Do Trinitarians really know their foundational core doctrines and their impact on their beliefs and others?

[mikesw]

Show me where I said the devil glorifies Christ more so that we will not listen to Christ's message. And yes the trinity is Catholic. It's not Biblical. And on the dead that you mentioned... the Catholics taught us that when we die we are not really dead, but somehow we go right up to heaven or right down to hell.

ok. your memory is very short. you said "The devil could not pull Jesus down so he pushed him up."
Then you deny that Christians are with Christ upon death. Though, I'm not sure what you believe instead.
And you still attribute to the doctrines of scripture as being Romanisms. That indicates that you do not like doctrines from scripture.
I'm not sure what doctrines you have that match with Christians.

 

[Peterlag]

wow. you have new stuff. what is your point about the rejection of resurrection as you say it is wrong to say "dead people are alive"?

The other odd crazy thing you have said as a stand-out crazy item is your rejection that the four gospels are written to Christians. In my mind, I doubt they were, instead, written to Mongolians. we are left guessing what religion you are following.

See it's all Catholic stuff that you believe. You're Catholic.

 

[mikesw]

See it's all Catholic stuff that you believe. You're Catholic.

you use the sense that I am part of the universal church -- consisting of all who follow Christ -- as a derogatory term. If you are not part of the church, that is something you will just have to address with God. Someone will need to share the gospel of Christ with you. If you are being called of God, then you will become part of that universal church in its obedience to God. I'm not here to say that you could not come to Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

ok. your memory is very short. you said "The devil could not pull Jesus down so he pushed him up."
Then you deny that Christians are with Christ upon death. Though, I'm not sure what you believe instead.
And you still attribute to the doctrines of scripture as being Romanisms. That indicates that you do not like doctrines from scripture.
I'm not sure what doctrines you have that match with Christians.

Me saying ...The devil could not pull Jesus down so he pushed him up.

Is not the same as you saying I said... the devil glorifies Christ more so that we will not listen to Christ's message.

If you can't quote me accurately then I will not be able to converse with you. The Lord is not into deception.

 

[mikesw]

Me saying ...The devil could not pull Jesus down so he pushed him up.

Is not the same as you saying I said... the devil glorifies Christ more so that we will not listen to Christ's message.

If you can't quote me accurately then I will not be able to converse with you. The Lord is not into deception.

I am sharing the logic of the statement you made. You either agree with your logic or you have to change what you say.

 

[dwight92070]

Of course, a personal relationship with Jesus is the best way to "know and believe that Jesus is God".

But on an intellectual level, how is #2 "not sufficient evidence to know and believe that Jesus is God"?

I agree with you, but unfortunately some people are not satisfied with only one "piece" of evidence.

 

[mikesw]

If it is Unitarian doctrine being promoted, that seems to tie-in with the idea of Jesus just being one of the divine spokespeople. It could also mean that everyone is saved or, at least, anyone who follows morality or the dictates of their religion. At the same time, the morality could be inclusive of all people no matter what the do or believe.
The importance of the divinity of Christ becomes apparent. If God did not send his own Son from heaven, we would just be following another impressive man who died for interrupting the "system"

 

[synergy]

If it is Unitarian doctrine being promoted, that seems to tie-in with the idea of Jesus just being one of the divine spokespeople. It could also mean that everyone is saved or, at least, anyone who follows morality or the dictates of their religion. At the same time, the morality could be inclusive of all people no matter what the do or believe.
The importance of the divinity of Christ becomes apparent. If God did not send his own Son from heaven, we would just be following another impressive man who died for interrupting the "system"

The fact remains that only God saves. So if Jesus is not God then he is nothing more than an imposter. Everyone needs to take sides; there's no other option, no in-between options, only just those two options.

 

[mikesw]

That’s a noble quest.
I do think it is possible. Jesus Christ will take us to His Father, regardless of what we think of his metaphysical nature.
Jesus is beyond any debate, and His love for us is beyond question.

