Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[mikesw]

FreeInChrist:

Since you realize Jehovah has no beginning based upon Psalm 90:2, then common sense should tell you that Jesus--who had a beginning--could not possibly be in a trinity in which Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god.

Duh. The One designated analogically as the Word becomes incarnate as Jesus and continues to exist but now we know as Jesus through incarnation. So one part that alter2ego has right is that the body of Jesus has a specific beginning. Alter2ego gets a half point on that post.

 

[Alter2Ego]

FreeInChrist:

I already went through this with you at Post 167. Below is the weblink.

"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- New International Version)

Psalm 90 NIV

Definition of everlasting:
1: lasting or enduring through all time : eternal

Definition of EVERLASTING

lasting or enduring through all time : eternal; continuing for a long time or indefinitely; having or being flowers or foliage that retain form or color for a long time when dried… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

"Before the mountains were born Or before You had given birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are [the eternal] God." (Psalm 90:2 -- Amplified Bible)

Psalm 90 Amplified Bible

"Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God." (Psalm 90:2 -- Holman Christian Bible)

Psalm 90 HCSB

Definition of eternal:
without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (temporal ).

eternal life.

ETERNAL Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

ETERNAL definition: without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing (temporal ). See examples of eternal used in a sentence.

www.dictionary.com

No one ever said he YHWH ever had a beginning. No one ever siad the WORD had a beginning.

The verse tells us

You need to stop lying, FreeInChrist. At Post 168, I distinctly told you that Jesus Christ aka the Word is a created being based upon the fact that John 1:1, at Clause number 1, says the following:

"In the beginning was the Word....

I then directed you, at that same Post 168, to part of the context to at John 1:18 where it says:


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

A begotten person is a created being, and all created beings had to have had a beginning. Below is the definition of "begotten."

begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Below is the link to Post 168. Go back and read it again, and you will see that I've already been through this with you.

Post in thread 'Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?'

Dec 23, 2025

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE...

• Alter2Ego

 

[mikesw]

You need to stop lying, FreeInChrist. At Post 168, I distinctly told you that Jesus Christ aka the Word is a created being based upon the fact that John 1:1, at Clause number 1, says the following:

"In the beginning was the Word....

I then directed you, at that same Post 168, to part of the context to at John 1:18 where it says:


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

A begotten person is a created being, and all created beings had to have had a beginning. Below is the definition of "begotten."

begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Below is the link to Post 168. Go back and read it again, and you will see that I've already been through this with you.

Post in thread 'Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?'

Dec 23, 2025

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE...

• Alter2Ego

scripture seems to confuse alter2ego instead of explain who Jesus is. When someone finds John 1 so confusing ... maybe some people are not called to understand the Word who created the universe and then becomes incarnate as the Son of God. Alter2ego tries to argue from perhaps the more difficult wording than from the more direct wording -- both whether to include "begotten" in the translation and whether to accept both words "Son" and "God" in the Greek texts as pointing to the deity of Christ. So Alter2ego prefers to play with a stacked deck instead of understanding the scriptures.

In reality then, alter2ego cannot simply go with the John 1:18 as the "only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father" but must also show that "the only God who is the bosom of the Father" also rejects the deity of Christ. Otherwise, the argument against the deity of Christ falls in total failure.

 

[FreeInChrist]

FreeInChrist:

Since you realize Jehovah has no beginning based upon Psalm 90:2, then common sense should tell you that Jesus--who had a beginning--could not possibly be in a trinity in which Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god.

How is it possible that you do not comprehend who the Word was, and when He was?

In case it has escaped you or it never dawned on you the deity was not big on "formal" names in with OT or NT.

