Did God Create Evil?

[e v e]

Thank you, brother, for pressing me to clarify. Let me try to put this more clearly:

before anything else, let me say i need to understand how You define kenosis as it's a theology term.

1. “Transfiguration of creation.”
   By this I mean what Paul writes in Romans 8:19–21: “the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” Not annihilation, but transformation. Peter uses the image of fire (2 Pet 3:10–13), but the goal is “new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.” So I see continuity: creation renewed, not discarded. This is what I mean by “the restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21).

if you mean His creation as eden which the evil realm desolated, yes the sons and Christ will rebuild it ...

i will disagree though if you mean this current earth not made by God since this one will not be more than a place for rats and moles

And this connects to the very word “transfiguration.” On the Mount, Jesus was metemorphōthē (Mt 17:2) —transfigured before His disciples. For a brief moment, the veil of His kenosis was lifted, and His divine glory shone through His human form. This anticipates both His resurrection and the destiny of creation itself: matter transfigured, radiant with the glory of God. Thus, I see the “transfiguration of creation” as patterned on Christ’s own transfiguration: what is now subject to decay will one day shine with imperishable glory.

veil of kenosis? do you mean (in its entirety) how he stepped out of his deity and incarnated in this substandard flesh body we have?

that's all kenosis would be for me but don't know how you see it?

1. “Why Christ needed exaltation.”
   Philippians 2:9 is explicit: “Therefore God highly exalted Him and gave Him the Name above every name.” Why? Because the Son embraced kenosis —He emptied Himself, becoming obedient even to death (Phil 2:6–8). His exaltation is the Father’s vindication: granting Him the Name, the throne, the universal acknowledgment. Not because He lacked glory by nature, but because He laid it aside and received it back by inheritance. That is why Hebrews 2:13 places on His lips: “Here am I, and the children God has given Me.”

In this sense, Christ is even called “God” (Heb 1:8; John 20:28) —but by inheritance, for the Father has given Him a Name above every name (Phil 2:9). His divine honor is real and supreme, but always derived, and always for the glory of the Father. Ontologically, however, I hold to what Scripture says without metaphysical additions: “For us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 8:6). Christ reigns truly as God and King, but as Heir, not as the self-existent Source.

do you think christ was not a deity before this earth? I know 2-3 mormons that would agree with that and also their texts (which i read) seem to indicate they have that opinion.
for me, Christ was and is deity though he stepped down from His deity, died to everything He was, for us, to get us Home.

1. “Sharing in heavenly nature.”
   Peter says: “that you may become partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4). Revelation 14 shows the 144,000 as firstfruits, sealed, singing the new song. This does not mean we cease to be creatures, but that by grace we share in God’s life. It is a heavenly mode of existence, “like the angels” (Mt 22:30), without implying ontological equality with God.

i believe the 144k were in eden, and will be restored and were never creatures even for one second. Instead, they stepped right out of our mother the Holy spirit as God's actual sons and daughters. The animal creature nature was not by God.

As for “reconciled in Christ” (Eph 1:10): Paul’s point is not that God’s creation failed, but that sin fractured communion. In Christ, heaven and earth are reunited under one Head. That is why the final vision is not escape from the earth but “the dwelling of God with man” (Rev 21:3).

It was invaded by the evil realm. What do you mean by communion?

which heaven and earth do you mean? If you mean this one I am waiting for God to destroy it...

Thus Eden is not simply recovered but surpassed: what was lost is restored, but elevated higher. This is not weakness in God’s plan but His greatness: turning the serpent’s apparent conquest into a consummation greater than the beginning.

What i understand is that the serpent realm along with adam (as prince of the air) and esau (=sons of ammon) made this sky and earth... so it will be destroyed and eden paradise, Gods creation, restored. This earth being a foreign land.

 

[Milo Flores]

before anything else, let me say i need to understand how You define kenosis as it's a theology term.

if you mean His creation as eden which the evil realm desolated, yes the sons and Christ will rebuild it ...

i will disagree though if you mean this current earth not made by God since this one will not be more than a place for rats and moles

veil of kenosis? do you mean (in its entirety) how he stepped out of his deity and incarnated in this substandard flesh body we have?

that's all kenosis would be for me but don't know how you see it?


do you think christ was not a deity before this earth? I know 2-3 mormons that would agree with that and also their texts (which i read) seem to indicate they have that opinion.
for me, Christ was and is deity though he stepped down from His deity, died to everything He was, for us, to get us Home.


i believe the 144k were in eden, and will be restored and were never creatures even for one second. Instead, they stepped right out of our mother the Holy spirit as God's actual sons and daughters. The animal creature nature was not by God.

