Do Trinitarians really know their foundational core doctrines and their impact on their beliefs and others?

[mikesw]

#1 - The Bible does not say "In the beginning was Jesus" because He had not yet come down to earth.

#2 - The Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

#3.) - This same WORD that was God in the Beginning came to earth as a man = John 1:14

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

couldn't this just be some secondary phenomena that we don't hear about later? Couldn't John just have had some chapter from a novel he was writing where something different than Christ Jesus was in mind but John forgot to write it on a different bit of parchment? Maybe Peterlag can clarify this for us. Maybe there is no other application of this passage except to the Son having become incarnate.

 

[DavidTree]

couldn't this just be some secondary phenomena that we don't hear about later? Couldn't John just have had some chapter from a novel he was writing where something different than Christ Jesus was in mind but John forgot to write it on a different bit of parchment? Maybe Peterlag can clarify this for us. Maybe there is no other application of this passage except to the Son having become incarnate.

The Scriptures were written in simple grade school grammar BECAUSE God so loved the world that "WHOSOEVER" can believe and be Saved.

We KNOW this to be true because JESUS said so = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

So called 'adults' really know how to make complicated that which God made so Simple.

 

[mikesw]

The Scriptures were written in simple grade school grammar BECAUSE God so loved the world that "WHOSOEVER" can believe and be Saved.

We KNOW this to be true because JESUS said so = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

So called 'adults' really know how to make complicated that which God made so Simple.

Yep. The scriptures are beneficial to a child to know Christ but also has deeper truths worthy for a king to search out (if we want to speak based on a point in the proverbs). I think also that some people will offer explanations, like alternatives to the divinity of Christ, that would not be in the vocabulary of the first century people -- like one guy who said of the point "before Abraham was I am" could refer to a multi-dimensional existence instead of Christ's divinity. Help me if I cannot remember which rabbis of the first century spoke about multi-dimensional universes.

 

[Peterlag]

#1 - The Bible does not say "In the beginning was Jesus" because He had not yet come down to earth.

#2 - The Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

#3.) - This same WORD that was God in the Beginning came to earth as a man = John 1:14

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[DavidTree]

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

John 1:1 - the WORD was GOD
John 1:14 the WORD became flesh = GOD came down to earth in the form of a man = LORD Jesus Christ

 

[dwight92070]

The word "Father" is not a creature. It's a name. I cannot say that because I'm an uncle, brother, and cousin that there's 3 of me. Those are titles and names. You don't go to the doctor and ask to check the blood of the uncle in you. Can we at least make sense when we talk?

I have been. When will you start?

 

[Peterlag]

John 1:1 - the WORD was GOD
John 1:14 the WORD became flesh = GOD came down to earth in the form of a man = LORD Jesus Christ

I don't see what you see. There seems to me to be no reason for God to come down to earth to be a man. Such a concept would accomplish nothing. There is no record in the Old Testament where God would ever let anyone disrespect Him. You were dead if you walked in the wrong room in the Temple or if you bumped into the Ark of the Covenant. Nobody beats up God or spits at Him.

 

[DavidTree]

I don't see what you see. There seems to me to be no reason for God to come down to earth to be a man. Such a concept would accomplish nothing. There is no record in the Old Testament where God would ever let anyone disrespect Him. You were dead if you walked in the wrong room in the Temple or if you bumped into the Ark of the Covenant. Nobody beats up God or spits at Him.

I don't see what you see.

Is it you cannot see or you do not want to see???

There seems to me to be no reason for God to come down to earth to be a man.

There is a IMPOSSIBLE Reason why God came down to earth to be a man.

There is no record in the Old Testament where God would ever let anyone disrespect Him.

Yes there is.
Here it is = 1 Samuel 8:1-8

Nobody beats up God or spits at Him

We all beat up on the only Begotten Son of God = It is your sins and mine that placed Him on the Cross.

Nobody beats up God or spits at Him.

Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face.
And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him.
But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”

 

[Peterlag]

Is it you cannot see or you do not want to see???


There is a IMPOSSIBLE Reason why God came down to earth to be a man.


Yes there is.
Here it is = 1 Samuel 8:1-8


We all beat up on the only Begotten Son of God = It is your sins and mine that placed Him on the Cross.


Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before His face.
And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him.
But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.
For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”

Nobody beats up God. Your Scripture of 1 Samuel 8 is not anybody beating up God. You can beat up men. But you cannot beat up God. And there is no reason to have God become a man. Such a concept is impossible. Can a man become a fly? Can a whale become a small fish? How do you beat up a Lion if you're a fly? And even if God could come down to be part man. What reason for doing so? There's none listed in the Bible. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[DavidTree]

Nobody beats up God. Your Scripture of 1 Samuel 8 is not anybody beating up God. You can beat up men. But you cannot beat up God. And there is no reason to have God become a man. Such a concept is impossible. Can a man become a fly? Can a whale become a small fish? How do you beat up a Lion if you're a fly? And even if God could come down to be part man. What reason for doing so? There's none listed in the Bible. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” Some theologians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

@Peterlag says:

And even if God could come down to be part man. What reason for doing so?

If God did not come down to earth as a man no one could be saved = NO ONE

There's none listed in the Bible.

YES, there is and you will find it in Genesis, the Prophets, the Gospel, Acts, Apostles, Revelation


You only have two choices
a.) Continue in unbelief and argue against scripture using flawed logic (fueled by unbelief).
b.) Do what every SAVED individual has done = humble oneself before God and have faith in His Word

 

[Peterlag]

@Peterlag says:

If God did not come down to earth as a man no one could be saved = NO ONE

YES, there is and you will find it in Genesis, the Prophets, the Gospel, Acts, Apostles, Revelation


You only have two choices
a.) Continue in unbelief and argue against scripture using flawed logic (fueled by unbelief).
b.) Do what every SAVED individual has done = humble oneself before God and have faith in His Word

There is no Scripture that says God had to come to the earth so that Christians can be saved. None. You're just making up stuff because you really want the trinity to be real.

 

[mikesw]

There is no Scripture that says God had to come to the earth so that Christians can be saved. None. You're just making up stuff because you really want the trinity to be real.

We certainly do want the Triune God to be real and honored. It would be a waste if God did not exist. If someone has another theory about the Godhead, it would be useful if he tried to make a solid argument in that direction and to cover the verses in question by having strong arguments of their meaning. So far we see how the alternative theories could have failed to be persuasive around the 4th century.

 

[DavidTree]

There is no Scripture that says God had to come to the earth so that Christians can be saved. None. You're just making up stuff because you really want the trinity to be real.

If God did not come down to earth as a man no one could be saved = NO ONE

Will you believe God at His Word???

 

[Micaiah]

If God did not come down to earth as a man no one could be saved = NO ONE

Wrong.

If God did not send Jesus down to the earth no one could be saved…

 

[Peterlag]

If God did not come down to earth as a man no one could be saved = NO ONE

Will you believe God at His Word???

That is simply not true and I don't know why you think that.

 

[DavidTree]

Wrong.

If God did not send Jesus down to the earth no one could be saved…

#1.) Try and disprove my Claim to Truth against the scriptures.

#2.) Prove your claim against the scriptures.

#3.) Submit to the Holy Scriptures and BELIEVE

 

[DavidTree]

That is simply not true and I don't know why you think that.

Simple: i believe all that the LORD says in His Word

 

[dwight92070]

All of Isaiah 59 tells us why God Himself had to come to the earth to bring salvation. Mankind was saturated with sin and something had to be done about it. The only way that would be possible is for Him to somehow take away our sin. And the only way that could be done was for "His own arm", who is Jesus, to die in our place. No man could do it, except the God - man.
Verse 16: "And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, and His righteousness upheld Him."
Isaiah 63:5 says the same thing:"
"I looked and there was no one to help, and I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, and My wrath upheld Me."
Psalm 98:1-2 "O sing to the Lord a new son, for He has done wonderful things, His right hand and His holy arm have gained the victory for Him, the Lord has made known His salvation, He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations."