We had the Father... who also said in the OT as God revealed His name as "Yahweh" to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15, stating, "I AM WHO I AM." This name signifies His eternal and unchanging nature. Further Yahweh is the personal name of God in the Hebrew Bible, often associated with the meaning "I am" or "He brings into existence." It is not a proper name as IT signifies God's eternal and self-existent nature, and is considered sacred in Jewish tradition. And "Yahweh" is widely accepted as the most likely pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton YHWH, which represents the name of God in the Hebrew Bible. However, the exact pronunciation is not definitively known due to the absence of vowels in ancient Hebrew writing and historical traditions that avoided pronouncing the name

Note... even YHWH , which is only a guess as to how it is pronounced is not a formal name......

Enter now the Holy Spirit. Have you ever once heard a formal name applied to Him?

So we come to the Word... who as the Word (not a formal name) was with I am in the beginning... and this Word came to earth to be born in flesh, see John 1:14 ... DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?... and an angel appeared to both Joseph and Mary about this and the name Jesus was told to name the baby when it was born.

YOU are 5000000000000 % correct when you say Jesus--who had a beginning- had a beginning because until he exited Mary's womb he was known as the Word.
This is fact and the Trinity from eternity back was I am, The Word and The Holy Spirit.....
Once The Word became flesh and mama and step dad named him Jesus as ordered by the angel then Jesus was no longer referenced as the Word on earth but as Jesus... and is why Jesus said
John 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus said he was existing before the world was..... But back then He was not called Jesus. (Ill let you research for yourself why that name was given to Him) Back then he was the Word.

Jesus was Jesus and also the Word

As I said Deity was not big on formal names......

 

[FreeInChrist]

You need to stop lying, FreeInChrist. At Post 168, I distinctly told you that Jesus Christ aka the Word is a created being based upon the fact that John 1:1, at Clause number 1, says the following:

"In the beginning was the Word....

I then directed you, at that same Post 168, to part of the context to at John 1:18 where it says:


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

A begotten person is a created being, and all created beings had to have had a beginning. Below is the definition of "begotten."

Exactly when did this happen.... this created person who did the creation of all we know?

The Word was not created. Jesus became Jesus in Mary's belly. 4ooo years after the Word and I am and the Holy Spirit created the world that allowed Jesus to come from her.

Here are the facts....

Your argument collapses because it falsely equates “begotten” with “created.” Scripture never does that.
“Created” means brought into existence from non-existence. “Begotten” describes origin by nature, not manufacture. A son is begotten from the father’s own being; a creature is created outside the creator’s being. Conflating the two is a basic logical error.

John does not say the Word was created.....he says “In the beginning was the Word” (Jn 1:1). The verb was places the Word already existing when the beginning occurred. Paul agrees: “All things were created through Him… and He is before all things” (Col 1:16–17). You cannot be the creator of all created things and simultaneously be a created thing yourself.

Hebrews 1 is explicit: the Son is “the radiance of God’s glory and the exact imprint of His nature”—not a product, not a creature, but God’s own essence shared, not made. If “begotten” meant “created,” then God would have had to create His own nature, which is absurd and unbiblical.

Begotten does not = created.
That equation is imposed on Scripture; it is not derived from it.

Now pay attention.....

If “begotten” means “created,” then God created His own nature—which is nonsense.

Scripture never calls the Son created; it says “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1), placing Him already existing before creation began.

The Son creates all created things (Col. 1:16), so He cannot belong to the category He Himself created.

Begotten speaks of shared nature, not a starting point—created speaks of manufacture. Confusing the two is the error

begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Below is the link to Post 168. Go back and read it again, and you will see that I've already been through this with you.

Post in thread 'Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?'

Dec 23, 2025

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE...

• Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

FreeInChrist:

Since you realize Jehovah has no beginning based upon Psalm 90:2, then common sense should tell you that Jesus--who had a beginning--could not possibly be in a trinity in which Jesus the son and Jehovah the Father are the same god.

How is it possible that you do not comprehend who the Word was, and when He was?

. . .

Jesus said he was existing before the world was..... But back then He was not called Jesus. (Ill let you research for yourself why that name was given to Him) Back then he was the Word.

