of application. To couple it to an 'ism' of any description is to do the word of God an injustice: For it will alienate those who stand opposed to that 'ism', from the application of it, to their detriment.

The application of right division has benefitted me tremendously as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and a recipient of His grace. However, I received of the grace of God by hearing the gospel message, which entered into my heart by faith, and took root to the saving of my soul. The truth revealed through the prison epistles of Paul revealing the magnitude of God's grace came later, along with the need to rightly divide the word of Truth. For which I praise God.

'That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body,
.. and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
.... Whereof I was made a minister,
...... according to the gift of the grace of God
........ given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
.. that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
.... And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
...... which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
........ who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now
.. unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
.... might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
...... According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
........ In Whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.'
(Eph.3:6-12)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Why does Israel not occupy all the land today?

Why were they removed from the land in previous times?

Deuteronomy 30:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

 

[dwight92070]

All the everlasting covenants between God and Israel are made legal by the oath of the Judge. If you can find a covenant concerning the land that Israel was about to enter as their own and God swearing to some elements of it then your question is answered. I suggest reading Deut 28 through 31

De 29:1 ¶ These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

De 29:10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, [with] all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

So friend, these are wonderful truths. I do not intend to come off as arrogant but I am confident in what I teach, supporting it with scripture, the words of which I believe. I also believe that some teaching leads souls away from God.

If one feels that naming it the Palestinian covenant is a bit strong then he can just call it the "land" covenant.

I am not wrong about God initiating a covenant at the Jordan and swearing to it with an oath. I just quoted it to you.

I looked up Palestinian covenant online. The information there says that the covenant mentioned in Deuteronomy 29 has been called a Palestinian covenant, although those words are never used in this chapter or elsewhere, so it is strictly a man-made term. So I decided to study this further and I am convinced that this is actually God asking Israel to renew their commitment to the Mosaic Law - with an oath. Forty years have passed, Moses is about to die, and the people are about to enter the promised land under Joshua's leadership. This is the perfect time for them to make a fresh commitment. I think of how couples renew their vows to each other after decades of marriage.

Deuteronomy 29:1 says "These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDES the covenant which He had made with them at Horeb. If you look up "BESIDES" in the Hebrew dictionary in the Strong's Concordance (4480 - minne), the very first meaning is "from". So it could read "FROM the covenant which He made with them at Horeb."

The added thing here appears to be, not new laws, but an oath to keep the current law of Moses. (verse 9 and 12 of Deut. 29). I don't believe they took an oath to keep the original law, but I could be wrong. In fact, I searched in vain to discover any NEW laws in either chapter 29 or 30.

In chap. 29, verse 20, the Lord speaks of "every curse which is written in this book will rest on him" "on the man or woman , or family or tribe whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to serve the gods of other nations" verses 18-21 This appears to be a reference to the Mosaic Law, Deut. 28 - i.e. the curses mentioned there
Then verses 22-24 speak of the curses that will come upon them.

Why? Verse 25 is very enlightening:
"Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which He MADE WITH THEM WHEN HE BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT." (Now we're talking about the original law)
Verse 27 - "Therefore, the anger of the Lord burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book" (sounds like Deuteronomy 28 again)
Deut 30:1 "So it shall be when all these things have come upon you, THE BLESSING AND THE CURSE WHICH I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU, ..." Where did the Lord do that? (This can ONLY be a reference to the blessings and the curses in Deuteronomy 28)
So now we're definitely right back into the original Mosaic Law. See Chap.30:10

A confirmation of that is found in Deut. 30:11-14, which Paul quotes in Romans 10:5-10.
How does Paul refer to Deut.30:11-14?
"For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith ..."
Paul doesn't call it the Palestinian covenant or the final covenant God gave them just before Moses died, or an addendum to the law of Moses - he simply refers to it as the law of Moses. so I think we can too.

