Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[civic]

How are you amigo-

doing good I started a new job in January and its keeping me really busy. Our mens discipleship groups are doing great.

please pray for my wife today as we are going to a memorial service this afternoon for her younger sister. she told me last night she did not want to go but knows she has to go. she has also been all over the place with her diabetes with highs and lows. thanks !

 

[Johann]

doing good I started a new job in January and its keeping me really busy. Our mens discipleship groups are doing great.

please pray for my wife today as we are going to a memorial service this afternoon for her younger sister. she told me last night she did not want to go but knows she has to go. she has also been all over the place with her diabetes with highs and lows. thanks !

Will do brother-please do the same for me.
J.

 

[civic]

Will do brother-please do the same for me.
J.

Thanks I will.

 

[TedT]

Many sincere, Bible-believing Christian are "Calvinists" only by default. Thinking that the only choice is between Calvinism (with its presumed doctrine of eternal security) and Arminianism (with its teaching that salvation can be lost), and confident of Christ's promise to keep eternally those who believe in Him, they therefore consider themselves to be Calvinists.

This describes the me of the early 70s. I was immensely dissatisfied with it but felt I had no other real option.

Then I was introduced to the theology of our pre-conception, ie, our pre-earth existence of Christian theology (PCE Theology) and how it dissolves the recurring doublethink* methods used by orthodoxy to solve the contradictions caused by the theory of our being created on earth and the thousands of books of theo-babble necessary to deal with the chaos the accepted theory of our creation and fall causes.

Most of my posts explain an interpretation of some of the multi-dozens of scriptures that can be seen as supporting PCE theology, often much better than the orthodox interpretations provide.

* Doublethink - holding the idea that opposites can both be true at the same time such as 1. GOD is holy so cannot create evil is true at the same time that 2. He creates mankind evil as sinners from conception either by means of our being born into Adam or by some other method.

 

[Johann]

Then I was introduced to the theology of our pre-conception, ie, our pre-earth existence of Christian theology (PCE Theology) and how it dissolves the recurring doublethink* methods used by orthodoxy to solve the contradictions caused by the theory of our being created on earth and the thousands of books of theo-babble necessary to deal with the chaos the accepted theory of our creation and fall causes.

Most of my posts explain an interpretation of some of the multi-dozens of scriptures that can be seen as supporting PCE theology, often much better than the orthodox interpretations provide.

To be honest-I had to look this up re "pre-conception"-from whence does this come from-

The concept of pre-existence in Christian theology, particularly the belief in the pre-existence of Christ, has historical roots dating back to early church fathers like Origen of Alexandria in the second and third centuries. Origen advanced the idea that each human soul was created by God at some time prior to earthly existence, emphasizing a pre-mortal existence of souls

Origen's teachings on pre-existence were based on biblical passages like Romans 9:11-14 and Jeremiah 1:5, which he interpreted as evidence supporting his position

However, the belief in pre-existence faced opposition within Christianity, leading to its condemnation as heresy in the Second Council of Constantinople in AD 553. Church Fathers Tertullian and Jerome held to alternative views like traducianism and creationism, respectively, denying the pre-existence of Christ and human souls

The rejection of pre-existence became more widespread within Christianity following the edict by Pope Vigilius in AD 543, which declared the doctrine of pre-existence as heretical

Despite its condemnation within mainstream Christianity, the concept of pre-existence persisted in certain religious traditions like Mormonism, where it is considered a fundamental doctrine. The Book of Mormon and teachings by Joseph Smith emphasized the idea of a premortal existence for human souls and Christ, highlighting a belief in a spiritual existence before earthly life

The historical debate surrounding pre-existence reflects differing theological perspectives within Christian thought regarding the nature of human souls and Christ's existence before his incarnation.

Pre-existence - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If this is your worldview let me know-or maybe poor reading comprehension on my part.
Johann

 

[TedT]

The reformed Calvinist would say that election means that God chose some people for salvation prior to the foundation of the world.

This I agree with but only if it refers to real people (not just imaginary people in HIS mind) real innocents, not sinners, innocents who, by their free, uncoerced, will put their faith in HIS proclamation of HIS deity and the gospel, Col 1:23 and Isaiah 40:21, before they ever sinned and by this faith they were chosen / elected to salvation and to be HIS Bride no matter whether they may sin in the future.

Those who are damned were passed over for being chosen to salvation because they made a free will decision to reject HIS claims to be our creator GOD and HIS gospel of salvation as lies and therefore they rebuked HIM as a liar and therefore a false GOD driven by a psychotic megalomania.

NO unconditional election.
NO unconditional reprobation...
but real people choosing their own FATE by their own free will and being sealed into that choice by the promise of salvation (election) for those who out their faith in HIM and the condemnation of those who rejected HIM, the unforgivable sin.