Jesus was Jesus and also the Word

As I said Deity was not big on formal names......

FreeInChrist:

Suffice it to say, I didn't read most of your rant at Post 304.

Jesus existed before all OTHER created beings. Scripture says Jesus was the first to be created.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New International Version)

Colossians 1 NIV

A created being does not have the power to create. So what's your point?

 

[mikesw]

FreeInChrist:

Suffice it to say, I didn't read most of your rant at Post 304.

Jesus existed before all OTHER created beings. Scripture says Jesus was the first to be created.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New International Version)

Colossians 1 NIV

A created being does not have the power to create. So what's your point?

This is the type of response that leads me to highlight the idea of the one verse unitarian. This verse is being used to supersede clearer passage (even col 1:16) in the bible just to promote a unitarian interpretation.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You need to stop lying, FreeInChrist. At Post 168, I distinctly told you that Jesus Christ aka the Word is a created being based upon the fact that John 1:1, at Clause number 1, says the following:

"In the beginning was the Word....

I then directed you, at that same Post 168, to part of the context to at John 1:18 where it says:


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Bible)

John 1 KJV

A begotten person is a created being, and all created beings had to have had a beginning. Below is the definition of "begotten."

begotten

2 of 2

adjective​

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent

Definition of BEGOTTEN

… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Below is the link to Post 168. Go back and read it again, and you will see that I've already been through this with you.

Post in thread 'Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?'

Dec 23, 2025

atpollard:

John 1:1 has three independent clauses. Look at Clause #1. It says: "In the beginning was the Word...."

According to Christendom's Trinity, Jesus Christ aka "the Word" does not have a beginning.


Christendom's Trinity is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE...

• Alter2Ego

Exactly when did this happen.... this created person who did the creation of all we know?

FreeInChrist:

A created being is not capable of creating. You are reading Colossians 1:16 with Trinitarian lenses. Only Jehovah God can create. Jehovah was the power behind all creation, but he worked through Jesus.


"for through him [Jesus] God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:16)

Colossians 1 NLT

"God created everything through him [Jesus], and nothing was created except through him." (John 1:3 -- New Living Translation)

John 1 NLT

Jehovah/Yahweh the Father himself declared that he alone is Creator.

"Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, Yahweh, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone," (Isaiah 44:24 -- Legacy Standard Bible)

Isaiah 44 Legacy Standard Bible

"Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth ( who is with me? );" (Isaiah 44:24 -- American Standard Version)

Isaiah 44 ASV

 

[Alter2Ego]

The Word was not created. Jesus became Jesus in Mary's belly. 4ooo years after the Word and I am and the Holy Spirit created the world that allowed Jesus to come from her.
. . .
Begotten does not = created.

FreeInChrist:

Show us a definition from a common English dictionary that indicates "Begotten does not = created."


Ready, set, go!

 

[Alter2Ego]

Then I suggest that you ask the people at Strong to explain to you how to talk your way around the word creation as in "firstborn of all creation," as used at Colossians 1:15 with reference to Jesus. Also ask the people at Strong to help you explain how the word "creation" means the exact opposite, as you claim, "not created."

c. The firstborn over all creation: Firstborn (the ancient Greek word prototokos) can describe either priority in time or supremacy in rank. As Paul used it here, he probably had both ideas in mind, with Jesus being before all created things and Jesus being of a supremely different order than all created things.

atpollard:

None of that argument changes the fact that the scripture at Colossians 1:15 distinctly says Jesus is among "all creation." It doesn't matter about priority in time or supremacy in rank. Let's see you talk your way around the word "creation" as it appears at that verse of scripture.


Ready, set, go!

 

[mikesw]

atpollard:

None of that argument changes the fact that the scripture at Colossians 1:15 distinctly says Jesus is among "all creation." It doesn't matter about priority in time or supremacy in rank. Let's see you talk your way around the word "creation" as it appears at that verse of scripture.


