Don't Study The Grace Message!

God is free to judge men any way He sees fit. Just because He judged differently in different times, there's no necessity to create a whole system of man-made theology around that, in an attempt to put Him in some kind of predictable box. Don't people have something better to do than to create doctrine that isn't there?
 
The Bible is the revelation of God's righteousness, first and foremost.

Also, its the revelation that shows us What God did, what God is doing, and what God is going to do.

The "christianese" word for this is "dispensation".

So, if we say, "In THIS dispensation", we can think of it as "How is God administering His righteousness, NOW, vs, 1500 yrs ago.

How is God going to do it in the Trib?

So, each time God deals with mankind in a different way regarding some form of righteousness administration, then that is a "dispensation" of it.

For example, when you had Moses, you have the LAW and Commandments, and that is how God was administering His Righteousness to the JEW, in THAT dispensation.

Right now......we are in the "time of the Gentiles" and that is God administering His Righteousness through the Cross of Christ, via the Apostle Paul's GOSPEL of the GRACE OF GOD.

See that administration of God RIGHTEOUSNESS, as compared to "here is a bull" "here is a dove"... "burn it, kill it", that was happening before the "time of the Gentiles" or "dispensation" showed up. ????

In the Trib, God's administration of Righteousness changes again, as He take up His dealing with the JEW again.....
 
The Bible is the revelation of God's righteousness, first and foremost.

Also, its the revelation that shows us What God did, what God is doing, and what God is going to do.

The "christianese" word for this is "dispensation".

So, if we say, "In THIS dispensation", we can think of it as "How is God administering His righteousness, NOW, vs, 1500 yrs ago.

How is God going to do it in the Trib?

So, each time God deals with mankind in a different way regarding some form of righteousness administration, then that is a "dispensation" of it.

For example, when you had Moses, you have the LAW and Commandments, and that is how God was administering His Righteousness to the JEW, in THAT dispensation.

Right now......we are in the "time of the Gentiles" and that is God administering His Righteousness through the Cross of Christ, via the Apostle Paul's GOSPEL of the GRACE OF GOD.

See that administration of God RIGHTEOUSNESS, as compared to "here is a bull" "here is a dove"... "burn it, kill it", that was happening before the "time of the Gentiles" or "dispensation" showed up. ????

In the Trib, God's administration of Righteousness changes again, as He take up His dealing with the JEW again.....


Matthew 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
 
Matthew 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Those are "endure to the end" believers.

That is not the Born again, according to the Gospel of the Grace of God, as you find them, in the "time of the GENTILES" that ends before the TRIB starts.
 
Those are "endure to the end" believers.

That is not the Born again, according to the Gospel of the Grace of God, as you find them, in the "time of the GENTILES" that ends before the TRIB starts.
Um that was not the end you envision

but Jerusalem's fate in 70 A.d.
 
Um that was not the end you envision

but Jerusalem's fate in 70 A.d.

Preterism is one more lie of the Devil.

Jesus said "endure to the end".. and that is Prophetic, and happens beyond the "Time of the Gentiles" that offers "The Gift of Salvation".

And notice.

You dont WORK or ENDURE... to get a "GIFT" from God.
 
What is the Grace Message? Is that some translation of the Bible?

Paul calls it..

"The Gospel of the Grace of God".

Paul defines this as "the Preaching of the Cross".

Paul defines this as.. "The Preaching of the CROSS, is the POWER OF GOD.. unto Salvation".

God said..>"Its pleased Him by the foolishness of PREACHING.. to SAVE THOSE who BELIEVE".
 
Preterism is one more lie of the Devil.

Jesus said "endure to the end".. and that is Prophetic, and happens beyond the "Time of the Gentiles" that offers "The Gift of Salvation".

And notice.

You dont WORK or ENDURE... to get a "GIFT" from God.
Full preterist I would agree

Partial preterism I would deny

It is an historical fact in 70 A.d. Jerusalem experienced great tribulation and reading the backgroud of the passage it very much sounds like an ancient and local agricultural society

Matthew 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

you will also notice the elect are in it and not raptured out of it as dispensationialism would have men believe
 
Full preterist I would agree

How did i know that?

Partial preterism I would deny

Deny it all and run from it, as its a cult mindset, that isn't as bad as Calvinism..but why have a theological mental stronghold, for any reason?
It is an historical fact in 70 A.d. Jerusalem experienced great tribulation

And just wait until the time of the Gentiles is over and the Grt TRIB starts.. (3.5 yrs into the Trib).

The world of HUMANITY is going to want mountains to fall on them.