It was invaded by the evil realm. What do you mean by communion?

which heaven and earth do you mean? If you mean this one I am waiting for God to destroy it...

What i understand is that the serpent realm along with adam (as prince of the air) and esau (=sons of ammon) made this sky and earth... so it will be destroyed and eden paradise, Gods creation, restored. This earth being a foreign land.

Thank you sister, for inviting me to clarify. Allow me to set out my understanding —not as dogma, but as the reading that seems to me most faithful to Scripture, grammar, and the Fathers.

---

1. Exaltation in Scripture: more than restoration​

Philippians 2:8–9: “He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death—even death on a cross. Therefore [διὸ] God highly exalted Him and granted [ἐχαρίσατο] to Him the Name above every name.”


Key points:

• Kenosis: Christ emptied Himself (Phil 2:7).
• Therefore: His exaltation is cause-and-effect, not automatic return.
• Granted: the verb ἐχαρίσατο (“graciously bestowed”) emphasizes gift, inheritance —not self-possession.

Hebrews 1:4 confirms this: “Having become as much superior to the angels as the Name He has inherited [κεκληρονόμηκεν] is more excellent than theirs.” The exaltation is described explicitly in terms of inheritance.


Thus, Christ’s exaltation is more than restoration of pre-existent glory. It is coronation: He inherits the Name, the throne, the Kingdom.

---

2. The “Name above every name”​

In Greek: τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα —the superlative Name, given by the Father.

• This Name (“Lord” = Kyrios) is the covenant Name applied to Jesus (cf. Isa 45:23 → Phil 2:10–11).
• Yet Paul carefully frames it as gifted: God exalted Him and gave Him the Name.

Conclusion: Christ is confessed as “our God and Lord” (John 20:28; Heb 1:8), but as Heir, not as self-existent Source.

---

3. Analogy: the Viceroy or Functional King​

A helpful analogy: Christ reigns as a viceroy or functional king. His reign is real, universal, supreme—but always by delegation.

• “God has made Him both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36).
• “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me” (Mt 28:18).
• “The Father has given Him to be Head over all things” (Eph 1:22).

Like a viceroy who bears the full royal authority yet derives it from the sovereign, Christ reigns as God-for-us, while the Father remains the one fons deitatis, the ultimate Source.

---

4. Patristic witness before Nicaea​

• Ignatius of Antioch calls Jesus “our God” (Eph. 18.2), yet constantly distinguishes the Father as Source.
• Irenaeus insists the Son is “from the Father” and receives all authority from Him (Adv. Haer. IV.20.1).
• Origen affirms Christ’s pre-existence and divinity but also subordination as the begotten Word.

None of the pre-Nicene Fathers used homoousios as dogma. The Didache itself (late 1st c.) commands baptism in the Name of Father, Son, Spirit —yet without metaphysical formulas. It would be absurd to anathematize them for not using Constantine’s later political terminology.

---

5. Eschatological seal​

Paul is explicit: “Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father… the Son Himself will also be subjected… that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:24–28).


Thus the arc is complete:

• Christ empties Himself (kenosis).
• He is exalted and inherits Name, Kingdom, and people.
• He reigns truly as God-for-us, yet always derived.
• And in the end, He hands all back to the Father.

This is exaltation to something greater than His original state: He becomes our confessed God and Lord, but by inheritance and delegation.

---

6. My conclusion​

I honor Christ as exalted to the highest throne, given the supreme Name, confessed as our God and Lord. But I understand this in the language of Scripture itself: inheritance, bestowal, subjection. He reigns as viceroy —the functional King— representing the ontological King, the Father.


Thus I affirm with Paul: “For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6).


This is no weakness in Christ —it is His kenosis, His filial obedience, His glory. And it is no weakness in God —it is His greatness: turning even the path of death into exaltation, inheritance, and final restoration.

 

[Dizerner]

An explanation of Christ's atonement and original sin would be appropriate to share the real Biblical Gospel.

 

[TedT]

Revelation 12:4–5 is not about Satan flinging away “believing angels,” but about his attempt to devour the Messiah.