Ready, set, go!

This is the type of response that leads me to highlight the idea of the one verse unitarian. This verse is being used to supersede clearer passage (even col 1:16) in the bible just to promote a unitarian interpretation.

 

[atpollard]

atpollard:

None of that argument changes the fact that the scripture at Colossians 1:15 distinctly says Jesus is among "all creation." It doesn't matter about priority in time or supremacy in rank. Let's see you talk your way around the word "creation" as it appears at that verse of scripture.


Ready, set, go!

Were you dropped on your head as a child?

It says Jesus is [Col 1:15] “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

• I explained to you that “image” is the Greek word “eikon”, which makes Jesus not merely “similar”, but the very STAMP of God … making the invisible God, knowable to us.
• I explained that “firstborn” is the Greek word “prōtotokos”, which makes Jesus prior (first) in time and supreme in rank (authority) … that is what “firstborn” means in the Bible … chronologically first and inheriting the authority.
• Since Jesus is “the STAMP of God” and “prior in time and supreme in rank” over creation … Jesus is not PART OF CREATION (any more than God is part of creation).

You asked for an explanation, I offered an explanation, you ignored my explanation and then you ask for an explanation AGAIN! What is your malfunction?

That which comes PRIOR to creation is not part of creation.
That which is SUPERIOR TO creation is not part of creation.
Colossians 1:15 DOES NOT STATE that Jesus was created, it proves that Jesus IS THE CREATOR (that would be God) … just like John 1 tells us (among so many other verses). Good grief, Jesus was murdered for claiming to be God … it was not just a misunderstanding.

 

[Capbook]

Show us a definition from a common English dictionary that indicates "Begotten does not = created."


Ready, set, go!

Why common dictionary Alter2Ego?
Scared what the truth goes? Bible words needs Bible dictionaries.
As it would guides us to the truth, the only way to eternal life. (1John 5:11,12,20)

 

[FreeInChrist]

FreeInChrist:

Suffice it to say, I didn't read most of your rant at Post 304.

Jesus existed before all OTHER created beings. Scripture says Jesus was the first to be created.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- New International Version)

Colossians 1 NIV

A created being does not have the power to create. So what's your point?

You have yet to provide a scripture that says that Jesus was created!

You have yet to provide a scripture that says the Word was created!

The Holy book from God has provided scripture that says the Word became flesh.

The flesh the Word became came from a woman. It is inconceivable to say that flesh was created.

Even YOUR Col 1:15 states that "the firstborn over all creation." ..... He was firstborn before any creation was create = Firstborn over all because he came first.

I did not say it.... YOU DID

 

[e v e]

God is plural.

A. This one God is known in the OT as Jehovah or Yahweh (“the LORD”)

1. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39; Josh. 22:34; 1 Kings 8:60; 18:21, 39; Ps. 100:3; 118:27; etc.

2. Texts where the compound name “Jehovah God” (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:4-9, 15-22; 3:1, 8-9, 13-14, 21-23; 24:3; Ex. 9:30; Ps. 72:18; 84:11; Jonah 4:6

3. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29

4. The Bible never speaks of “the gods” as a group that includes Yahweh; nor is creation ever credited to “gods”; nor does it ever enjoin the worship of “gods”; nor does it speak in any other way that would imply that Yahweh was one of a group of deities. In fact the Bible explicitly rejects these types of statements (e.g., Deut. 5:6-10; 6:4-5, 13; Is. 43:10; 44:6-8, 24).

5. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim

B. This one God, the LORD, is one single divine being

1. The Bible always refers to the LORD or God in the third person singular (he, his, him), never as they, and speakers in the Bible addressing God/the LORD always do so in the second person singular (you singular). Citing texts is really unnecessary because there are far too many occurrences, but see, for example, Gen. 1:5, 10; Ex. 3:6, 12-14; 20:7; Deut. 32:39; 1 Kings 18:39; Ps. 23:2-3.

