Did God Create Evil?

[TedT]

You think Lucifers rebellion came after the fall?

Here is one to consider, though I cannot prove it at all, for years now I have believed the creation and entirety of God's plan
came about because of Lucifer's rebellion.... Just my thoughts.

Carry on.

While I tend to agree with the tenor of these thoughts I disagree on specifics...

Fallen refers to the free will decision of someone to rebel against GOD's plans or even against HIMself as our LORD GOD.

I find the answer to why the judgement upon the demonic reprobate was postponed in favor of a prison planet for sinners as per Rev 12:4-9, in Matt 13:27-30 in which GOD tells the angels to postpone the destruction of the demonic reprobate, the weeds, so as to let them live together with the sinful but good seed (the fallen elect) until the harvest.
Iow,
GOD has chosen to delay the judgment day because, as HE wrote in the parable of the weeds, some of HIS sheep, HIS elect, have gone astray into sin and to call the judgment upon all evil ones would condemn them also against HIS election promise to them of salvation.

The parable tells us that we must live with the reprobate weeds. In other words, their influence upon us is good for our sanctification or HE could send them to Venus or Mars to wait for the judgment day with no need to afflict HIS people with their leaven and predacious evil.

The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that can save anyone from the judgment is a maturity in holiness, a perfect redemption and a full sanctification. Once these sinful elect, (ie, the last sinful elect) comes to a full repentance unto holiness in his heart, the elect sheep will be separated from the reprobate goats and the judgement will follow.

So it is the sins of the elect which forced the plan for earth as the prison of all sinners with a rehab centre in it for the fallen elect, HIS sheep gone astray into sin, as their best possible life to learn to come out from among the reprobate and to touch not their evil, ie, to become holy, the continuous call for HIS people as repeated in 2 Cor 6:17 Berean Standard Bible “Therefore come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” Deuteronomy 7:2-6 Numbers 16:21,26,45 Isaiah 52:11 Ezra 6:21

GOD's plan as expressed by our creation was to have a loving marriage relationship with HIS creation, ie, with those created in HIS image as able to become a perfect Bride for HIM. Some rejected that plan, becoming the unforgivable demonic reprobate . Earth is only the contingency plan to deal with the elect who went astray into sin by refusing to accept the damnation of the reprobate as an absolute necessity...

Earth and our earthly lives are not to deal with Satan (only the judgement will do that) but to deal with the sinfulness of HIS sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HIS sinful elect, to fulfill HIS plan for them to become HIS perfect Bride.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Did God Create Evil?'

'I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things. '
(Isa 45:7)

Hello @Foster,

We have not met before, but it is good to meet you.

The following are the notes in my Bible margin in relation to the verse above (Isaiah 45:7) which I thought you may like to see, if you have not already done so:-

Create:- Hebrew the Poel Participle of the verb 'bara’ (create) which, with "evil", requires the rendering "bring about". Not the same form as in verses: Isa. 45:8, Isa. 45:12, or Isa. 45:18, in connection with the earth. In Jer. 18:11 the verb is 'yazar', to frame, or mould. In Amo. 3:6 it is ’ashah', 'to bring about'. A word of wide meaning; its sense has to be determined by its context. Here, 'disturbance' in contrast with "peace".

Evil:- never rendered "sin". God brings calamity about as the inevitable consequence of sin. It is rendered "calamity" in Psa. 141:5; "adversity" in 1Sam.10:19. Psa. 94:13. Ecc. 7:14; "grief" in Neh. 2:10. Pro. 15:10. Ecc. 2:17. Jon. 4:6; "affliction" in Num.11:11; "misery" in Ecc. 8:6; "trouble" in Psa. 41:1; "Sore" in Deu. 6:22; "noisome" in Eze. 14:15, Eze, 14:21; "hurt" in Gen. 26:29; "wretchedness" in Num. 11:15; also "harm", "ill", and "mischief". Compare Jer. 18:11, and Amo. 3:6.
See note on "create", above.

* I hope you, or a fellow member, will find this useful.

That God be glorified.
Within Christ Jesus
Chris.

 

[TedT]

no its the original fall but occured after the creation week.