Fill your boots but your stance ignores or contradicts Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, hurling them to the earth. One third of the stars cannot represent the Messiah! Do we just pretend thisline is not here??

Also verse 4, ie, indicating a time sequence. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth.
took place after the stars were flung to the earth. Otherwise there is no context!!!

Those Satan flung to the earth were NOT in his army of demons but were sinners or he would have no power over them...so who could they be if not sinful believers?

 

[e v e]

Thank you sister, for inviting me to clarify. Allow me to set out my understanding —not as dogma, but as the reading that seems to me most faithful to Scripture, grammar, and the Fathers.

---

1. Exaltation in Scripture: more than restoration​

Philippians 2:8–9: “He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death—even death on a cross. Therefore [διὸ] God highly exalted Him and granted [ἐχαρίσατο] to Him the Name above every name.”

exaltation. do you meaning becoming a deity?

I agree the sons will only be able to Rule With Christ when restored to their eden Rule, as actual sons of Him led by Christ, receiving His type of nature - God's type Nature.

Christ unlike us never fell and did not lose His deity but set it aside, died to it for us, died on the cross.

No one becomes a deity. That is the satanic jealousy against God wanting to be 'as God.' Stealing from eden and desolating her after the fall.

The 144k are being Restored to their original nature, not becoming a god. They are His own sons and daughters, not creatures.

Key points:

• Kenosis: Christ emptied Himself (Phil 2:7).

emptied is a poor term . Not how God speaks.

• Therefore: His exaltation is cause-and-effect, not automatic return.

this is very unclear ...

• Granted: the verb ἐχαρίσατο (“graciously bestowed”) emphasizes gift, inheritance —not self-possession.

Christ was always His son and needs not inherit anything. Christ is our deity, since before this satanic cosmos was created after the fall.

Hebrews 1:4 confirms this: “Having become as much superior to the angels as the Name He has inherited [κεκληρονόμηκεν] is more excellent than theirs.” The exaltation is described explicitly in terms of inheritance.

Christ did not become.

Thus, Christ’s exaltation is more than restoration of pre-existent glory. It is coronation: He inherits the Name, the throne, the Kingdom.

God, IEUE, remains God. His son remains the Son. For ever. The satanic realm does try to transfer the birthright to themselves. Have for a long time. They have created the fallen reality and the only thing next is that they will be deposed. Removed. Destroyed.

The 144k sons will be restored to Christ, to God, to Eden, to our eden mother, and to each other our eden family.

---

2. The “Name above every name”​

In Greek: τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα —the superlative Name, given by the Father.

• This Name (“Lord” = Kyrios) is the covenant Name applied to Jesus (cf. Isa 45:23 → Phil 2:10–11).
• Yet Paul carefully frames it as gifted: God exalted Him and gave Him the Name.

Exalted is still not defined other than becoming a deity.

Christ doesn't need to become a deity.

Conclusion: Christ is confessed as “our God and Lord” (John 20:28; Heb 1:8), but as Heir, not as self-existent Source.

the Heir term is often used by satan. Footnotes from every ancient text. No transfers.

Christ is God's son. God is God. Nothing changes. No transfer.
Always had been.

God, God's feminine Spirit our mother, and Christ the son, is my Eden family. since for ever.

---

3. Analogy: the Viceroy or Functional King​

A helpful analogy: Christ reigns as a viceroy or functional king. His reign is real, universal, supreme—but always by delegation.

Christ is our deity of eden. This means of the Nature of God, with God's signature, God's Nature. God is God His father. His mother God's Holy Spirit, is deity. They all share eden nature = deity, God's nature . Christ and God's Spirit are God's Hands, His servants.

First commandment. God is God. The birthright remains with Christ and eden, and will be restored to the 144k sons who rule with Christ the fall undone. Christ and the sons will restore eden.

---

4. Patristic witness before Nicaea​

• Ignatius of Antioch calls Jesus “our God” (Eph. 18.2), yet constantly distinguishes the Father as Source.
• Irenaeus insists the Son is “from the Father” and receives all authority from Him (Adv. Haer. IV.20.1).

Irenaeus understood the real trinity concept God, His feminine spirit and the sons and daughters led by Christ His son . Christ and God's Feminine spirit have His nature and are deity, yet beings. even if we cannot understand how that is. Christ isn't merely an exalted man. ( no i was never a mormon, never a jw etc)

This is my eden family. The 144k sons and daughters being actual sons and daughters not animal adoptions, which is the satanic version. yes, esau are the ones God hates and are adam's adopted evil sons of ammon. corrupt souls.

