Yes, sinfulness proves our free will as it cannot arise from the will of GOD.
Did God Create Evil?
- Thread starter Foster
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I understand this is your belief, and you are free to adopt it. But the implication that God didn't create the serpent, or know the serpent was in the garden, or that Eve was going to listen to it and fall, and that that fall would inspire thousands and thousands of others throughout history, to turn to God in hope, is a bridge to far for me.
It is the will of God that we have the choice, it is the desire of God that we choose Him. At least according to what is written in scriptures.
Selah
Active Member
Amen, brother.
Since it is written that GOD wants all to be saved so as to keep hell empty, it is obvious to me that HE would use HIS omniscience to know who would be damned so that then all HE would have to do to keep hell empty for all time would have been to NOT CREATE those whom HE KNEW WOULD END IN HELL!!
Since this did not work out like that, I think we have to consider a rethink of the attribute of omniscience...
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The idea that HIS omniscience is from eternity to eternity covering everything in existence is a pagan Greek philosophical idea that crept into the Church even though it supported the blasphemy that GOD knew who would go to perdition before HE created them but created them anyway.
Much better is the Biblical definition:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees but NOT all of everything…
GOD knows with a full and complete knowledge everything HE decrees to exist or to happen, that is, all HIS works. GOD also knows that which HE has not decreed to exist or to happen as possibilities, fully and with complete knowledge.
Pre-Conception Existence Theology contends that GOD, by sovereign decree, created all of us with the ability to make true free will decisions, but HE did NOT decree the results of those choices so "HE knew what we would choose perfectly only as possibilities.
So, I contend that GOD's omniscience covers:
1. all of reality; that is, all that HE ever decreed to be created, that is, all HIS works.
2. all of possibility; that is every possible permutation of the nature of the future was known to HIM.
So, I claim HIS omniscience is full and complete.
BUT I also contend that by HIS sovereignty, HE did not decree which possibility any of the spirits created in HIS image would choose, leaving that decision up to their own choice based upon their faith, their unproven hope for their happiness, Heb 11: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ie unproven.
Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves.
Does anyone argue that GOD cannot not decree which possibility will be chosen by a created person? GOD's will is sovereign and IF He does not decree which possibility will be chosen that is HIS will and it is righteous.
Therefore, in this manner, HE did not create (predestinate) the destiny of anyone before their creation nor before their decision to accept HIM or to reject HIM as GOD, and the fate HE did predestined them to was in perfect accord with their own true free will decision, made by faith, ie, their unproven hope, Heb 11:1.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else,
There is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:5–7.
evil: [Strong's #7451] רַע raʿ from [#7489] (ra`a`); bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):
English Words used in KJV:
evil 442 times
wickedness 59 times
wicked 25
mischief 21
hurt 20
bad 13
trouble 10
sore 9
affliction 6
ill 5
adversity 4
favoured 3
harm 3
naught 3
noisome 2
grievous 2
sad 2
The problem is that you take this word "evil" and change its meaning according to Westcott & Hort's corrupt Revised Version (1881) which used corrupt texts to make a supposed "revision" of the King James Version which was not a revision of the KJV but a totally new translation using older, corrupt, unused manuscripts that were found in the Vatican and in a trash can at the foot of Mount Sinai (Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (א).)
There's enough information - even from Westcott's wife and son, that these two men were closet Catholics who practiced "Mariology" (the worshiping of Mary, etc.) Both W&H and the committee they gathered for this purpose used Greek texts that were older than the texts from which the KJV was translated, these texts were not even used by the Church of the 4th century. Their Revision did accomplish one thing and that was it created confusion among the Church when it was published (1881) and has since done great damage to the Church since its publication.
John William Burgon (1813–1888) was a prominent English Anglican divine who became the Dean of Chichester Cathedral in 1876. He is best known in the realm of biblical studies for being a fierce and vocal opponent of the textual critical methodology and resulting Greek New Testament text produced by Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort.
Here are some key aspects of John William Burgon and his views:
Staunch Defender of the Traditional Text (Textus Receptus): Burgon was a passionate advocate for the Textus Receptus (the Greek text underlying the King James Version). He believed that God had providentially preserved the New Testament text through the vast majority of manuscripts, which largely represented the Byzantine text-type.
"The Revision Revised": His most famous work in textual criticism is "The Revision Revised" (1881), (<--- excellent study) where he launched a detailed and often polemical attack on Westcott and Hort's Greek text and the Revised Version (RV) that was based on it. He argued against the principles used by the revisers, asserting that they had adopted an unsound textual theory.
