You are entitled
however there is no pretrib rapture anywhere in the bible
The closest is the catching up of the living at the coming of Christ
Don't Study The Grace Message!
- Thread starter Grace ambassador
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however there is no pretrib rapture anywhere in the bible
The closest is the catching up of the living at the coming of Christ
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
To my opinion?
We're both entitled?
Great Grace Departure! - What Saith [ Scripture anywhere ] In God's Word Of
Truth, Rightly Divided?:
Point # 1a = 7 years after the Mystery "catching up" of The Body Of Christ is:
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:
(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, Christ, In His Prophesied
Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords, Is Coming
From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, Revelation 19:11)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
Point # 1b = 7 years Before the above Prophesied Event:
(1) Immediately After This Current [ Mystery ] 'Dispensation Of Grace' Has
Ended / Zero signs!:
Christ, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From Heaven!
Amen.
There are 6 More Scriptural Confirming points to go, if you wish...
Nothing there about a secret coming of Christ where the saints are caught up before a seven year tribulation period
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Need further Confirmation? How about 'point 2':
Prophecy:
(2) Christ Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
Mystery:
(2) Christ Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The [ Last ] Grace Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
Note: The First Grace Trump (Voice) Of God Was In Acts 9:4)
Further Confirming points 3-7 are pending [ also includes a brief 'introduction'...]?...
Amen.
??????????????????????????????
Still Nothing there about a secret coming of Christ where the saints are caught up before a seven year tribulation period
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Ok then, precious friend -
Semi - Final Confirmation, According to All The Rightly Divided Scriptures:
Earthly Prophecy [ always 'made known' ]:
...(3) Christ Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)
- - - ↑
[ if one of these is not "The Body Of Christ" resurrected (7 yrs) earlier, then who exactly are 'they'? ]
(4) Christ Is Coming All-The-Way To earth With One army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, Revelation 19:15)
(5) With Another trumpet (After "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are Sent, By The KING, To: “gather the elect” [ Post - trib ]...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27)
(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The KING!
(Matthew 25:31-46)
(7) Those Judged as righteous then "enter the [ earthly ] kingdom"! And the
Unrighteous then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46)
Note: there are Two Mid - trib raptures [ Jewish - 2 witnesses and 144,000
(Rev 11:11-12, 7:4-8, 14:3-5) ], and Neither is the "Catching Up" of the
[ No-ethnic ] Body Of Christ, Correct?
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
Mystery [ Secret 'Made Known' to Paul ]...
continued next post...
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Grace ambassador
Well-known member
...continued:
Final Confirmation for Pre - Trib "Catching Up", According to All The Rightly
Divided Scriptures:
Earthly Prophecy
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
The Great Grace Departure, According to The [ Secret ] Heavenly Mystery!:
...(3) God (Jesus Christ) Will Bring With Him {those [ souls ] who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In Jesus!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14)
(4) Christ Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” { which
Is A Mystery! }, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The Lord in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) [ aka rapture ]
(5) Christ “Gathers His Body” To Himself [ Pre - Trib ], to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18)
Note: The Body Of Christ Is Already "In The [ Heavenly ] Kingdom"
(6)...For The Judgment Seat Of Christ, For His Heavenly Body, By The
Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6 Romans 2:16, Romans 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 6:20;
2 Corinthians 5:10; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25)
(7a) ...After Judgment, the Grace assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To Christ Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27)
(7b) ...And, Then Christ Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, Colossians 1:22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2)
* Note, The One army Of The Body Of Christ, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
Conclusion:
Thus, Scripture Teaches Pre - Trib Great Grace Departure!
Hope the helps. And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen.