 

[dwight92070]

'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.'
(2Tim. 2:15)

Hello @Grace ambassador,

This instruction to Timothy was untrammelled by an 'ism'. There is nothing within it to cause dispute, it is clear and instructive, and worthy of application. To couple it to an 'ism' of any description is to do the word of God an injustice: For it will alienate those who stand opposed to that 'ism', from the application of it, to their detriment.

The application of right division has benefitted me tremendously as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and a recipient of His grace. However, I received of the grace of God by hearing the gospel message, which entered into my heart by faith, and took root to the saving of my soul. The truth revealed through the prison epistles of Paul revealing the magnitude of God's grace came later, along with the need to rightly divide the word of Truth. For which I praise God.

'That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body,
.. and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
.... Whereof I was made a minister,
...... according to the gift of the grace of God
........ given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
.. that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
.... And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
...... which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
........ who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now
.. unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
.... might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
...... According to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
........ In Whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.'
(Eph.3:6-12)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

It's too bad that you feel that you must put on your "dispensational filter" when reading the Bible. All that means is that you only see the scripture the way John Nelson Darby or C. I. Scofield (a disciple of Darby) saw it. On the contrary, we are to read the Bible unencumbered with other men's opinions, unless we can clearly see that their interpretation lines up with what the scripture says. This is not true of dispensationalism.

There is no scriptural verification for:
A 7 year tribulation
A 2000 year plus gap between Daniel's 69th week and his 70th week.
A secret rapture, where believers disappear (vs. being caught up in the air) and He will be invisible to all except believers. (vs. every eye will see Him)
A literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth on a throne in Jerusalem, which would be a demotion for Christ, Who now sits on the right hand of God.
The Great Tribulation being future vs. what happened in 70 A.D.
A separate resurrection for unbelievers vs. John 5:28-29, where both the good and the evil are resurrected - ALL men in the same hour.
A return to animal sacrifice in the Millennium, approved by Christ Himself. Actually, that would be like spitting in His face.
Israel and the church will be eternally separate vs. He has broken down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.
The word "dispensation" never meant a time period until Darby and Scofield's false teaching became so popular that the meaning was changed. The actual original meaning was "a stewardship" or "an administration". Paul was given a stewardship, not a period of time.
Only one group from the dispensational persuasion thinks that they alone "rightly divide the word of truth" vs. All believers can rightly divide the word of truth. This is simply a meaningless talking point for the dispensationalists.

 

[TomL]

It's too bad that you feel that you must put on your "dispensational filter" when reading the Bible. All that means is that you only see the scripture the way John Nelson Darby or C. I. Scofield (a disciple of Darby) saw it. On the contrary, we are to read the Bible unencumbered with other men's opinions, unless we can clearly see that their interpretation lines up with what the scripture says. This is not true of dispensationalism.

There is no scriptural verification for:
A 7 year tribulation
A 2000 year plus gap between Daniel's 69th week and his 70th week.
A secret rapture, where believers disappear (vs. being caught up in the air) and He will be invisible to all except believers. (vs. every eye will see Him)
A literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth on a throne in Jerusalem, which would be a demotion for Christ, Who now sits on the right hand of God.

Who currently reigns seated in heaven on the right side of the Father

Acts 2:32–36 (KJV 1900) — 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:22–28 (KJV 1900) — 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[JD731]

Why does Israel not occupy all the land today?

Why were they removed from the land in previous times?

Why do they occupy any of it after nearly two thousand years of being scattered, not in one nation of the world, but many nations of the world, yet preserved as a people group and showing up as a nation for the first time since 70 AD in our generation, is the better question. One thing is dead sure, they must have a national identity before the "day of the Lord" finally comes and the realization of the Abrahamic and Palestinian and Davidic covenants that God had given and sworn to. If you ask me, this truth you fellows are denying just might be one of the most profound miracles in all history. A nation being raised from the dead after 2000 years of being in the grave and only a small remnant of them being saved and added to the church of Jesus Christ as if they were gentiles without any national and ethnical covenants with God. Oh wait, that is exactly what Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul both said would be the nature of this present age in their quotes. You insist on not believing the words.

