That proves that there are two separate wills.
Nope, did you just forget that you just proved that there are 2 wills?
What do you think was happening when Jesus was sweating blood during his prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane?
Do Trinitarians really know their foundational core doctrines and their impact on their beliefs and others?
- Thread starter APAK
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so you cannot understand how the incarnate Son can have a will of the flesh that he needs to prepare for in the face of the suffering he is about to face?
Both the will of the Father and the will of the Lord Jesus are equally authoritative.
In reference to the Father: "Thy will be done" (Matthew 6:10).
In reference to the Lord Jesus: "The will of the Lord be done" (Acts 21:14).
Both "the will of the Lord" and "the will of God" are equally authoritative.
Ephesians 5:17 (thelēma)
So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Ephesians 6:6 (thelēma)
not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
Both "if the Lord wills" and "if God wills" are equally authoritative.
1 Corinthians 4:19 (thelō)
But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power.
Acts 18:21 (thelō)
but taking leave of them and saying, “I will return to you again if God wills,” he set sail from Ephesus.
James 4:15 (thelō)
Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
Both "if the Lord permits" and "if God permits" are equally authoritative.
1 Corinthians 16:7 (epitrepō)
For I do not wish to see you now just in passing; for I hope to remain with you for some time, if the Lord permits.
Hebrews 6:3 (epitrepō)
And this we will do, if God permits.
In reference to the Father: "Thy will be done" (Matthew 6:10).
In reference to the Lord Jesus: "The will of the Lord be done" (Acts 21:14).
Both "the will of the Lord" and "the will of God" are equally authoritative.
Ephesians 5:17 (thelēma)
So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Ephesians 6:6 (thelēma)
not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
Both "if the Lord wills" and "if God wills" are equally authoritative.
1 Corinthians 4:19 (thelō)
But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power.
Acts 18:21 (thelō)
but taking leave of them and saying, “I will return to you again if God wills,” he set sail from Ephesus.
James 4:15 (thelō)
Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.”
Both "if the Lord permits" and "if God permits" are equally authoritative.
1 Corinthians 16:7 (epitrepō)
For I do not wish to see you now just in passing; for I hope to remain with you for some time, if the Lord permits.
Hebrews 6:3 (epitrepō)
And this we will do, if God permits.
DavidTree
Well-known member
You are not understanding the dynamic of God taking on the form of a man.
Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
Peterlag
Well-known member
Are you telling me that everyone who knows they are a King is God? Jesus was the King of the Jews.
DavidTree
Well-known member
JESUS is KING of kings!
JESUS is LORD of lords!
Revelation 19:11-16
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.
And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.
He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
That should be obvious that anyone who has come into the world from heaven as king will know he is God
Peterlag
Well-known member
Yes he is the king of the Jews and he's the Lord, the Messiah. None of those terms means he's God. God made Jesus to be both Lord and Christ when He raised him out from among the dead.
DavidTree
Well-known member
The Scripture of TRUTH declares that JESUS is KING over all kings.
The Scripture of TRUTH declares that JESUS is LORD over all lords.
There is one God and FATHER
There is one LORD Jesus Christ
There is one Holy Spirit
These THREE are ONE
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen
If presenting this idea, what was Christ Jesus in heaven before he was sent? Maybe someone is grabbing Greco-Roman metaphysics to overlay over scriptures?
or worse set someone could be referring to reincarnation such as found in ancient Catharism.
We do not know Peterlag's broader perspective on the essence of Christ though. There are numerous holes he leaves in his presentation to us -- many interpretations where he seems to replace Christ's divinity with some half-thought-out alternative.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
Everything you posted above is correct. Jesus in his resurrected body is King and Lord. And all authority was given him by God when God raised him from the dead. None of this is saying Jesus is God.
DavidTree
Well-known member
The Apostle John directly states that Jesus is God BEFORE He came to earth as a man = John chapter 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us(prophecy fulfilled), and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Yes, actually the Bible DOES SAY EXACTLY THAT. In fact, Jesus said it Himself:
John 8:54 "... it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; ..."
So "the Father" and "God" are synonymous.
You really should check the scripture before spreading false information.
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's a silly question. No one ever said that. Jesus is more than just the King of the Jews. He is "King of Kings, and Lord of Lords". Rev. 19:16
He is also "the Ruler of the Kings of the earth." Rev.1:5
You misread Peterlag's thought. He is trying to say that people are misreading the places where Paul says stuff like him as an apostle of God and our Lord Christ. Peterlag sees this as two distinct entities (with Christ not divine) but Christians see this as God (the Father) such that "God" does not exclude the divinity of Christ.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Well, I do not agree about the silly question since I think the trinity is a very silly concept. Yes Jesus is the king of kings and the Lord of Lords once he was the resurrected Messiah. The resurrected son of God who God made both Lord and Christ when He raised him out from among the dead is qualified to hold all the positions you quote and none of them means he's God.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The word "Father" is not a creature. It's a name. I cannot say that because I'm an uncle, brother, and cousin that there's 3 of me. Those are titles and names. You don't go to the doctor and ask to check the blood of the uncle in you. Can we at least make sense when we talk?
Peterlag
Well-known member
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
DavidTree
Well-known member
#1 - The Bible does not say "In the beginning was Jesus" because He had not yet come down to earth.
#2 - The Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
#3.) - This same WORD that was God in the Beginning came to earth as a man = John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
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