Okay, thanks.
Comparing Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism
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Maurice
Member
Did I ever tell you about the time I was wrong? Oh wait a minute...? the two times I was wrong. Okay... okay the 22 times I was wrong. Maybe it was the seven times seven times I was wrong. The main thing is that we remain teachable. If not there's a big tendency to be stuck on stupid.
Here is some good insight on this topic from the Bible.
“Do not think too highly of yourself” (12:3).
“You, then, why do you judge your brother?” (14:10).
“Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another” (14:13).
“We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves” (15:1).
The conclusion is truly beautiful: “But since we hope for that which we do not see, we wait for it with patient endurance.”
This reminds us of a similar Pauline passage, namely, “We fix our eyes not on the things that are seen, but on the things that are not seen; for the things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are not seen are eternal” (2 Cor. 4:18).
In the meantime:
Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
The clouds ye so much dread
Are big with mercy and shall break
In blessings on your head.
His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour,
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flower.
William Cowper, 1772
And in the same way the Spirit too is helping us in our weakness, for we do not know what we ought to pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings. And he who searches the hearts knows what is the Spirit’s intention, that he is interceding for the saints in harmony with God’s will. Romans 8:26–27
Um nowhere do we read faith is infused or effectually given
No? Where does it come from? Who gets the glory?
So your answer to Paul's question, " what do you have you have not recieved", would be faith? I did that on my own?
God always gets the glory. He saves. Faith is of no intrinsic value, save the fact God chooses to save those with faith.
The context of the verse you quote has nothing to do with saving faith, but God created man with the ability to have faith.
It is, however, man's responsibility to use it in the proper manner.
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Where does your faith come from? You did not have and now you do.
Faith has value to God and it saves you.
Nowhere is it written God gave man the ability to exercise saving faith.
No one says it's not man's responsibility.
God made man with the ability for faith
Faith comes from hearing the word of God
Nowhere do we read God infuses or effectually, unilaterally causes faith in man.
Nowhere stated in scripture.
Does the word of God infuse faith in you? If not, then where does it come from?
I understand your position. Hence my questions.
um that is what I stated
Infuse? no, never claimed it did.
Faith is man's response to the word
Prove what?
That faith is man's response that he does not need it to be effectually given
yes i can
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Prove what? Are you following along? That God created man the ability to exercise saving faith.
Not one of your proof-texts says what you claim it does. They do not address ability in any way. Your presupposing
Sorry you are in denial
Prove what?
That faith is man's response that he does not need it to be effectually given
yes i can
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
They clearly shows they had the ability to believe
that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
again ability is shown
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
Why hide truth truth lest they the should turn and be forgiven
clearly that shows ability
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Hello they believed
how can you baldly claim they had no ability when they did believe
that shows you are in denial
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
these did believe based on the testimony of the woman
how can youi baldly claim they had no ability to believe?
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Verse after verse shows men capable of believing given revelation
Bronson
Active member
"Biblically speaking, Molinists are more in line with the Arminian view. God chooses who will be saved because He knows who would choose Him. However, Molinists are more into fundamental nature of knowledge than the typical Arminian. In other words they're deep thinkers. Take for instance the fact they believe in God's middle knowledge. That one blows my mind.
Middle knowledge is God’s knowledge of what any free creature would do in any given circumstance, also known as counterfactual knowledge. It is also sometimes stated as God's knowledge of the truth of subjunctive conditionals.
I like what Rockson said in his post:
Middle knowledge is God’s knowledge of what any free creature would do in any given circumstance, also known as counterfactual knowledge. It is also sometimes stated as God's knowledge of the truth of subjunctive conditionals.
I like what Rockson said in his post:
We are not talking about response are we. We are talking about whether God created man with the inate ability to exercise saving faith.
Your proof texts are irrelevant. They do not say you can have faith because I created you that way. And that is the question.
The difference is in Molinism God actuates the world out of the many possible worlds which best meets his goals
sorry that still looks like denial to me
If man can believe without an effectually given gift of faith then it is obvious he was created with that ability
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
They clearly shows they had the ability to believe
that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
again ability is shown
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
Why hide truth truth lest they the should turn and be forgiven
clearly that shows ability
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Hello they believed
how can you baldly claim they had no ability when they did believe
that shows you are in denial
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
these did believe based on the testimony of the woman
how can youi baldly claim they had no ability to believe?
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Verse after verse shows men capable of believing given revelation
Redeemed
Active member
Middle knowledge that sounds kind of spooky like something from the Lord of the Rings.
No, what that actually is you inability to prove your premise.
It's obvious to you because of your theological leanings. Perhaps to some irs not so obvious.
You can believe something yet not necessarily put your trust in it.
The question was about saving faith and whether man has the inherent ability to exercise it.
You still have not explained exactly where your faith comes from if not from God.
civic
Well-known member
just like God made man with the ability to love, obey freely with mans will- the free will.
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