Remember the Temple. It is where God meets with them. When they become a saved nation, as will surely happen very soon, the land of Israel will be, Jerusalem, will be the place where Jesus Christ resides. If they are with him they will be there too. See Eze 40 and following concerning the Temple which is also his throne in the Millennial day.

Why were they removed from the land in previous times?

Because God is faithful to keep his words in the "land" covenant. God has done exactly what he said he would do if the option they chose of the two he gave them was to fail to keep his law of Moses and to be faithful to him. I can't imagine why you fellows cannot put these things together, but you you seem to be blind to them. There is a promise in the Palestinian covenant.

De 30:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: (see Matt 24 and related passages in the OT where he is sending his angels to the nations for this task)
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

This next is important. Israel has been scattered and brought back, but never with a circumcised heart which equates to their sin being taken away. Salvation of all Israel. See Rom 11:26 and context.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return (to the land so both they and God are in the land) and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

You are practicing believing only the words you want to believe in the text to justify amil - doctrines IMO.

 

[JD731]

I looked up Palestinian covenant online. The information there says that the covenant mentioned in Deuteronomy 29 has been called a Palestinian covenant, although those words are never used in this chapter or elsewhere, so it is strictly a man-made term. So I decided to study this further and I am convinced that this is actually God asking Israel to renew their commitment to the Mosaic Law - with an oath. Forty years have passed, Moses is about to die, and the people are about to enter the promised land under Joshua's leadership. This is the perfect time for them to make a fresh commitment. I think of how couples renew their vows to each other after decades of marriage.

Deuteronomy 29:1 says "These are the words of the covenant which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDES the covenant which He had made with them at Horeb. If you look up "BESIDES" in the Hebrew dictionary in the Strong's Concordance (4480 - minne), the very first meaning is "from". So it could read "FROM the covenant which He made with them at Horeb."

The added thing here appears to be, not new laws, but an oath to keep the current law of Moses. (verse 9 and 12 of Deut. 29). I don't believe they took an oath to keep the original law, but I could be wrong. In fact, I searched in vain to discover any NEW laws in either chapter 29 or 30.

In chap. 29, verse 20, the Lord speaks of "every curse which is written in this book will rest on him" "on the man or woman , or family or tribe whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to serve the gods of other nations" verses 18-21 This appears to be a reference to the Mosaic Law, Deut. 28 - i.e. the curses mentioned there
Then verses 22-24 speak of the curses that will come upon them.

Why? Verse 25 is very enlightening:
"Because they forsook the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which He MADE WITH THEM WHEN HE BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT." (Now we're talking about the original law)
Verse 27 - "Therefore, the anger of the Lord burned against that land, to bring upon it every curse which is written in this book" (sounds like Deuteronomy 28 again)
Deut 30:1 "So it shall be when all these things have come upon you, THE BLESSING AND THE CURSE WHICH I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU, ..." Where did the Lord do that? (This can ONLY be a reference to the blessings and the curses in Deuteronomy 28)
So now we're definitely right back into the original Mosaic Law. See Chap.30:10

A confirmation of that is found in Deut. 30:11-14, which Paul quotes in Romans 10:5-10.
How does Paul refer to Deut.30:11-14?
"For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith ..."
Paul doesn't call it the Palestinian covenant or the final covenant God gave them just before Moses died, or an addendum to the law of Moses - he simply refers to it as the law of Moses. so I think we can too.

I must admit that I think there is not much hope for one who reasons and uses logic like you are doing here. God said it was a covenant he was making concerning the occupation of the land he was giving them and they were getting poised to occupy and he said it was besides the one he had made earlier at Horeb. The promise of the covenant is that the nation will occupy that land as a saved regenerated nation sometimes in the future no matter their choice of serving God. Moreover God swore to this covenant and his promise in it.