Final Confirmation for Pre - Trib "Catching Up", According to All The Rightly
Divided Scriptures:
Earthly Prophecy
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
The Great Grace Departure, According to The [ Secret ] Heavenly Mystery!:
...(3) God (Jesus Christ) Will Bring With Him {those [ souls ] who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In Jesus!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14)
(4) Christ Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” { which
Is A Mystery! }, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The Lord in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) [ aka rapture ]
(5) Christ “Gathers His Body” To Himself [ Pre - Trib ], to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18)
Note: The Body Of Christ Is Already "In The [ Heavenly ] Kingdom"
(Colossians 1:13 AV)
(6)...For The Judgment Seat Of Christ, For His Heavenly Body, By The
Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6 Romans 2:16, Romans 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 6:20;
2 Corinthians 5:10; Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25)
(7a) ...After Judgment, the Grace assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To Christ Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27)
(7b) ...And, Then Christ Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, Colossians 1:22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2)
* Note, The One army Of The Body Of Christ, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
Conclusion:
Christ [ Post - Trib ] sending His "angels to gather the elect { earthly } Israel" to
"bring them to His [ No 'catching Up' ] earthly throne for judgment, Certainly
Cannot "be the same as":
Christ "Gathering [ Catching Up ] His { Heavenly } Body Of Christ To Himself,
in the air", To Judge us At The Heavenly "Judgment Seat Of Christ"!
Thus, Scripture Teaches Pre - Trib Great Grace Departure!
Hope the helps. And, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen.
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Why? Nothing there about a secret coming where the dead are raised and the living caught up previous to the great tribulation
Amillennialism is not just a stand alone doctrine that is held by some groups of religious men. It is the eschatological doctrine of a system of religious teaching, the whole of which is at odds in many particulars with the biblical revelation of God's wonderful gift of salvation that he has provided to the world through his Son, Jesus Christ when he suffered the wrath of God against sinners on the cross and was buried in a tomb and rose from the dead on the third day.
Jesus Christ said "it is finished' as he died on the cross for us and the payment was made. Amillennials deny this when they teach that the church, which is built upon this foundation, and is the body of Christ, where he, in the person of his Spirit, dwells, must suffer the wrath of God yet again when God purges out the rebels and unbelievers of this earth in what he calls the "great tribulation." This is a necessary eventually if his promised righteous government over the whole earth will be established in fulfillment of the promises of the Davidic Covenant found in 2 Kings 7 and confirmed in Psalm 89.
1 «Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.» I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
The Judge of all the earth swore with an oath that this covenant will be forever, but not without chastening of this people to purify and instruct them in righteousness. During this time the crown will be cast down to the ground. The hedges of this people will be taken away during this time. This is the time in the prophecy that we are in now. Look;
38 ¶ But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
The Psalmists asks an important question. Since the throne is to be forever as the sun and moon, "How Long." How long will it be cast down?
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
The answer to this question is given in Acts 15 and is after the calling out from the gentiles a people for his name. It is the church of Jesus Christ, his body and his bride after the similitude of Adam and Eve.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Here is the answer to the question. The church is Jews and gentiles in a spiritual and heavenly body. The kingdom is the tabernacle of David and is political and earthly.
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
There is not much hope that people of the system that gives us amillennialism will believe these words because it does not fit in their system they have developed over a long time.
I believe this system denies "the faith" which is dependent upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ and including the individual bodily resurrection, at once, of his corporate body, the church.
I encourage the reading of the context of the words I have quoted from Scripture.
Jesus Christ said "it is finished' as he died on the cross for us and the payment was made. Amillennials deny this when they teach that the church, which is built upon this foundation, and is the body of Christ, where he, in the person of his Spirit, dwells, must suffer the wrath of God yet again when God purges out the rebels and unbelievers of this earth in what he calls the "great tribulation." This is a necessary eventually if his promised righteous government over the whole earth will be established in fulfillment of the promises of the Davidic Covenant found in 2 Kings 7 and confirmed in Psalm 89.
1 «Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.» I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
The Judge of all the earth swore with an oath that this covenant will be forever, but not without chastening of this people to purify and instruct them in righteousness. During this time the crown will be cast down to the ground. The hedges of this people will be taken away during this time. This is the time in the prophecy that we are in now. Look;
38 ¶ But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
The Psalmists asks an important question. Since the throne is to be forever as the sun and moon, "How Long." How long will it be cast down?
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
The answer to this question is given in Acts 15 and is after the calling out from the gentiles a people for his name. It is the church of Jesus Christ, his body and his bride after the similitude of Adam and Eve.
Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Here is the answer to the question. The church is Jews and gentiles in a spiritual and heavenly body. The kingdom is the tabernacle of David and is political and earthly.
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
There is not much hope that people of the system that gives us amillennialism will believe these words because it does not fit in their system they have developed over a long time.
I believe this system denies "the faith" which is dependent upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ and including the individual bodily resurrection, at once, of his corporate body, the church.
I encourage the reading of the context of the words I have quoted from Scripture.
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Complete
Well-known member
'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:3-4)
'Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ... '
(Titus 2:13)
This is my hope.
Praise God!
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Col 3:3-4)
'Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing
of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ... '
(Titus 2:13)
This is my hope.
Praise God!
That does not constitute an argument against amillenialism
1 many Amillenialist will hold that the tribulation occurred in 70 A.d.
2 in no case are believers in tribulation suffering God's wrath
3 Christ apostles/servants suffered tribulation
John 16:33 (KJV 1900) — 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
2 Corinthians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
Even today believers in certain locations believers suffer tribulation
You have not tried to defend your theology but have moved on to another distraction, teaching there is no distinction in context unless it is advantageous for you to point it out. Anyone who studies the scriptures with light from God knows that all men suffers trials and tribulations in their lives due to the rebellious and prideful nature of men. Jesus certainly did not intimate that those who follow him are the only people who are troubled and persecuted in this world but he is saying that following him will make them subject to the persecution he receives from his enemies.
Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
I do not know of any man who is not born of a woman so that pretty much includes everyone. However men do not all suffer the same kind of trouble until the great tribulation that has been a theme of the prophetic genre in 17 books of the Bible and by 12 different prophets and God has named this time period "the day of the LORD." It is found 30 times in 29 verses. Every time this phrase is mentioned over the 1000 years or so that this doctrine developed it was always darkness vengeance and judgement of God on the wicked world in the immediate context and it has a beginning and an end goal of God. The Revelation of Jesus Christ defines that end goal of a one thousand year day of restful and righteous rule of heaven over earth after the brief beginning when God eliminates the rebels from earth. In every case in the scriptures this day of the Lord is described as the wrath of God that is coming and it is a future event, until this;
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
My information can be checked very easily to see if it is true. I counsel you who are following false teachers to take these things seriously because there will be a day when it will be too late to be saved.
What is next after the rapture of the church in 1 Thess 4? Take a look;
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 ¶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation (as in deliverance).
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (deliverance from wrath) by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep (whether we are physically dead or alive when he comes to deliver us), we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Beware lest you believe and teach something that is not true. Trust God and his word. He will not punish us for receiving Jesus Christ as our savior. He says so.
Utter nonsense
I just showed your criticism does not touch Amillenialism
You protested that to go through the tribulation, they were suffering God's wrath.
Well it was not God wrath that Christians go through tribulation and in fact Christian often go through tribulation
The fact that many amillennialist hold to a 70 ad tribulation further mitigates against your claim
The fact that the bible nowhere teaches a secret coming of Christ where the living are caught up before a 7-year tribulation is absent from the bible
There is no mention of a rapture there. You have simply assume wrath refers to that
the only text that speaks of a catching up is
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
and it places it at the coming of the lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ
You have not read the text apparently. In the first letter to the Thessalonians Paul assures these Christians that they will not endure the wrath "to come." I will point out the fact they were already under tribulation and trouble that is promised to all who live godly in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
That is an across the board statement but this is not the wrath to come upon the whole world of unrepentant sinners that is yet in the future.
1 Thess 1 - 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess 2 -19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thess 3- 13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Thess - 4 -14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess - 5 - 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
_____________________________________
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
The above afflictions and persecutions are in the general sense that all Christians must endure and has no time line attached to them. This is not true of the "wrath to come" from which those who have been born of God will be delivered.
Times and seasons
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
So it is a day that is coming when Paul wrote this letter in 51 AD and it will come like all Jewish days begin, in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Ho, daytime Christians will be delivered from night time wrath that is pre-appointed in it's own season and in it's own time.
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
I must admit here that I am losing all my confidence in you to be able to reason and use logic and faith in the words of scripture..
Here are Isaiah's 3 descriptions of "the day of the LORD."