Hmmm...this would mean that they rebelled against HIM, HIS glorious majesty, rejecting HIM as their GOD, AFTER having seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power in the creation of the universe, Rom 1:20. Remember that old phrase, 'does not compute'??

I think that the serpent was already fallen when the garden was created and first inhabited...he came into the garden with evil intent to seduce Eve.

I suggest that Satan et al fell before seeing the proof of YHWH's divinity and eternal power or he would never have rebelled. But he was a sinner so that as Rom 1:18+ tells us, when he saw the truth he could not escape the grip of his sinfulness.

 

[jeremiah1five]

where is that scripture in the bible?

God create, not created evil. Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." 101G see no ed at the end of create. meaning that he is the Author of Evil. just as the mistake many think that the devil is sin, no he's only evil.

and just because something or some one is "EVIL" do not necessary means that they are SIN. both Good and Evil have their place in God economy of life. 101G suggest many need to study this scripture closely, Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

101G.

To understand man's creative 'make-up' there are three tenets of our understanding God:

There is only ONE God
There is NONE like Him
He gives His glory to NO ONE.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So God chose Lucifer to rebel? And 1/3 of the angels, allegedly.

No, those choices are part of their nature of being created "less" or fallen short of the glory of God.

The nature of chickens is to eat seed, and the nature of cheetahs is to eat meat. Chickens will not eat meat nor cheetahs eat seed. A leopard cannot change its spots.

Could be. It certainly has played nicely into God's plans that he made for this creation we live in.

Also backs up well in Is 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Bravo. This was a thought I never had. You done well.

Good to read. I've read many theological books and learned much but when I come to a passage that contradicts someone - even myself - I must reconsider my positions and understandings. Take for example the textbook teaching from many theologians through history who believe Lucifer and the angels that sinned are loose upon the earth and complicit in man's sinful ways. The so-called "the devil made me do it" cannot be true else upon what basis can God judge man if there is influence upon his choices by others? I think 2 Peter 2:4 gives me pause to hold that there are fallen angels loose on the planet doing their own thing. If God is Sovereign, then even fallen angels are obedient to God. But that is irrelevant when Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment. Or the belief that demons are fallen angels of a different class. Why create or coin a new Greek word to describe them as fallen angels? The Hebrew "malak" or the Greek "angelos" doesn't suffice? No, no, there's something else involved here. In the end we must all see the same Jesus; we must all say the same thing as God. To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

 

[Complete]

'I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things. '
(Isa 45:7)

Hello @Redemption,

The Subject Heading:- 'Did God create evil?'

The answer to that question is NO: as seen in (reply #62). in relation to Isaiah 45:7, and the words, 'I create evil: The word translated 'evil' there is never ever translated 'sin'. It is contrasted with the word 'peace' in this case, and means 'disturbance'.

'Sin entered into the world, and death by sin' (Rom. 5:12), through man's disobedience to God's known will (Gen. 2:17a).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Redemption]

No, those choices are part of their nature of being created "less" or fallen short of the glory of God.

Part of their nature of being created to me = Free Will

The nature of chickens is to eat seed, and the nature of cheetahs is to eat meat. Chickens will not eat meat nor cheetahs eat seed. A leopard cannot change its spots.

Man is not a chicken , or a cheetah, or a leopard. A man was given a brain through which he reasons and understands. The animal kingdom , while acting as if they have Free Will by selective choice... such as a dove picking a mate for life, or my one pup who will always pull out the red ball, no matter how many different colors of the same ball there is is said to be working on mere instinct. Man, however has learned, by the time they areat minimum , middle age, what the consequences are for
certain choices they might make, either by sheer experience or by seeing and hearing from others.

Yes, man certainly is made "less" or fallen short of the glory of God. So were the angels. But that does not mean those that
become reprobates have done so by merely being far less then God. I firmly believe the potential was instilled in us when God made the first brain... and breathed into Adam, which gave Him life.

There is far too much in the four corners of the Holy Book to deny free will.

