Comparing Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism

civic said:
If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as calvinists falsely claim, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

See the oxymorons with such a the calvinists systematic and presuppositions ?

Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

the Calvinist Barnes below .

Who hold the truth - Who "keep back," or "restrain" the truth. The word translated "hold" here, sometimes means to "maintain," to "keep," to "observe" 1 Corinthians 7:30; 2 Corinthians 6:12; but it also means to "hold back, to detain, to hinder." Luke 4:42, "the people sought him (Jesus), and came to him, and stayed him." (Greek, the same as here.) Plm 1:13, "whom I would have "retained" with me," etc.; 2 Thessalonians 2:6, "and now ye know what "withholdeth," etc. In this place it means also that they held back, or restrained the truth, by their wickedness.

The truth - The truth of God, in whatever way made known, and particularly, as the apostle goes on to say, what is made known by the light of nature. The truth pertaining to his perfections, his Law, etc. They hold it back. or restrain its influence

hope this helps !!!
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Romans 3 no one understands, no one seeks after God. Addresses ability.

John 6 "no one can come to me", addresses ability.

Depends on what you mean by "knowing" the truth. Atheists know the truth. The devils believe and tremble.
 
praise_yeshua said:
So death doesn't motivate a person to seek God? Is death natural?

I wish I could have a five minute conversation with you. You're abandon this malarky you're spreading. It stinks. It only benefits YOU.
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You don't know how to have a civil conversation. Not interested.
 
Presby02 said:
Natural ability not the moral ability. Man is a morally fallen creature. Hence, "no one understands, no one seeks after God."
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What about Noah? He was described in the Old Testament as being righteous.

What about what Lot? (For that righteous man (Lot) dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

What about Abel? By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Noah, Daniel, and Job were said by God to have “righteousness” (Heb: “tsdaqah“) (Ezek 14:14,20). Similarly, in the New Testament, in (Heb 11:32-33), Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, and the prophets are said to have “wrought righteousness” (NASB: “performed acts of righteousness”) (Gr: “dikaiosune“). In (Heb 7:1-2), we see that the name Melchizedek (from Gen 14:18-20) means “King of righteousness.”
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures
 
Presby02 said:
Romans 3 no one understands, no one seeks after God. Addresses ability.

John 6 "no one can come to me", addresses ability.

Depends on what you mean by "knowing" the truth. Atheists know the truth. The devils believe and tremble.
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Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;

Pay attention to the words you're using. Notice HOW.... "THEY HAVE GONE OUT OF THE WAY".....

Which means they were once in the way.......

God made mankind to seek Him. They WENT OUT OF THE WAY to the point they no longer sought GOD......

This does not equal what you claim it means.
 
Redeemed said:
What about Noah? He was described in the Old Testament as being righteous.

What about what Lot? (For that righteous man (Lot) dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

What about Abel? By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Noah, Daniel, and Job were said by God to have “righteousness” (Heb: “tsdaqah“) (Ezek 14:14,20). Similarly, in the New Testament, in (Heb 11:32-33), Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, and the prophets are said to have “wrought righteousness” (NASB: “performed acts of righteousness”) (Gr: “dikaiosune“). In (Heb 7:1-2), we see that the name Melchizedek (from Gen 14:18-20) means “King of righteousness.”
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures
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Exactly!
 
Redeemed said:
What about Noah? He was described in the Old Testament as being righteous.

What about what Lot? (For that righteous man (Lot) dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

What about Abel? By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Noah, Daniel, and Job were said by God to have “righteousness” (Heb: “tsdaqah“) (Ezek 14:14,20). Similarly, in the New Testament, in (Heb 11:32-33), Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, and the prophets are said to have “wrought righteousness” (NASB: “performed acts of righteousness”) (Gr: “dikaiosune“). In (Heb 7:1-2), we see that the name Melchizedek (from Gen 14:18-20) means “King of righteousness.”
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures
Click to expand...
What about them? Were they righteous before God or man?
 
praise_yeshua said:
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;

Pay attention to the words you're using. Notice HOW.... "THEY HAVE GONE OUT OF THE WAY".....

Which means they were once in the way.......

God made mankind to seek Him. They WENT OUT OF THE WAY to the point they no longer sought GOD......

This does not equal what you claim it means.
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Yet verse 10 says no one understands or seeks Him.
 
Presby02 said:
Because they can read?

No one said He did.

Good talk
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So exactly what is your claim here? The Gospel actually condemns humanity. "Have they not heard"?

If they can understand the Gospel and yet deny it. Then you're doing nothing more than defeating your own argument.
 
Presby02 said:
What about them? Were they righteous before God or man?
Click to expand...
Rebuttal to your post which was worthy of rebuttal. Count it all joy. 😁
Natural ability not the moral ability. Man is a morally fallen creature. Hence, "no one understands, no one seeks after God."
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In the days of Noah he did not seem to the general population to be righteous with God, he seemed like a fool. The good news is God uses the foolish things of the world confound the wise. So when it started raining which had never happened before All the people that mocked Noah were confounded.

I would much rather be counted righteous before God then man any day.
 
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Presby02 said:
Naturally they can, morally they cannot because they don't want to.
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I posted verses showing they did

additionally

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
 
Presby02 said:
Naturally they can, morally they cannot because they don't want to.
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Yes they can as God can make a way for there seems to be no way. You live on that cold-hearted world and get beat up enough you just might find yourself wanting salvation. And that can only be found in Jesus Christ. I did Street Ministry for 20 years and I've seen countless hardcore thugs that have been beaten up by the world all their lives break down into tears and come to Jesus. John 3:16 is the real message.

So that total depravity game is not based on reality it's a old antiquated philosophy.
 

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