 

[TomL]

Why do they occupy any of it after nearly two thousand years of being scattered, not in one nation of the world, but many nations of the world, yet preserved as a people group and showing up as a nation for the first time since 70 AD in our generation, is the better question. One thing is dead sure, they must have a national identity before the "day of the Lord" finally comes and the realization of the Abrahamic and Palestinian and Davidic covenants that God had given and sworn to. If you ask me, this truth you fellows are denying just might be one of the most profound miracles in all history. A nation being raised from the dead after 2000 years of being in the grave and only a small remnant of them being saved and added to the church of Jesus Christ as if they were gentiles without any national and ethnical covenants with God. Oh wait, that is exactly what Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul both said would be the nature of this present age in their quotes. You insist on not believing the words.

Remember the Temple. It is where God meets with them. When they become a saved nation, as will surely happen very soon, the land of Israel will be, Jerusalem, will be the place where Jesus Christ resides. If they are with him they will be there too. See Eze 40 and following concerning the Temple which is also his throne in the Millennial day.

Why were they removed from the land in previous times?

Because God is faithful to keep his words in the "land" covenant. God has done exactly what he said he would do if the option they chose of the two he gave them was to fail to keep his law of Moses and to be faithful to him. I can't imagine why you fellows cannot put these things together, but you you seem to be blind to them. There is a promise in the Palestinian covenant.

De 30:1 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: (see Matt 24 and related passages in the OT where he is sending his angels to the nations for this task)
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

This next is important. Israel has been scattered and brought back, but never with a circumcised heart which equates to their sin being taken away. Salvation of all Israel. See Rom 11:26 and context.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return (to the land so both they and God are in the land) and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

You are practicing believing only the words you want to believe in the text to justify amil - doctrines IMO.

God's word called for faithfulness on the part of Israel

Deuteronomy 30:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

It has not happened

 

[Grace ambassador]

Back ON topic:

I don't know why anyone would equate dispensationalism with the grace message.

Makes no sense.

Precious friend, makes perfect sense, probably because:

God Gave Paul, His "Dispenser of Grace":​

"...Grace..." (In Romans Through Philemon = 85 times)​

​

God-Given/Bestowed Grace to Paul:​

​

"For I say, through The Grace Given Unto me, to every man that is among you,​

not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,​

according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3 AV)​

"Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort,​

as putting you in mind, because of The Grace That Is Given To me of God,"​

(Romans 15:15 AV)​

"According To The Grace Of God Which Is Given Unto me, as a​

wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth​

thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon."​

(1 Corinthians 3:10 AV)​

"But By The Grace Of God I am what I am: and His Grace Which Was​

Bestowed Upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly​

than they all: yet not I, but The Grace Of God Which Was With me."​

(1 Corinthians 15:10 AV)​

"And He Said Unto me, My Grace Is Sufficient for thee: for My Strength​

is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in​

my infirmities, that The Power Of Christ may rest upon me."​

(2 Corinthians 12:9 AV)​

"But when it pleased God, Who Separated me from my mother's​

womb, and Called me By His Grace," (Galatians 1:15 AV)​

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived​

The Grace That Was Given Unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the​

right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they​

unto the circumcision." (Galatians 2:9 AV)​

In Which Dispensation?:​

"If ye have heard of The Dispensation Of The Grace Of God Which Is Given me​

to you-ward:" (Ephesians 3:2 AV)​

"Whereof I was made a minister, according to The Gift Of The Grace Of God​

Given Unto me by The Effectual Working Of His Power." (Ephesians 3:7 AV)​

​

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is This Grace Given, that I​

should preach among the Gentiles The Unsearchable Riches of Christ;"​

(Ephesians 3:8 AV)​

To The Praise Of The Glory Of His Grace!​

Amen.