Calvinism makes man a new creation apart from Christ

[Behold]

I'm not a Calvinist, but that is a gross misrepresentation of Calvinism. God doesn't make anyone believe.

Were you "pre-destined": to believe?
Or did you choose Christ, not being pre-destined?

Have you ever actually talked to a TULIP = Calvinist?

There are quite a few on this Forum.

Talk to BRIGHTFRAME, and he'll tell you that He was BORN AGAIN, BEFORE = He had FAITH IN CHRIST.. And he only has that because God "gifted Him with Faith"....after he was born again, first.

A.) That's not possible, but that is CALVINISM.

enjoy it, as its a bane against the Cross...., its a cancer on the Body of Christ

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Were you "pre-destined": to believe?
Or did you choose Christ, not being pre-destined?

I was called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I was predestined to be born from above. I believe because I was born from above.

 

[TomL]

That verse is correct. However, it doesn't tell you why one person believes and another doesn't.

It does indicate it is something they must do

which in context Jesus did not dispute here

John 6:27–35 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

 

[TomL]

I'm not a Calvinist, but that is a gross misrepresentation of Calvinism. God doesn't make anyone believe.

Um that is false

Irresistible grace and the gift of faith say otherwise so also the Calvinist doctrine of total inability

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It does indicate it is something they must do

which in context Jesus did not dispute here

John 6:27–35 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Again, you are presupposing that Jesus was somehow legally required to answer according to their question. Jesus, instead, just told the truth.

 

[Behold]

I was called according to His purpose.

The will of God is that all will believe in Jesus.

Those who went to Hell today proves that not all will believe, but all are certainly offered "the Gift of Salvation.

John 3:16.

And if your read

2 Corinthians 5:19 and John 3:17, you'll note that God was in Christ for the WORLD and not just Calvin's "pre-destined" LIE.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

That happens to born again, AFTER you die.

Whereas, down here, you are to become.. "as many as be PERFECT"... as "The fullness of the Stature of Christ".

So, what [Delete] JOHN C did, was twist this verse === "conformed into the image of Jesus."".. and this one Phrase = "God's Foreknowledge".... into.. "Pre-Destined"

See what he did?
And by doing that, he then wrote an entire Cross Rejectiong Theology based on redefining : "God's Foreknowledge" as "Pre-Destined".

 

[TomL]

Again, you are presupposing that Jesus was somehow legally required to answer according to their question. Jesus, instead, just told the truth.

No I am saying context supports the claim that is something which God required of them

V 27 Jesus tells them to work

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

The idea that Jesus was telling them what God must do is anti-contextual and untenable

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The will of God is that all will believe in Jesus.

Those who went to Hell today proves that not all will believe, but all are certainly offered "the Gift of Salvation.

John 3:16.

And if your read

2 Corinthians 5:19 and John 3:17, you'll note that God was in Christ for the WORLD and not just Calvin's "pre-destined" LIE.



That happens to born again, AFTER you die.

Whereas, down here, you are to become.. "as many as be PERFECT"... as "The fullness of the Stature of Christ".

So, what Demonic JOHN C did, was twist this verse === "conformed into the image of Jesus."".. and this one Phrase = "God's Foreknowledge".... into.. "Pre-Destined"

See what he did?
And by doing that, he then wrote an entire Cross Rejectiong Theology based on redefining : "God's Foreknowledge" as "Pre-Destined".

Believe what you want to believe. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No I am saying context supports the claim that is something which God required of them

That's exactly what I said. You presume that Jesus had to answer the question the way they WANTED Him to answer it. Instead, Jesus told the truth.

 

[TomL]

That's exactly what I said. You presume that Jesus had to answer the question the way they WANTED Him to answer it. Instead, Jesus told the truth.

No you just ignored the argument and the context and assumed a view consistent with your theology

V 27 Jesus tells them to work

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

The idea that Jesus was telling them what God must do is anti-contextual and untenable

 

[TomL]

The will of God is that all will believe in Jesus.

Those who went to Hell today proves that not all will believe, but all are certainly offered "the Gift of Salvation.

John 3:16.