2. Whenever in the Bible the LORD or God speaks to human beings or other creatures, he always speaks of himself in the first person singular (I, and my/mine, not us/we andour/ours). Of the obviously numerous examples, see the especially famous examples in Ex. 3:14; Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6. He says “I am the LORD” or “I am the LORD your/their God” some 164 times in the OT (especially in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Isaiah, and Ezekiel).

3. This conclusion cannot be circumvented by saying that there is one “Godhead” consisting of a plurality of divine beings. The word “Godhead” is equivalent to the word “Godhood” (-head is an old English suffix meaning the state or status of something, as in maidenhead, the state of being a maiden or virgin). In the English Bible it is used to translate three closely related words: theion (“divine being,” Acts 17:29), theiotês (“divine nature,” Rom. 1:20), and theotês (“deity,” Col. 2:9). In none of these texts does “Godhead” refer to more than one divine being. The use of “Godhead” as a term for the Trinity is not found in the Bible; it is not inaccurate per se, but it must be understood as a term for a single divine being, not a group of gods.

C. However, the Bible never says that God is “one person.”

1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated “substance” in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 “God” refers specifically to the Father.

2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person.

3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but ironically the Hebrew literally means “his faces.”

D. The use of plural pronouns by God in Genesis 1-11

1. As already noted, the Bible always refers to God in the singular, and he always speaks of himself with singular pronouns (I, me, mine, my) when addressing creatures. These singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three “persons” as long as these persons are not separate beings.

2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretations cannot account for these occurrences.

a. A plural reference to God and the angels is not likely in these texts. In 1:26 “our image” is explained by the parallel in 1:27, “in God’s image.” In 3:22 “like one of us” refers back to 3:5, “like God.” In 11:7 “let us go down and there confuse their language” is explained immediately in 11:8-9, “So the LORD [Yahweh] scattered them abroad from there … The LORD confused the language of the whole earth.” Angels were evidently present when God created human beings (cf. Job 38:4-7), but the Bible never includes them as participants in creating human beings. Nor does the Bible ever speak of humans as being in the image of angels.

b. That the plural is in some way literal is evident from 3:22 (“like one of us”) and from 11:7 (“Come, let us go down”), which parallels the people’s statements “Come, let us …” (11:3, 4).

c. The “literary plural” (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to OT texts in which God is speaking, not writing.

d. The “plural of deliberation” or “cohortative plural” (as in “Let’s see now …”) with reference to a single person is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and clearly cannot explain the plural in Gen. 3:22 (“like one of us”).

e. The “plural of amplitude” or of “fullness” (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of “God”) is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.

f. The “plural of majesty” (the royal “we”) is possibly attested in 1 Kings 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these is a certain use of that idiom; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.

3. There are two factors that may explain why these intradivine plural pronouns occur only in Genesis 1-11.

a. These plural pronouns express communication among the divine persons, rather than communication from God to human beings or angelic creatures.

b. It may be significant that the use of these plural forms is reported only in Genesis 1-11, prior to the revelations to Abraham, when the focus of biblical revelation became the fostering of a monotheistic faith. The history of the OT is a history of the struggle to establish Israel as a community committed to belief in one God. In that context it would have been confusing to have referred overtly to the three divine persons of the triune God. This also explains why there is no overt revelation of the three persons in the OT.

E. The uniqueness of God should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons

1. Only one God, thus unique: see I.A

2. None are even like God: see I.B

3. God cannot be fully comprehended: Is. 40:18, 25; 1 Cor. 8:2-3

4. God can be known only insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18

5. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16

6. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench

a. Separate from the world: Is. 40:22; Acts 17:24

b. Contrasted with the world: Ps. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17

c. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Ps. 33:6; 102:25; Is. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3

hope this helps !!!

elohim are *generally fallen angels.


Christ is God's son, and our deity.