Like shared many times, the direct rejection of Christ's divinity may be an indicator that a person is not born of God. However, if a person simply has not thought about the divine nature of Christ, he or she may still be born of God but is ignorant of that important detail. Also, a person may have eternal life through Christ but be confused in doctrine. These situations however do not mean the person who willfully denies the deity of Christ will be justified in Christ.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

the 'Trinity' comes from Genesis

Thusly, Elohim is PLURAL

AND - the Verb that follows the plural Elohim: (Bara - create) is a SINGULAR verb form, which isn't good grammar. but it gives us a Plural GOD, acting in a completely singular united fashion.

 

[DavidTree]

AND - the Verb that follows the plural Elohim: (Bara - create) is a SINGULAR verb form, which isn't good grammar. but it gives us a Plural GOD, acting in a completely singular united fashion.

a Plural GOD, acting in a completely singular united fashion.

100% Correct from Genesis to Revelation

Thus the use of the hebrew word "Echad" for "One".

'Echad' is used when there is more then one but acting in concert as ONE = Deuteronomy 6:4

 

[Peterlag]

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

 

[mikesw]

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

Wow. Those are great finds. It is amazing how all the people who met together to discuss the divinity of Christ and the Triune nature of God missed those verses. Where's your gofundme page? I have to go write those verses into my bible. I'm sure they forgot to add those to my bible.

 

[DavidTree]

• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

The scriptures you quoted are speaking of Christ as taking on the form of a man = His humanity!

SEE = Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but [made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

The scriptures you quoted are speaking of Christ as taking on the form of a man = His humanity!

SEE = Philippians 2:5-11
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but [made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus prayed to God “not my will,but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

 

[Peterlag]

I find it interesting that the Church Epistles were authored by both God and Christ and we see this in 1 Corinthians 1:3 that says “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” There's a lot of Scripture that shows Jesus to be separate and distinct from“God” which is what the people of the time believed and expected. The Trinitarian explanation of these verses is that Jesus is God and so“God” means “the Father” when Jesus speaks of himself and “God.” But the Bible never says that. It's only because Trinitarian doctrine asserts that Jesus is God that the assumption is made that “God” means “the Father” when Jesus and God appear together.

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will,but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

They BOTH have the SAME Will.

Listen to Jesus:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 18:33-37
Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”

Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

 

[mikesw]

I find it interesting that the Church Epistles were authored by both God and Christ and we see this in 1 Corinthians 1:3 that says “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” There's a lot of Scripture that shows Jesus to be separate and distinct from“God” which is what the people of the time believed and expected. The Trinitarian explanation of these verses is that Jesus is God and so“God” means “the Father” when Jesus speaks of himself and “God.” But the Bible never says that. It's only because Trinitarian doctrine asserts that Jesus is God that the assumption is made that “God” means “the Father” when Jesus and God appear together.

Sure you find it interesting that the Church Epistles were authored by both God and Christ. Lots of scripture is interesting. Just remember the divinity of Christ. The evidence has been shared many times over since you came here.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus prayed to God “not my will,but yours, be done” because Jesus and God have separate wills (Luke 22:42; John 5:30). They would have one will if Jesus and the Father are the same “one God.” Trinitarian doctrine claims that Luke is referring to the human will of Jesus, and not his divine will, but that is problematic because the Bible never says anything like that or even hints that Jesus had two wills in conflict with each other inside him allowing one to be human and the other to be divine.

You wish so hard that Christ's divinity somehow be proven false. It would be nicer to see you defend Christ Jesus than deny who he is. For the sake of others it can help to mention that Jesus, being in the flesh, lived in the constraints of humanity and also related to people like people do to each other. We cannot fully explain how this works since we cannot understand God's essence except to the degree revealed. The ignorance of man is not a reason to deny the incarnation -- at least for many of us.

 

[Peterlag]

They BOTH have the SAME Will.

Listen to Jesus:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 18:33-37
Then Pilate entered the Praetorium again, called Jesus, and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

Jesus answered him, “Are you speaking for yourself about this, or did others tell you this concerning Me?”

Pilate answered, “Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered You to me. What have You done?”

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

They do not both have the same will...

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.