• Origen affirms Christ’s pre-existence and divinity but also subordination as the begotten Word.

awful origen guy.

None of the pre-Nicene Fathers used homoousios as dogma. The Didache itself (late 1st c.) commands baptism in the Name of Father, Son, Spirit —yet without metaphysical formulas. It would be absurd to anathematize them for not using Constantine’s later political terminology.

constantine yuck and double yuck. baptism is a satanic baal fish religion practice inserted into the new testament.

---

5. Eschatological seal​

Paul is explicit: “Then comes the end, when He delivers the Kingdom to God the Father… the Son Himself will also be subjected… that God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:24–28).

God there is corrupted in the corrupt text which is the sealed vision. Meant there is adam who intends never to free us. adam is literally an abomination.

Thus the arc is complete:

• Christ empties Himself (kenosis).
• He is exalted and inherits Name, Kingdom, and people.
• He reigns truly as God-for-us, yet always derived.
• And in the end, He hands all back to the Father.

this sounds like the mormon end times. trick would to give adam control.

This is exaltation to something greater than His original state: He becomes our confessed God and Lord, but by inheritance and delegation.

nope. there is no such process. Christ does not attain godhood.

---

6. My conclusion​

I honor Christ as exalted to the highest throne, given the supreme Name, confessed as our God and Lord. But I understand this in the language of Scripture itself: inheritance, bestowal, subjection. He reigns as viceroy —the functional King— representing the ontological King, the Father.

it is the language of adam god of this corrupt not approved of by God reality we are in.

God never uses this language or words .

Thus I affirm with Paul: “For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things” (1 Cor 8:6).

Lord there just means evil adam. Not Christ.

This is no weakness in Christ —it is His kenosis, His filial obedience, His glory. And it is no weakness in God —it is His greatness: turning even the path of death into exaltation, inheritance, and final restoration.

Exaltation and inheritance are clue terms , that this is just more theology where satan steals from eden.

 

[e v e]

Christ does not 'become a deity'

 

[e v e]

I know the mormons believe adam created this world. true, he evilly did. but they (most) do not know that adam works for the satanic realm.

 

[Dizerner]

Please see the correct Biblical understanding of Christ and the Gospel here instead of this Gnostic stuff:

Thread 'My understanding of the Gospel—summarized'

Jul 23, 2023

The thing about the Gospel is you can keep going in more depth and detail, and it could take an entire book easily. If I were to describe the Gospel as a set of facts, I could make this list. But remember this is not mere information—this comes as spiritual revelation on a higher plane directly from the Spirit of God. This is a miraculous experience and revelation, not just believing in information.

1. There is a spiritual realm and not just a physical realm, with a Creator and evil and good spirits. Evil spirits were created good and rebelled sometime in the past.

2. Our ancestors...

• Dizerner
• Replies: 33
• Forum: Soteriology- The Doctrine of Salvation

• 

 

[101G]

adam was the one in charge.
Adam did not die... he is the prince of this world.

That false detail was added
to the scroll.

What do You mean by one?

yes, Adam was in charge, but it was eve who first disobeyed, then Adam. and Adam both died in the "DAY" that they ate. he was the prince of this world..... until he died.

by "one" in marriage, Genesis 2:21 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;" Genesis 2:22 "And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:23 "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

101G.

 

[101G]

I agree with 101G: Genesis itself portrays Eve’s act as a real choice. She knew God’s word (’amar, “said”), she heard the serpent’s contradiction (lo mot tamutun, “you shall not surely die”), and then she saw, desired, and took (εἶδεν… ἐπεθύμησεν… ἔλαβεν). The verbs underline deliberation, not coercion.


And Adam also chose: “and he ate” (Gen 3:6). Both stand equally responsible. The drama of Eden is not “man against woman,” but humanity against God’s word.


In fact, the very first gender tension arises not from God but from Adam’s excuse: “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit, and I ate” (Gen 3:12). Sin immediately distorted relationships, turning partnership into blame. That was the start of conflict between the sexes —a result of the fall, not of creation.


That is why Genesis 3 must be read as a tragedy of misplaced trust. They both chose wrongly; they both suffered the consequence. And Christ, the second Adam, restores by using His freedom for obedience in kenosis (Phil 2:6–7).