Emphasis on Quantity and Ecclesiastical Testimony: Burgon believed that the sheer number of manuscripts supporting the Traditional Text, combined with its consistent use and acceptance throughout church history, provided stronger evidence for its authenticity than the age of a few, supposedly "corrupt" manuscripts.
High View of Scriptural Inerrancy: His textual views were deeply rooted in his high view of biblical inspiration and inerrancy. He believed that if God inspired the original words, He would also providentially preserve them across the vast majority of manuscript copies.
Mostly all of modern-day, new-age English translations used Westcott and Hort's Greek Revision thus adding to an already confused body of believers, many who do not know the history of what W&H did to damage the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ since the publication of their corrupt Greek revision.
The enemy has accomplished much harm as a result of this unauthorized attempt at making a better English translation. The KJV celebrated 400 years of blessed use by believers in 2011.
Too bad you have been terribly influenced by Westcott & Hort and the damage they've caused the Church body of believers today.
Nowhere in the KJV is the Hebrew word translated as "calamity." The word means as written: EVIL. Morally. And Isaiah states God created evil, and this was brought into existence when God created man (and angel.)
There is only ONE God
There is NONE like Him
He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Holding to these three tenets of the Person of God everything in creation falls short of His glory. There is no way God copied, reduplicated, gave, or shared any aspect of His Nature and Deific Attributes in created man or in created material.
Selah
Active Member
So you’re basically saying that God’s nature is evil since He created evil? You’re not making any sense at all because God is holy. And in Genesis 1:31, it is written: And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, [it was] very good.
s e l a h
Last edited:
Why all this "Hoopla"? It should be very simple to understand in light of such scriptures as:
By the very fact God purposed to create, then in this sense alone, he created evil, because God "only" has the glorious attribute of immutability, what ever He created, whether angels, or man, could not be created with this infinite attribute that only the Highest does and can possess. He did not create evil to enjoy it, or see others whom he would create to suffer because of evil/sin/wickedness.
Redemption
Active Member
Just a thought leading to my question. I could well be wrong, but is stuck in my head. And also setting aside that the KJV plus a scant few others are the only ones using evil....
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
The word means as written: EVIL. Morally. And Isaiah states God created evil, and this was brought into existence when God created man (and angel.)
Could this possibly mean that within the creation of man, this was incorporated within his free will? Lucifer was created and rebelled. So did 1/3 of the angels who chose to follow him. It is obvious they had free will... So???
Also... It is understood it was God speaking in Isiah 45:7.
As well as Isiah's vision of God in Chapter 6.
Jesus has said that John 6:46, it states "no one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
So how is it that Isiah had such a vivid vision.
If it was not real, then what is written is not true. But the detail would lead one to believe he did see... and so
could this not have been the 2nd person in the Godhead? Who also has the proper title of God?
I do not believe it was a Theophany. As Baker defines theophany...As the Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible states it, “The use of the term theophany is restricted here to manifestations of God in temporary forms perceptible to the external senses, and thereby excludes divine manifestations in dreams or visions…”
Obviously something happened for him to be given such specific knowledge... I just am curious as to how.
Blessings
civic
Active Member
the serpent and the rest os all the angels were created good just like man was created good with the ability to choose to obey and serve God or not. The 2nd voice you are talking about occured after the fall, after choosing to rebel against God and be tossed out of heaven with the rest of those angels who rebelled against God.
civic
Active Member
Those Thephanies/Christophanies were the appearence of the Pre Incarnate Son who was also called many times "The Angel of the Lord " and identified as YHWH.
Redemption
Active Member
You think Lucifers rebellion came after the fall?
Here is one to consider, though I cannot prove it at all, for years now I have believed the creation and entirety of God's plan
came about because of Lucifer's rebellion.... Just my thoughts.
Carry on.
civic
Active Member
no its the original fall but occured after the creation week.
Affinity
Active Member
Isaiah 45:7 presents a declaration of God’s sovereignty over all aspects of creation, including light and darkness, peace and calamity. While the verse acknowledges God’s control over calamity, it does not imply that God is the author of moral evil. The word "evil" in this context refers to suffering, not sin. Like wanderings in the desert for 40 years when it was an 11 day journey to the promised land.
Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil? | GotQuestions.org
Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil? Did God create evil? What is the interpretation of Isaiah 45:7?
www.gotquestions.org
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The word "good" in the creative narrative has no reference to "good" (or evil) as a moral quality. It is a word that merely means "good enough" or "to specification." We say the same thing daily in our lives. One example is after we cook a meal and after tasting it, we exclaim it is "good" or came out "good" (to specification as the recipe instructed.) God created man and He was pleased with the result. It was to His particular "specification."