 

[TedT]

Snodgrass, in his commentary on Ephesians 1:4, said that “Individuals are not elected and then put in Christ. They are in Christ and therefore elect.”

PCE theology suggests that Election did indeed bring them into Christ as family but some went astray into sin as His sheep* which forced the postponement of the judgement and they were sent (sowed) to live with the reprobate to learn to eschew sinfulness, Matt 13:27-30, so the judgement day could proceed.

*His sheep who have gone astray RETURN to Him:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

Since we are conceived as sinners, we must have had our rebellion prior to our conception into mankind on earth.

 

[TedT]

To be honest-I had to look this up re "pre-conception"-from whence does this come from-

The concept of pre-existence in Christian theology,

Sorry, you've already bought into the scorn of orthodoxy for the theology of our pre-earth existence as the term pre-existence is meaningless as nothing can pre-exist its existence.

The theology describes the scriptural indications of our pre-earth existence, our pre-conception existence...not any meaningless pre-existence before our creation / existence.

 

[TedT]

The concept of pre-existence in Christian theology, particularly the belief in the pre-existence of Christ, has historical roots dating back to early church fathers like Origen of Alexandria in the second and third centuries.

...A lot longer than that, my friend.

In Judaism:
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12340-preexistence-of-the-soul
Here the Rabbis question whether the soul descends to earth at the moment of conception or after the embryo has been formed (Sanh. 90a).

Also: In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3: http://tinyurl.com/cnpetph

Catholicism:
The Book of Wisdom, or the Wisdom of Solomon, is a Jewish work written in Greek and most likely composed in Alexandria, Egypt. Generally dated to the mid-first century BC, or to the reign of Caligula (AD 37-41), the central theme of the work is "wisdom" itself, appearing under two principal aspects. wiki

This book is still accepted as Biblical in the Catholic cannon and it includes the (ignored) verse:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body....
or
(JB) I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.


So Origin did not make up the theology of our pre-conception existence but just tried to understand it. Politics 500 some years later quashed him....

 

[Johann]

...A lot longer than that, my friend.

In Judaism:
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12340-preexistence-of-the-soul
Here the Rabbis question whether the soul descends to earth at the moment of conception or after the embryo has been formed (Sanh. 90a).

Also: In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3: http://tinyurl.com/cnpetph

Catholicism:
The Book of Wisdom, or the Wisdom of Solomon, is a Jewish work written in Greek and most likely composed in Alexandria, Egypt. Generally dated to the mid-first century BC, or to the reign of Caligula (AD 37-41), the central theme of the work is "wisdom" itself, appearing under two principal aspects. wiki

This book is still accepted as Biblical in the Catholic cannon and it includes the (ignored) verse:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body....
or
(JB) I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.


So Origin did not make up the theology of our pre-conception existence but just tried to understand it. Politics 500 some years later quashed him....

So if I "hear" you correctly-you believe we already pre-existed? Rabbinical writings and Sages are not my go to and neither is Origin.
What do you make of the Aorists in Scripture re our conception?

 

[TedT]

Despite its condemnation within mainstream Christianity, the concept of pre-existence persisted in certain religious traditions like Mormonism, where it is considered a fundamental doctrine. The Book of Mormon and teachings by Joseph Smith emphasized the idea of a premortal existence for human souls and Christ, highlighting a belief in a spiritual existence before earthly life

When we were working on our understanding of PCE theology in the mid 70s we had a meeting with 3 Mormon 'elders'. We explained our relationship with the Spirit who had brought us to Christ and how He had led us to this theology. After listening to and arguing against our Christian definitions of salvation etc and interpretations of scripture, they denounced us as heretics and our Holy Spirit as a demon.

So, no, I don't guess we are Mormons at all in the least, considering them to be the heretics and led by demons, sigh.

No, our soteriology is pretty basic and orthodox - we just do not ascribe to the accepted interpretation of our creation and fall.

 

[TedT]

So if I "hear" you correctly-you believe we already pre-existed? Rabbinical

I think so but the meaning of your question is unclear to me...

I think that as Sons of GOD, we, me and thee, were at the creation of the physical universe and sang HIS praises with everyone else as per
Berean Standard Bible
Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? and that all sinners were flung to the earth (specifically into Sheol inside the Earth), Rev 12:4-9, from whence we are sown, not created, into this world, Matt 13:36-39 and where the wicked will return upon their death,
Berean Standard Bible
Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
to await the Great White Throne judgement.

Rabbinical writings and Sages are not my go to and neither is Origin.

Me neither but as you noticed, I only mentioned them to attest to the age of the history of PCE theology... It was the rabbis after all that taught the church Fathers that Adam and Eve were new creations when they came into the garden, and not already sinners as the story suggests in at least 5 different ways if one is not totally overwhelmed with rabbinic orthodoxy.