If we do not have it, there is only one other alternative... and it is not because of of being created "less" or fallen short of the glory of God... it would be as Isaiah 45:7 7 states I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. And that would mean we have zero choice in areas of our lives because the master puppeteer, Our Father in Heaven controls the strings.

Good to read. I've read many theological books and learned much but when I come to a passage that contradicts someone - even myself - I must reconsider my positions and understandings. Take for example the textbook teaching from many theologians through history who believe Lucifer and the angels that sinned are loose upon the earth and complicit in man's sinful ways. The so-called "the devil made me do it" cannot be true else upon what basis can God judge man if there is influence upon his choices by others? I think 2 Peter 2:4 gives me pause to hold that there are fallen angels loose on the planet doing their own thing. If God is Sovereign, then even fallen angels are obedient to God. But that is irrelevant when Peter says the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment. Or the belief that demons are fallen angels of a different class. Why create or coin a new Greek word to describe them as fallen angels? The Hebrew "malak" or the Greek "angelos" doesn't suffice? No, no, there's something else involved here. In the end we must all see the same Jesus; we must all say the same thing as God. To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

You final paragraph here begs for comment but I have no time now. Perhaps later.

But in the meantime I would like to ask you if you believe that God's Sovereignty is all controlling?

Also are you a full or partial preterist?
If you look at the myriad of definitions they, too, are all over the board.

Would you not feel comforted If, he is controlling everything... to know that that flat tire, or running out of gas were controlled.

The Gospel Coalition definition

Yes, "sovereign" means that God has supreme authority and control over all creation, governing everything according to His will. This concept is central to Christian theology, emphasizing that nothing happens outside of God's control.

Just one link from Christianity today....

What is the "Sovereignty of God”? Bible Definition Explained

If you were to look up the word sovereign in the dictionary, you would find words like superior, and greatest, but the way I like to define God’s sovereignty best is simply to say, “God is in control.”

www.christianity.com

If God is Sovereign, Did God Create Evil?​

Watch Kay Arthur explain this complex question about how God in His sovereignty brings both prosperity and disaster.

“My husband and I have been through trials we never thought we’d go through. But we can walk in peace because we know that God is sovereign. And this God that sits on the throne, that creates good, that creates adversity; He is love.”

Billy Graham wrote the following
I know... there are those on here that truly detested that man.... but

Does God Determine Everything That Happens to Us or Can We Make Our Ow

“Does God determine everything that happens to us or can we make our own decisions regardless of what God would prefer we do in life? If he directs ou

billygraham.org

From the writings of the Rev. Billy Graham

For centuries, theologians have disagreed about God’s absolute control over everything, others emphasizing our freedom to act on our own. The reason they haven’t agreed is because the Bible teaches both God’s sovereignty and our human responsibility.

This may sound like a contradiction, but the Bible does not contradict itself; rather it says, “The entirety of [God’s] Word is truth” (Psalm 119:160).

It is unlikely that we’ll have a complete understanding of this until we get to Heaven. But until that day, we need to hold firmly to both truths: God is in control of everything, but we’re also responsible for our actions. Why is this important?

The Bible says, “For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him” (Philippians 2:14, NLT).

God is working behind the scenes to accomplish His purposes. This is why prayer is so vital to living the Christian life and making decisions that are according to His will. The Psalmist wrote, “I delight to do Your will” (Psalm 40:8).

Knowing God’s will is the highest of all wisdom. If we’re ignorant of God’s Word, we’ll be ignorant of God’s will. The greatest barrier is that we want to run our own lives. This battle is going on in our hearts between our wills and God’s will.

Just as God gave the first man, Adam, freedom to choose, so He’s given all people this same freedom. We’re not mere puppets. God’s desire is that we will seek His wisdom and obey His instruction. In this way, we can live the abundant life that He promises.
Find peace with God today.
Related Answers:
How do I live for God?
Why should we pray according to God’s will?
Are God's blessings tied to doing His will?
Is a 'no' from God really a blessing?

Now, I have to run.... I will be back hopefully.

 

[Jim]

I already know you reject the Bible, that says the many shall be condemned for the ONE person's transgression.

However, Arminians believe Adam had free will.

For you to say God caused Adam's free choice, is to misrepresent their beliefs.