100% agree. good Analogy ....

101G

 

[Milo Flores]

exaltation. do you meaning becoming a deity?

I agree the sons will only be able to Rule With Christ when restored to their eden Rule, as actual sons of Him led by Christ, receiving His type of nature - God's type Nature.

Christ unlike us never fell and did not lose His deity but set it aside, died to it for us, died on the cross.

No one becomes a deity. That is the satanic jealousy against God wanting to be 'as God.' Stealing from eden and desolating her after the fall.

The 144k are being Restored to their original nature, not becoming a god. They are His own sons and daughters, not creatures.

emptied is a poor term . Not how God speaks.

this is very unclear ...

Christ was always His son and needs not inherit anything. Christ is our deity, since before this satanic cosmos was created after the fall.


Christ did not become.


God, IEUE, remains God. His son remains the Son. For ever. The satanic realm does try to transfer the birthright to themselves. Have for a long time. They have created the fallen reality and the only thing next is that they will be deposed. Removed. Destroyed.

The 144k sons will be restored to Christ, to God, to Eden, to our eden mother, and to each other our eden family.

Exalted is still not defined other than becoming a deity.

Christ doesn't need to become a deity.



the Heir term is often used by satan. Footnotes from every ancient text. No transfers.

Christ is God's son. God is God. Nothing changes. No transfer.
Always had been.

God, God's feminine Spirit our mother, and Christ the son, is my Eden family. since for ever.


Christ is our deity of eden. This means of the Nature of God, with God's signature, God's Nature. God is God His father. His mother God's Holy Spirit, is deity. They all share eden nature = deity, God's nature . Christ and God's Spirit are God's Hands, His servants.

First commandment. God is God. The birthright remains with Christ and eden, and will be restored to the 144k sons who rule with Christ the fall undone. Christ and the sons will restore eden.


Irenaeus understood the real trinity concept God, His feminine spirit and the sons and daughters led by Christ His son . Christ and God's Feminine spirit have His nature and are deity, yet beings. even if we cannot understand how that is. Christ isn't merely an exalted man. ( no i was never a mormon, never a jw etc)

This is my eden family. The 144k sons and daughters being actual sons and daughters not animal adoptions, which is the satanic version. yes, esau are the ones God hates and are adam's adopted evil sons of ammon. corrupt souls.

awful origen guy.


constantine yuck and double yuck. baptism is a satanic baal fish religion practice inserted into the new testament.


God there is corrupted in the corrupt text which is the sealed vision. Meant there is adam who intends never to free us. adam is literally an abomination.


this sounds like the mormon end times. trick would to give adam control.

nope. there is no such process. Christ does not attain godhood.

it is the language of adam god of this corrupt not approved of by God reality we are in.

God never uses this language or words .

Lord there just means evil adam. Not Christ.

Exaltation and inheritance are clue terms , that this is just more theology where satan steals from eden.

Exaltation, Kenosis, and the Wisdom of Nothingness​

Dear sister, thank you for inviting me to clarify. I do not speak from human dogma, but seeking to be faithful to Scripture, to the Greek and Hebrew originals, to the divine pedagogy, and to the witness of the early Fathers.

---

1. The Exaltation of Christ: Coronation, not Deification​

Philippians 2:8–9: “He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death—even death on a cross. Therefore God highly exalted Him and gave Him the Name above every name.”

• Christ did not “become God” at that moment, for “the Word was God” from the beginning (John 1:1).
• Exaltation is the Father’s act of crowning the incarnate Son as King over humanity, after His trial of obedience on the cross.
• It is not a change of ontology but of function: Christ now reigns as visible Lord of history, fulfilling His millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4–6).

What He inherits is not deity, but the messianic role over the nations, in line with Psalm 2: “Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance.”

---

2. Kenosis: Renunciation of Prerogatives, not Loss of Deity​

The Greek ekenōsen (Phil 2:7) means “to empty, to strip, to renounce.”

• Christ did not lose His deity (Col 2:9: “In Him dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily”).
• He set aside prerogatives: He chose not to exercise His divine rights but to live in humility.
• His kenosis is pedagogical: teaching us that victory over sin and ego comes through surrender, not self-exaltation.

As Lucifer fell by inflating himself (“I will ascend…I will be like the Most High,” Isa 14:13–14), Christ triumphed by emptying Himself.

---

3. The Name Above Every Name​

In Philippians 2:11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23: “Before me every knee will bow.”