If you are born again, you'll miss it.
if you are arn't and end up in the Trib, then be martyr'd or endure to the end of it, if you can, but dont take the "mark". @TomL
 
You falsely accuse me of mocking God. I did not mock God. I mocked the dispensational doctrine which twists the truth of scripture.
You dodged the issue I raised because you are not getting your theology from the scriptures by believing what they say and to whom they say it. I am wondering if amillennialists and those who teach replacement theology have ever read the scriptures where promises are made by a thrice holy God who cannot lie.

It is not okay to teach that God cannot be believed. God tells us over and over in his prophetic words what his end time goal is and how he is going to prosecute it and what entities will be involved and who will be left alive when his judgement of all the earth is ended.

This describes the government of God called in the NT "the kingdom of heaven" which just means the rule of heaven over the earth by the King who was sent by God from heaven to rule for him.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

"That day" describes the 1000 year day of the LORD which begins with a 3 1/2 year judgement upon the whole world,, the seventh and the last day in time. The day that follows this day is the "day of God" which is an eternal day with no end. (Re 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there).

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

These things have not happened on the earth yet and you would have us to believe the prophet is mistaken and these statements of his are of no consequence?
 
Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified:

"You heard me! Don’t study dispensationalism, study the Bible dispensationally. Rightly
Dividing the Word is the key to understanding the Bible, but what do you do with a key?
You don’t study it. Once you know how it works, you use it to unlock the lock for which it
was designed. Well, once you understand the principle of Right Division,
use it to unlock the Scriptures it was designed to open to your understanding.

If you are a Grace pastor or teacher, don’t teach dispensationalism, “preach The Word” (2 Tim. 4:2)
dispensationally considered. Brother Les Feldick has done a tremendous job of reaching people
with the Truth of the Rightly Divided Word, grounding them in it, and helping them grow in it, all
by simply teaching through the Bible, verse by verse, “according to The Revelation of The Mystery”
(Rom. 16:25). The saints to whom you minister can flourish under the same type of ministry.

So whether you are a Grace believer or even a Grace pastor, don’t study the Grace Message. If that’s
all you do, you will never be able to answer the challenges our opponents raise to the Truth. But the
man of God who has studied every verse they cite in its context will be thoroughly equipped to
“fight the good fight of faith” (1 Tim. 6:12), “war a good warfare” (1 Tim. 1:18), and “please Him Who
hath chosen him to be a soldier” (2 Tim. 2:4)"
(R Kurth Two Minutes)

Amen.

View attachment 511
There are things that are the same across all time zones like Faith and Justification. And there are things that are different across time zones like Regeneration. We need to be very careful how the Bible defines and reveals each time zone.
 
How did i know that?



Deny it all and run from it, as its a cult mindset, that isn't as bad as Calvinism..but why have a theological mental stronghold, for any reason?


And just wait until the time of the Gentiles is over and the Grt TRIB starts.. (3.5 yrs into the Trib).

The world of HUMANITY is going to want mountains to fall on them.

If you are born again, you'll miss it.
if you are arn't and end up in the Trib, then be martyr'd or endure to the end of it, if you can, but dont take the "mark". @TomL
You miss my point

I agree full preterism is an error

I denied your claim regarding partial preterism

The book of revelation speaks of what is and what shall soon be and the things that come after

The bible simply does not teach any pretrib rapture

Rather it shows resurrection, the catching of the living at Christ's second advent
 
You miss my point

I agree full preterism is an error

I denied your claim regarding partial preterism

The book of revelation speaks of what is and what shall soon be and the things that come after

The bible simply does not teach any pretrib rapture

Rather it shows resurrection, the catching of the living at Christ's second advent
Actually, it doesn't show ressurrection, the catching of the living at Christ's second advent. The Revelation is about that time in history leading up to the time Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven. In chapter 1 no unsaved eye has ever seen him since he rose from the dead and now he tells us of a time when every eye will see him. (If you are unsaved at this point you are doomed because salvation is by faith, not sight)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The above prophecy tells us what will happen and Revelation 19 tells us what did happen and both passages are speaking of the same event. What is obvious that neither of these passages says anyting about a "catching" and removal from earth. The exact opposite is true. He brings people and angels "from" heaven to the earth to reign with him on the earth. He does not take anyone from earth to heaven to do anything.

This information has me asking how can a wide ranging group of professing Christians, when reading this, tell us that it says something 180 degrees removed from what it actually says? Well, read this dear reader for yourself and ask yourself if this is a PTL moment.