In all these things you and others cannot grasp the one main question: "How can a Righteous, Holy God create and unrighteous, unholy being?" This would impugn upon God's Righteousness. The answer is found in at least one place:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.
This is the same dynamic as when the high priest must go through a cleansing ritual in preparation to enter the holy of holies and the direct Presence of God. In other words, before God created anything there was a "ritual" performed in eternity in the heavenly Tabernacle which allowed God to proceed in creating an unrighteous, sinful man: Adam. An Indepth study of what took place in eternity before creation also addressed other factors that accompanied man's creation that are mentioned in Scripture.
Christ/Word, the God-man was prepared and ordained as sacrifice:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:20.
The suffering of the Christ/Word ordained as a man and part of the "sinful/sin" offering equation:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrew 9:26.
A people were chosen for redemption/salvation:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4.
A kingdom was prepared for this chosen, elect people:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34.
The sacred deaths of all God's prophets chosen, ordained, and called:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luke 11:50.
The other "secret" things known only to God (except those things revealed to us His people-Deut. 29:29):
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13:35.
The Ministry of the Holy Spirit in salvation:
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3.
The motivation of love between Father and Son in the Plan of Man:
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24.
The enemy (sin-that which steals, kills, and destroys) that was necessary to be defeated and overcome:
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17: 8.
And, Christ as "book of Life" Personified and a people saved and hid (in Christ) from direct Presence of God:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.
As Mediator/Intercessor, Christ/Word represents the elect to God and God to the elect. God is of purer eyes than to look upon sinful-atoned man even in a glorified state for eternity. This is why we are "hid in Christ" from God's direct sight. When God sees "us" He sees us through the finished Work of the Son. Only.
Again, you refuse to even address the point of my post, choosing instead to preach down to me.
But if you were interested in an actual discussion of the Holy Scriptures, I would ask, "Wasn't Eve created perfect", after the image of God? And didn't God create the "other voice" in the garden? And wasn't that garden symbolic of Eve's mind. I would contend that the other voice existed the moment God said "Thou shall not". And this voice waited until she was away from her "head" to make itself known. This voice exists in the minds of every child I have ever seen. It existed in Cain and Abel, and Cain was instructed to "Rule over it", as we all are. And didn't God know Eve would listen to this voice before HE even created the garden? And what was the purpose of that? To destroy her? To facilitate to fall of mankind?
Or is it to teach men who seek Him, how incredibly dangerous it is to have free will, even as a mortal human. Not only because of the effect it can have on us, but even more importantly the effect it can have on others. How much more then, for an immortal being with the power of God. And HE isn't going to let someone who, with their free will, refuse to follow even the simplest and most basic instructions from their Creator, like what to eat or what to drink, or who to be covered with, into His Kingdom. Perhaps God is teaching His people through examples, which is how HE teaches His People, the importance of submitting to the instructions of the God who created you, even instructions the religions of this world despise, and the voice in your mind tells you to discard. Are these not the battles His people engage in daily? Is this not the fight Eve should have engaged in. "against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Her Mind?)
And why is it so difficult to have this discussion, especially with the promoters of this world's religious system?
Anyway, there is so much of the Gospel of Christ revealed in the first 3 chapters of the Holy Scriptures, it's sad really, that the promoters of this world's religions are more interested in justify their religion, than seeking God's Truth.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
There is no free will in man or angel. Everything is ordained as creation was ordained to 'function' being created.
Not even God has free will in the same sense as man, that is, God has only ONE will: Good. The statement of:
22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Genesis 3:22.
is a misnomer. God does not "know" (experimentally) "evil."
The "sin nature" of man came into existence by virtue of his being created. Man sinned because he is a sinner; he is not a sinner because he sinned. The first upholds the Doctrine of Imputation; the other does not.
civic
Active Member
it's sad really, that you are one of the promoters of this world's religions and you are more interested in justify your own religion, than seeking God's Truth.
101G
Active Member
where is that scripture in the bible?
God create, not created evil. Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." 101G see no ed at the end of create. meaning that he is the Author of Evil. just as the mistake many think that the devil is sin, no he's only evil.
and just because something or some one is "EVIL" do not necessary means that they are SIN. both Good and Evil have their place in God economy of life. 101G suggest many need to study this scripture closely, Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
101G.
Redemption
Active Member
So God chose Lucifer to rebel? And 1/3 of the angels, allegedly.
Could be. It certainly has played nicely into God's plans that he made for this creation we live in.
Also backs up well in Is 45:7 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Bravo. This was a thought I never had. You done well.