God didn't cause Adam's choice. God created man [and angels] with the ability of free will to choose. It is in the free will to choose to either obey or disobey God that evil results.

Absent that free will to choose to disobey, there is no such thing as evil.

 

[Redemption]

Hmmm...this would mean that they rebelled against HIM, HIS glorious majesty, rejecting HIM as their GOD, AFTER having seen the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power in the creation of the universe, Rom 1:20. Remember that old phrase, 'does not compute'??

I think that the serpent was already fallen when the garden was created and first inhabited...he came into the garden with evil intent to seduce Eve.

I suggest that Satan et al fell before seeing the proof of YHWH's divinity and eternal power or he would never have rebelled. But he was a sinner so that as Rom 1:18+ tells us, when he saw the truth he could not escape the grip of his sinfulness.

@TedT

Have you forgotten what was written.

ISAIAH 14: 12-14

12 “How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’

YOU WROTE: I think that the serpent was already fallen when the garden was created and first inhabited...he came into the garden with evil intent to seduce Eve.

I absolutely agree.

YOU WROTE:

I suggest that Satan et al fell before seeing the proof of YHWH's divinity and eternal power or he would never have rebelled.

I could not disagree more because we have been told in Isaiah that Lucifer wasn't to be as God. He wanted to surpass God.He did not need to see any parts of creation for the majesty that God created in heaven, he would know and that is why
he wanted to be above God ....

This explains it nicely and without confusion. https://www.m.bibleresources.info/includes/faq/faq1/qa.php?q_id=1047

The prophet Ezekiel tells us that Lucifer was “the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty” (Ezekiel 28:12). Prior to the creation of Adam, we are told “…the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (Job 38:7). We can only speculate on the length of time that Lucifer enjoyed the fellowship of his heavenly Father, Michael the archangel, and the myriads of angelic beings that dwelt in heaven. Additionally, Ezekiel tells us that after the creation of Adam, Lucifer was “anointed as a guardian cherub” of the Garden of Eden.

However, Lucifer soon became discontent with his position. Pride and personal ambition took root in his heart and mind as he contemplated ruling his own kingdom (Ezekiel 28:14-17). His goal was to transfer man’s allegiance from God to himself. Sadly enough, his love and devotion to God waned, and his overinflated ego consumed him. “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! …You said in your heart I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God…I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:12-14).

God's intelligent creations have been given free will, both in the spirit realm and on earth. Lucifer was the first being ever to sin. Therefore, he could not have learned it by observing others. His sin was generated from his own heart when he allowed pride to enter. After Adam’s disobedience, the death penalty was pronounced and executed upon our race. No doubt Satan’s plans were frustrated. It was not his original intention to rule a race destined for death.

Regarding where Lucifer was when his thoughts turned to sin, the Scriptures are unclear. As the guardian of Eden, his sin may have occurred while on earth as he observed Adam and Eve, or it could have occurred while he was in heaven. The important point is that God dealt with Lucifer’s sin. He fell out of God’s favor and was confined to earth’s atmosphere in “chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day” (Jude 6).

 

[Studyman]

While I tend to agree with the tenor of these thoughts I disagree on specifics...

Fallen refers to the free will decision of someone to rebel against GOD's plans or even against HIMself as our LORD GOD.
I find the answer to why the judgement upon the demonic reprobate was postponed in favor of a prison planet for sinners as per Rev 12:4-9, in Matt 13:27-30 in which GOD tells the angels to postpone the destruction of the demonic reprobate, the weeds, so as to let them live together with the sinful but good seed (the fallen elect) until the harvest.
Iow,

I have come to understand through Study, apart from all the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in, a different understanding of the Parables shown to us in the Holy Scriptures. Paul and Jesus said these Written Words are Spiritual, and that the Kingdom of God, and His Temple is in the mind of men, and our battles are not against flesh and blood, but wickedness in our mind, so I look at Scriptures as God's Armor to protect and prepare my mind for His coming, or my death, which ever comes first.