• The “Name” (Kyrios = YHWH in the Septuagint) was not something Christ lacked, but now a public title of universal authority.
• Humanity confesses what was eternally true: “Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

This is not a change in deity but a manifestation of His kingship before the nations.

---

4. Inheritance: Authentic Biblical Language​

Some despise the language of “inheritance,” but Scripture itself uses it:

• “Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance.” (Ps 2:8)
• “Whom He appointed heir of all things.” (Heb 1:2)
• “Having inherited a more excellent Name than they.” (Heb 1:4)

The problem is not inheritance but satanic usurpation. Satan copies God’s language, but in Christ inheritance is legitimate, the fruit of filial obedience.

---

5. Socrates and the Wisdom of Nothingness​

Remarkably, even a pagan philosopher like Socrates grasped something fundamental:

• “All I know is that I know nothing.”
• “I am nothing.”

Without Scripture, by pure reason, he intuited that man is ignorance and emptiness before truth.


The Bible confirms this:

• “Man is like a breath; his days are like a passing shadow.” (Ps 144:4)
• “We have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.” (2 Cor 4:7)
• “When I am weak, then I am strong.” (2 Cor 12:10)

Romans 2:14–15 teaches that the nations have “the work of the Law written on their hearts.” Socrates is an example of that natural wisdom inscribed by God.


The difference: Socrates intuited it, Christ embodied it. The philosopher said, “I am nothing”; the Son, being God, made Himself nothing to save us.

---

6. The Pre-Nicene Fathers​

The earliest Fathers confirm this vision:

• Ignatius of Antioch (Eph. 18.2): calls Christ “our God” yet distinguishes the Father as Source.
• Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 61): confesses the preexistent Logos, subordinate to the Father yet worshiped.
• Irenaeus (Against Heresies IV.20.1): insists all things come from the Father, and Christ receives authority.
• Tertullian (Against Praxeas 2): speaks of “three persons, one substance,” yet maintains the Father as Head.
• Origen (On First Principles II.9): distinguishes between physical evil (permitted) and moral evil (from free will), and affirms the Son as begotten, subordinate to the Father.

None of them used homoousios as dogma. Yet all confessed the Son as divine, preexistent, functionally subordinate, and exalted by the Father.

---

7. The Eschatological Consummation​

1 Corinthians 15:24–28 describes the end: the Son delivers the Kingdom to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

• This is not loss of glory but consummation of His mission.
• As the perfect viceroy, He hands back everything to the ultimate King.

Kenosis comes full circle: He emptied Himself on the cross, and in the end He empties Himself again by handing the Kingdom to the Father.

---

Conclusion: The Pedagogy of Kenosis​

• Christ did not become God: He already was.
• Christ did not lose His being: He renounced prerogatives.
• Christ did not usurp anything: He inherited what the Father gave Him.
• Christ did not exalt His ego like Lucifer: He emptied Himself unto death.
• And at the end, He delivers all to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

Scripture is not grasped by intellect alone but by looking at the Crucified. Socrates, by reason, intuited that we are nothing; the Bible confirms it; and Christ brought it to fullness: being God, He made Himself nothing, so that our nothingness might be filled with His everything.


“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus…” (Phil 2:5)

 

[TedT]

• Origen affirms Christ’s pre-existence and divinity but also subordination as the begotten Word.

Origen also affirms the pre-conception existence (pce) of humans. I use pce rather than pre-existence as nothing can exist before it exits, it is a misnomer.

 

[e v e]

Exaltation, Kenosis, and the Wisdom of Nothingness​

Dear sister, thank you for inviting me to clarify. I do not speak from human dogma, but seeking to be faithful to Scripture, to the Greek and Hebrew originals, to the divine pedagogy, and to the witness of the early Fathers.

---

1. The Exaltation of Christ: Coronation, not Deification​

Philippians 2:8–9: “He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death—even death on a cross. Therefore God highly exalted Him and gave Him the Name above every name.”

• Christ did not “become God” at that moment, for “the Word was God” from the beginning (John 1:1).
• Exaltation is the Father’s act of crowning the incarnate Son as King over humanity, after His trial of obedience on the cross.
• It is not a change of ontology but of function: Christ now reigns as visible Lord of history, fulfilling His millennial kingdom (Rev 20:4–6).

What He inherits is not deity, but the messianic role over the nations, in line with Psalm 2: “Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance.”