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
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Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
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Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. (note: most of earth's inhabitants will be destroyed)
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
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When the sun and moon refuses to give their light then it is a dark day and no place for the children of the day. It does not get any better in the following prophecies in the scriptures.
The Day of the LORD is a prophetic theme that has not come to pass at this time in history but soon will. The church of Jesus Christ is not described in the recipients of this judgement and will be delivered at it's coming. This is what the word of God says. The church will return with Christ when he returns to the earth in his revelation and all eyes sees him coming as recorded in Re 19.
Here is a conclusion of a sermon preached by Paul to men in Athens, Greece about this appointed day of the Lord.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
The Day of the LORD judgements are in the beginning of the day. I will be back later to tell you what the remainder of the day will be like because there is much in the scriptures about it.
You assume the wrath to come refers to a future to us tribulation
here we read about the great tribulation
Matthew 24:1–22 (KJV 1900) — 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.Apparently the elect are it
Notice 1th 5-9 is that which to the obtaining of salvation not escape from tribulation
You read that into the passage
BTW according to 1Th the only catching up is when living believers are caught up when the dead in Christ are raised at the coming of Christ
this is judgment at Christ's coming
Jude 1–16 (ESV) — 1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: 2 May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. 3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. 8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. 9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” 10 But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. 11 Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. 12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
In the New Testament the final judgment is associated with the Second Coming of Christ. (See Revelation 22:12 and the following passages: Mt. 16:27; 25:31-32; Jude 14-15; and especially 2 Thess.1:7-10.) This being the case, it is obvious that the thousand-year reign of Revelation 20:4-6 must occur before and not after the Second Coming of Christ.
That is a claim not proof of anything
There is a list of scriptures you can address if you want to prove the claim erroneous
https://berean-apologetics.communit...-a-gentile-becomes-born-again.1336/post-73215
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Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Sounds like "a gentile becomes born again" is OFF-topic to the "pre-trib" rapture
of the Body Of Christ.
Wouldn't that be "salvation from sin (born again) to get Into The Body Of Christ"?
Seems to me that ON-topic would be for you to prove the ~~ 100 Scriptures, Rightly
Divided found in the already addressed 'Scriptural Proof' of God's:
to be erroneous, because of your 'claims':
"The bible simply does not teach any pretrib rapture", and "that is a claim not a
proof of anything", eh?
Amen.
Nope, not off topic
just not biblically supported
You assume the wrath to come refers to a future to us tribulation
here we read about the great tribulation
Matthew 24:1–22 (KJV 1900) — 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Apparently the elect are it
You are not associated with a temple that you correctly say was destroyed by the Roman army in 70 AD. Jesus went out of the Jewish temple which is symbolic of the death of the nation. Death is a departure or a separation. God had always met with Israel in the tabernacle and later in the temple. It is the first thing Jesus mentions in the text. So, lets begin there in 70 AD when the dead nation was buried in the graveyard of the gentile nations because Jesus departed from them and they were dead, and still are today. He is in heaven and they are on the earth and Jesus is not in their midst like he was in the OT.
Therefore, I present to you the word "then" in the text as a word that is used for a progression of historical events concerning the people of the context, who are called "elect." That is not you. It is God's elect people, the Jews. The English word "then" is in the chapter 9 times and the first 8 times it is the word (and the context will support this) that means "at that time." I will break it down for you so you can see what is in the future for these people and how it plays out over the whole age.
1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aion = age)?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end (of the age) is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
The 1st "then." 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
The 2nd "then."10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; The 3rd "then." and then shall the end (of the age) come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
The 4th "then." 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
The 5th "then." 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
The 6th "then." 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
The 7th "then." 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; (NOW = the fig tree was cursed by him and had dried up only two days before. This Fig tree = metaphor for national Israel) When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (Israel in the land), know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
The 8th "then." 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The last "then" is a "therefore" and elicits a response after receiving this information.
The 9th and last "then." 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
There is not anything in this chapter that relates to the mysteries of the church that had been hidden and later revealed by Paul in his epistles.
And?
What is your point relative to the tribulation in 70 A.d. and the fact elect are in it?