Re 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It is a purging of sinners out of the earth in preparation for King Jesus to rule over a converted earth just like has been told us by the prophets of God in numerous books and passages over thousands of years of time. Amen! Praise God for his truth!
 
Actually, it doesn't show ressurrection, the catching of the living at Christ's second advent. The Revelation is about that time in history leading up to the time Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven. In chapter 1 no unsaved eye has ever seen him since he rose from the dead and now he tells us of a time when every eye will see him. (If you are unsaved at this point you are doomed because salvation is by faith, not sight)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The above prophecy tells us what will happen and Revelation 19 tells us what did happen and both passages are speaking of the same event. What is obvious that neither of these passages says anyting about a "catching" and removal from earth. The exact opposite is true. He brings people and angels "from" heaven to the earth to reign with him on the earth. He does not take anyone from earth to heaven to do anything.

This information has me asking how can a wide ranging group of professing Christians, when reading this, tell us that it says something 180 degrees removed from what it actually says? Well, read this dear reader for yourself and ask yourself if this is a PTL moment.

Re 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It is a purging of sinners out of the earth in preparation for King Jesus to rule over a converted earth just like has been told us by the prophets of God in numerous books and passages over thousands of years of time. Amen! Praise God for his truth!
It's not the only passage in the bible


1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
 
It's not the only passage in the bible


1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

What does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 have in common with Revelation 19:1-21? Surely not the language. What is this word "precede" all about? Precede in what? The answer is precede in resurrection. There are two groups of people here. Those who are asleep in Christ, meaning dead and buried, and those who are physically alive when he comes. Both are meeting together with Christ in the air in a glorified body, according to the text and the body of doctrine concerning the gathering and the translation of the church of Jesus Christ..

Now, search the scriptures. Look high and low and you will not find an unsaved man who has died and been buried described as a man who is asleep. Unsaved men are dead. Only saved men are said to be asleep when they die.

Here are some things in 1 Thess 4 that are not in Rev 19.


Resurrection.
The Lord shouting
The voice of the Archangel
The sound of a trumpet
life
The Lord meeting the glorified saints of both groups in the clouds
caught up in the clouds
The resurrected going to be with Jesus Christ forever

Here are some things in Rev 19 that are not in 1Thess 4:15-17.

A white horse
Heaven opened
Judgement
War
The armies of heaven on white horses
A sharp sword coming out of the mouth of God
Smiting the nations with the sword and ruling over them
The fierceness and wrath of almighty God
The flesh eating birds eating the bodies of dead men
Death


There is nothing in the words of these scriptures to suggest they are describing the same event.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Acts 3:
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, (it has not come to pass yet) that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


The tribulation described in Revelation has this end for Israel, a baptism of fire for the sake of purging out the chaff from among the wheat.

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel’s hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

They were baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 2 but they have not yet been baptized with fire. I know that because the purging has not taken place and most of them are Christ rejecters at this very day. The unquenchable fire is the tribulation, the wrath of God.
 
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What does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 have in common with Revelation 19:1-21? Surely not the language. What is this word "precede" all about? Precede in what? The answer is precede in resurrection. There are two groups of people here. Those who are asleep in Christ, meaning dead and buried, and those who are physically alive when he comes. Both are meeting together with Christ in the air in a glorified body, according to the text and the body of doctrine concerning the gathering and the translation of the church of Jesus Christ..
Very simply resurrection and rapture (catching up of the living)are mentioned here at Christ's coming as stated

1 Thessalonians 4:13–15 (NASB 2020) — 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.




Now, search the scriptures. Look high and low and you will not find an unsaved man who has died and been buried described as a man who is asleep. Unsaved men are dead. Only saved men are said to be asleep when they die.
Irrelevant to the point both resurrection and rapture transpire at the coming of Christ








Here are some things in 1 Thess 4 that are not in Rev 19.


Resurrection.
The Lord shouting
The voice of the Archangel
The sound of a trumpet
life
The Lord meeting the glorified saints of both groups in the clouds
caught up in the clouds
The resurrected going to be with Jesus Christ forever

resurrection and rapture as stated



Here are some things in Rev 19 that are not in 1Thess 4:15-17.

A white horse
Heaven opened
Judgement
War
The armies of heaven on white horses
A sharp sword coming out of the mouth of God
Smiting the nations with the sword and ruling over them
The fierceness and wrath of almighty God
The flesh eating birds eating the bodies of dead men
Death

A picture of the victory of Christ's kingdom


There is nothing in the words of these scriptures to suggest they are describing the same event.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Who cares?

My point is resurrection and rapture transpire at the coming of Christ
 
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