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2. Kenosis: Renunciation of Prerogatives, not Loss of Deity​

The Greek ekenōsen (Phil 2:7) means “to empty, to strip, to renounce.”

• Christ did not lose His deity (Col 2:9: “In Him dwells all the fullness of Deity bodily”).
• He set aside prerogatives: He chose not to exercise His divine rights but to live in humility.
• His kenosis is pedagogical: teaching us that victory over sin and ego comes through surrender, not self-exaltation.

As Lucifer fell by inflating himself (“I will ascend…I will be like the Most High,” Isa 14:13–14), Christ triumphed by emptying Himself.

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3. The Name Above Every Name​

In Philippians 2:11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23: “Before me every knee will bow.”

• The “Name” (Kyrios = YHWH in the Septuagint) was not something Christ lacked, but now a public title of universal authority.
• Humanity confesses what was eternally true: “Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

This is not a change in deity but a manifestation of His kingship before the nations.

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4. Inheritance: Authentic Biblical Language​

Some despise the language of “inheritance,” but Scripture itself uses it:

• “Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance.” (Ps 2:8)
• “Whom He appointed heir of all things.” (Heb 1:2)
• “Having inherited a more excellent Name than they.” (Heb 1:4)

The problem is not inheritance but satanic usurpation. Satan copies God’s language, but in Christ inheritance is legitimate, the fruit of filial obedience.

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5. Socrates and the Wisdom of Nothingness​

Remarkably, even a pagan philosopher like Socrates grasped something fundamental:

• “All I know is that I know nothing.”
• “I am nothing.”

Without Scripture, by pure reason, he intuited that man is ignorance and emptiness before truth.


The Bible confirms this:

• “Man is like a breath; his days are like a passing shadow.” (Ps 144:4)
• “We have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.” (2 Cor 4:7)
• “When I am weak, then I am strong.” (2 Cor 12:10)

Romans 2:14–15 teaches that the nations have “the work of the Law written on their hearts.” Socrates is an example of that natural wisdom inscribed by God.


The difference: Socrates intuited it, Christ embodied it. The philosopher said, “I am nothing”; the Son, being God, made Himself nothing to save us.

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6. The Pre-Nicene Fathers​

The earliest Fathers confirm this vision:

• Ignatius of Antioch (Eph. 18.2): calls Christ “our God” yet distinguishes the Father as Source.
• Justin Martyr (Dialogue with Trypho 61): confesses the preexistent Logos, subordinate to the Father yet worshiped.
• Irenaeus (Against Heresies IV.20.1): insists all things come from the Father, and Christ receives authority.
• Tertullian (Against Praxeas 2): speaks of “three persons, one substance,” yet maintains the Father as Head.
• Origen (On First Principles II.9): distinguishes between physical evil (permitted) and moral evil (from free will), and affirms the Son as begotten, subordinate to the Father.

None of them used homoousios as dogma. Yet all confessed the Son as divine, preexistent, functionally subordinate, and exalted by the Father.

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7. The Eschatological Consummation​

1 Corinthians 15:24–28 describes the end: the Son delivers the Kingdom to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

• This is not loss of glory but consummation of His mission.
• As the perfect viceroy, He hands back everything to the ultimate King.

Kenosis comes full circle: He emptied Himself on the cross, and in the end He empties Himself again by handing the Kingdom to the Father.

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Conclusion: The Pedagogy of Kenosis​

• Christ did not become God: He already was.
• Christ did not lose His being: He renounced prerogatives.
• Christ did not usurp anything: He inherited what the Father gave Him.
• Christ did not exalt His ego like Lucifer: He emptied Himself unto death.
• And at the end, He delivers all to the Father, so that God may be all in all.

Scripture is not grasped by intellect alone but by looking at the Crucified. Socrates, by reason, intuited that we are nothing; the Bible confirms it; and Christ brought it to fullness: being God, He made Himself nothing, so that our nothingness might be filled with His everything.


“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus…” (Phil 2:5)

1. Was the entire purpose of the long above pamphlet to prove Christ is not deity ? That's how it comes off.

2. originally i replied point by point but I see the only point was to demote Christ into the leader of the demon nations (term nation always means demon nations!), as some sort of mere man becoming a god concept, and to equate christianity with buddhist nothingness and pythagorean plato, both downgrades of what Christ came here to do.

3. Both points are mistakes.