What do you make of the Aorists in Scripture re our conception?

I don't know yet...could you please point to specifics for me?

 

[Rockson]

PCE theology suggests that Election did indeed bring them into Christ as family but some went astray into sin as His sheep* which forced the postponement of the judgement and they were sent (sowed) to live with the reprobate to learn to eschew sinfulness, Matt 13:27-30, so the judgement day could proceed.

This whole concept is so weird and abnormal it's not worthy of any acceptance.
So we're to believe God would give loving parents these evil before born children raise them up in love, imparting within them good values, pray for their spiritual growth and improvement only to find out God has given them a devil? So many other reason s why this whole thing wouldn't hold water too.

 

[TedT]

This whole concept is so weird and abnormal it's not worthy of any acceptance.
So we're to believe God would give loving parents these evil before born children raise them up in love, imparting within them good values, pray for their spiritual growth and improvement only to find out God has given them a devil? So many other reason s why this whole thing wouldn't hold water too.

So you reject all sin in the child until the age of autonomy, perhaps?

But death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life so death proves sinfulness and embryos die, fetus' die and newborns die, all ages are proven to be sinful.
Ezekiel 18:3 As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die....another proof death is not separated from sinfulness.

And are not children under judgement?
Berean Standard Bible
1 Sam 15:3 Now go and attack the Amalekites and devote to destruction all that belongs to them. Do not spare them, but put to death men and women, CHILDREN and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

Berean Standard Bible
Josh 8:21 At the edge of the sword they devoted to destruction everything in the city—man and woman, YOUNG and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys.

Berean Standard Bible
GEN 19:24 Then the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus He destroyed these cities and the entire plain, including all the inhabitants of the cities and everything that grew on the ground.

Do you really think that HE judges as sinners those who are not sinful? The mind boggles...

Berean Standard Bible
Jer 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity.

Ezekiel 18:4 ...The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Ezekiel 18:20 ...The soul who sins is the one who will die.

 

[Taylor]

Going through tumultuous times in real time-no, I am not a street preacher.
J.

Oh sorry I don't know where I got that in my head. We know that God will protect you no matter what you're going through.

 

[Taylor]

Will do brother-please do the same for me.
J.

In the name of Jesus I ask you Lord to protect my brothers in Christ. Keep Their family safe heal civics' wife's diabetes and stabilize her condition. I pray that the memorial service for her sister goes well. Thank you Jesus, amen

 

[Rockson]

So you reject all sin in the child until the age of autonomy, perhaps?

Come on Ted. Don't try to sound too impressive. Explain what you mean by this.
Are you meaning an age of accountability? Yes I do believe there's a certain state, where God holds one accountable but not as a baby or a young child.

But death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life so death proves sinfulness and embryos die, fetus' die and newborns die, all ages are proven to be sinful.

IT DOES NOT. Not in the way you're putting this together. When Adam +Eve sinned it released a degeneration upon the physical things of life including creation. In infected genetics even, corrupted them and made them with a potential to fail. Because a fetus dies IT DOES NOT mean they did something prebirth wrong if that's what you're trying to say.

And are not children under judgement?

No they are not! They ARE NOT under judgment for their sin.

Berean Standard Bible
1 Sam 15:3 Now go and attack the Amalekites and devote to destruction all that belongs to them. Do not spare them, but put to death men and women, CHILDREN and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

Now Christian Think Tank has some good articles written on this subject too long for me to explain in a post. There's a line upon line understanding that needs to be brought through to give one the best understanding of all this. In the link below scroll down half way through the article and I believe you're come to the understanding of this thing. But it is not children were being judged for their sins.

Link here below, (it doesn't look like a link until you click it on)

Shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

Do you really think that HE judges as sinners those who are not sinful?

Click on the link above and go through it. You'll come to the place he did not judge children for their sins.

 

[Johann]

Now Christian Think Tank has some good articles written on this subject too long for me to explain in a post. There's a line upon line understanding that needs to be brought through to give one the best understanding of all this. In the link below scroll down half way through the article and I believe you're come to the understanding of this thing. But it is not children were being judged for their sins.

Link here below, (it doesn't look like a link until you click it on)

Shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekite children be considered war crimes?

Excellent site and peruse CTT myself!

 

[Rockson]

Excellent site and peruse CTT myself!

It does a pretty good job at explaining many things that some consider are inexplainable.

 

[TomL]

doing good I started a new job in January and its keeping me really busy. Our mens discipleship groups are doing great.

please pray for my wife today as we are going to a memorial service this afternoon for her younger sister. she told me last night she did not want to go but knows she has to go. she has also been all over the place with her diabetes with highs and lows. thanks !

My wife takes high doses of Chromium to avoid taking medicine. Has successfully done so for many years.