 

[DavidTree]

All of Isaiah 59 tells us why God Himself had to come to the earth to bring salvation. Mankind was saturated with sin and something had to be done about it. The only way that would be possible is for Him to somehow take away our sin. And the only way that could be done was for "His own arm", who is Jesus, to die in our place. No man could do it, except the God - man.
Verse 16: "And He saw that there was no man, and was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, and His righteousness upheld Him."
Isaiah 63:5 says the same thing:"
"I looked and there was no one to help, and I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, and My wrath upheld Me."
Psalm 98:1-2 "O sing to the Lord a new son, for He has done wonderful things, His right hand and His holy arm have gained the victory for Him, the Lord has made known His salvation, He has revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations."

i love your memorandum here!

Can you prove it from Jesus own words???

 

[jeremiah1five]

There are very few Trinitarians and even Binitarians for that matter who know the details of this doctrines and beliefs.

The trinity doctrine became the doctrine of the RCC by the end of the 5th century and later of the mainstream Protestants from the 16th century AD and on.

This god model with its incorporated core pivotal set of self-developing doctrines began in primitive forms during severe times of political and religious turmoil and persecution, over several centuries. The early Christians of the first century would not recognize most of these doctrines as the word of God.

Essentially, this god model states there always existed one eternal divine nature or essence or substance presented in the form or as part of three different and unique personalities or persons who collectively are called the one god or the triune god – a triad god. And it says that all three personalities operate interdependently as the one creator, the sovereign, the omnipotent, omnipresent ‘one’ god. And these three persons are labelled as three different roles or titled gods, although it insists they are not considered three separate gods. They are three person god titles in one strict order, as the first, the father, the second the son and third, the holy spirit.

Additionally, this god model calls for Jesus, as only being a divine person, acquiring or 'taking on' human nature through a process they call incarnation incorporated from Greek philosophy when he also donned human flesh and became a human male. And that means this person called Jesus after this process of incarnation of one divine hypostasis, is not or cannot be a human person under any circumstance. He was a human anhypostasis. Jesus had to be void of a human personality and therefore had no sense of human self or awareness, strictly speaking. And further, Jesus was also enhypostasis, his human nature was personalized to/into his divine person, as the 2nd person of the Trinity. And how all this occurred is fit for science fiction.

I hope so far all this is at least as clear as mud to everyone.

Deductively then, there are four outstanding points to be made thus far:

1. For this model to function, all three divine natured personalities must always function collectively, in-synch, transparently ubiquitously as one divine being of three divine persons else the triune god would fragment into separate person pieces. If just one of these cited three persons were not present, in synch or did not contribute to any action on this earth or in heaven, then their god would fragment into dust as certain myth.

2. For this model to function, Jesus Christ can only be a divine person and not a human person because then there could not be a triune god. Their triad or triune god would then become a quadrune god, of three divine persons and one human person.

3. For this model to function, Jesus Christ at some point in time acquired human nature besides divine nature, and therefore two natures in one divine person existed. And then at some later point in time discarded his human nature or kept it as dual natures in only one divine person. This would be critical in preserving the integrity of the triune god model. Does scripture ever remotely speak to this type of divine personality of Yahshua, the son of the true God.

4. For this model to function, Jesus must have pre-existed before he was incarnated into human flesh with the inclusion of human nature, absent of being a human person.

Now what impact does the presence of this type of Christian triune god have on scripture and the teachings of men and on people that receive this god? A great deal indeed! And we see the effects of this type of complex and undefined teaching today.

This is the reason for this thread, to list as many impacts caused by this triune god model on our beliefs, scripture, the teachings from religious writers and scholars, from Bible translators and from the orators who ride the pulpits on Saturdays and Sundays to many impressionable and ignorant human souls.

Does this god model bring folks close to the one true God, and does it really support the word of God when it says that Christ the Son of God clearly was born a HUMAN PERSON – a Son of MAN? According to John the gospel writer, this point is critical for belief for one’s salvation. One of the main threads and themes of the gospel of John especially, was to define and describe who was and is this man called Yahshua or Jesus - the true Son of God of a common born man.

Correction. The learning and understanding of the Trinity of God gained its fullest expression with the Advent of the Son while Jesus was alive, and Jews, after being born again was confirmed in the "hearts" of God's saved people.
The RCC had nothing to do with this revelation of God to His people as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19.)

This truth affects what you have written that follows the first two sentences. Once you correct that and bring it into compliance with the bible truth I'll come back and see how this has reformed your thinking and this post.