In this case, God chose to create Eve with the free will ability to obey and rebel, which is "Good" in God's Eyes. Those rebellious thoughts (words from the "other voice") live together with her righteous thoughts (God's Words) in her mind. She is to rule over, battle, destroy the wicked thoughts, "man, woman and child" of them, and choose to "Live By" the Righteous thoughts, "God's Word", in her journey.

Matt. 13: 30, Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Is this life I am living, not "the time of harvest"? Hasn't the Kingdom of God come upon me? Isn't the field that the seeds were cast into, my mind?

This is the same, in my understanding, as the Rock of Israel bringing the Israelites through the wicked nations in the wilderness, but not driving them all out at once, "To prove Israel", as Joshua declares.

Paul speaks to this, in my view.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

How is this not representative of the "other voice" in the mind of Eve?

GOD has chosen to delay the judgment day because, as HE wrote in the parable of the weeds, some of HIS sheep, HIS elect, have gone astray into sin and to call the judgment upon all evil ones would condemn them also against HIS election promise to them of salvation.

When is Judgment day? Is it not the day of our death? And we don't, can't know when this is, therefore, we should always be ready, as it is written.

2 Pet. 3: 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

This is the Whole duty of man, there is nothing more important in this short vapor of what is called our life, than "Yielding ourselves" to God, according to what is written in scriptures.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

He delays judgment for a time, pleading to the inhabitants of this world, "Today, if you Hear MY Voice, harden not your hearts", like you did yesterday.

The parable tells us that we must live with the reprobate weeds. In other words, their influence upon us is good for our sanctification or HE could send them to Venus or Mars to wait for the judgment day with no need to afflict HIS people with their leaven and predacious evil.

You can see the difference in understanding, when a man considers the reprobate weeds are symbolic of men's disobedient or rebellious traditions, influenced by rebellious thoughts. As from the beginning to the end of Scriptures, men are to be judged by their own works, not the works of a collective group of people born of a certain DNA or who adopt a specific religious sect or "voice" of this world God placed them in.

The time of the harvest is the time of the maturity of the wheat and the only maturity that can save anyone from the judgment is a maturity in holiness, a perfect redemption and a full sanctification. Once these sinful elect, (ie, the last sinful elect) comes to a full repentance unto holiness in his heart, the elect sheep will be separated from the reprobate goats and the judgement will follow.

This is certainly a popular worldly philosophy. But if a man believes the Kingdom of God and the Temple of God is in him, the separation from walking after the influence of worldly thoughts, happens during the life of every man. Then HE dies "in hope", like Abraham and David, that the Prophesies of the Holy scriptures, the God who Inspired them, and the instruction in righteousness revealed therein, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works", are true, and our faith is not in vain.

So for me, waiting for the Kingdom of God, and the Judgment of God to come, is foolish and dangerous. Because the Kingdom of God is here now, and the Temple of God is in our mind, "now", and the judgment is taking place, "now".

2 Cor. 9: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is why, in my view, Paul pleads with those who have called Jesus Lord, Lord;

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present" your bodies "a living sacrifice", holy, acceptable unto God, which is "your" reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world (especially it's religions) but be ye transformed by the renewing "of your mind", that "ye may prove" what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This is the Journey of all men who partake of God's Passover, the "beginning" of His Salvation, according to what is written, when Every Word of God is considered, and all "other voices" are not.

 

[101G]

To understand man's creative 'make-up' there are three tenets of our understanding God:

There is only ONE God
There is NONE like Him
He gives His glory to NO ONE.

GINOLJC, to all.
These things 101G know, but you said,

Scripture states God created man and man was created sinful

where is the scripture that states "God created man sinful?". book chapter and verse please.

101G.

 

[Obadiah]

'I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things. '
(Isa 45:7)

Hello @Redemption,

The Subject Heading:- 'Did God create evil?'

The answer to that question is NO: as seen in (reply #62). in relation to Isaiah 45:7, and the words, 'I create evil: The word translated 'evil' there is never ever translated 'sin'. It is contrasted with the word 'peace' in this case, and means 'disturbance'.

'Sin entered into the world, and death by sin' (Rom. 5:12), through man's disobedience to God's known will (Gen. 2:17a).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

The answer to that question is NO...Right on!