And if your read

2 Corinthians 5:19 and John 3:17, you'll note that God was in Christ for the WORLD and not just Calvin's "pre-destined" LIE.

It should also be noted

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

any who do not believe are a part of the world Christ came to save

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

No you just ignored the argument and the context and assumed a view consistent with your theology

V 27 Jesus tells them to work

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

The idea that Jesus was telling them what God must do is anti-contextual and untenable

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Work for the food which endures to everlasting life, which is the flesh and blood of Jesus. So, what you're saying is that we have to work to eat the flesh and blood of Jesus. Got it. You go do that.

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus doesn't have to answer the way they asked. Jesus told the truth.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[TomL]

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Work for the food which endures to everlasting life, which is the flesh and blood of Jesus. So, what you're saying is that we have to work to eat the flesh and blood of Jesus. Got it. You go do that.

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus doesn't have to answer the way they asked. Jesus told the truth.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Assumption which neither v28 or v30 or verse 32ff support and is contrary to what Jesus told them in v27

you are assuming your view and not exegeting the text

V 27 Jesus tells them to work

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Assumption which neither v28 or v30 or verse 32ff support and is contrary to what Jesus told them in v27

you are assuming your view and not exegeting the text

V 27 Jesus tells them to work for the food that brings them life, that is, the flesh and blood of Jesus.

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

So go do that. Bon appetite.

 

[TomL]

So go do that. Bon appetite.

These remain the facts

Assumption which neither v28 or v30 or verse 32ff support and is contrary to what Jesus told them in v27

you are assuming your view and not exegeting the text

V 27 Jesus tells them to work for the food that brings them life, that is, the flesh and blood of Jesus.

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

 

[synergy]

I'm half Greek. But aside from that, what you are claiming is that the translators didn't know Greek grammar, but some bozo agrees with you and you use that as an appeal to authority. That's hilarious.

Try this in Greek:

That picture (feminine) is beautiful (feminine) and that (neuter) is interesting.

It's really awkward in Greek when the genders don't match up. What happens is that your mind goes to the entire thought or expression of "that picture is beautiful". Greek is a very thoughtful, contemplative, philosophical language. So TomL and company are the clear winners here.

 

[Rockson]

These remain the facts

Assumption which neither v28 or v30 or verse 32ff support and is contrary to what Jesus told them in v27

you are assuming your view and not exegeting the text

V 27 Jesus tells them to work for the food that brings them life, that is, the flesh and blood of Jesus.

v28 The Jews ask what must they do to work the works of God defining the phrase as that which God requires

v29 Jesus after telling them to work says they must believe

v30 the Jews understand Jesus is telling them what they must do and ask for a sign that they might believe. They clearly demonstrate that they understood Jesus was telling them someything they must do. Remember this is after Jesus told them to work

v32ff Jesus does nothing to contradict that understanding, re-affirming they must believe

Sure. The whole passage from start to finish demolishes the Calvinist argument. Even John Calvinist as you pointed out Tom DID NOT agree with what the few people on here are trying to assert.

It's not hard to image that it's agents not of flesh and blood which would seek to talk people into a strange bizarre concept not found in scripture that one isn't called upon to believe. I suppose they even laugh about it wondering how dumb can people get? They sprinkle a little pride on some making them want to resist any admission that they might be wrong and there's no telling the depth one might go in denying the self evident. My cry to them don't let this happen to you.

 

[TibiasDad]

That verse is correct. However, it doesn't tell you why one person believes and another doesn't.

Perhaps because it a) doesn’t matter, or b) because they don’t want to, because they love darkness rather than light; they know they are sinning but don’t want to stop what there doing, or c) because God leaves the decision to us, and Satan is good at lying to us and plays on our natural selfish instincts to convince us that it’s not a good time to follow Jesus.

To contrive such a non-biblical and philosophically based question as a linchpin of your reasoning behind your theology is a sign to me of the weakness of the Calvinistic argument.

Doug

 

[TomL]

Sure. The whole passage from start to finish demolishes the Calvinist argument. Even John Calvinist as you pointed out Tom DID NOT agree with what the few people on here are trying to assert.

It's not hard to image that it's agents not of flesh and blood which would seek to talk people into a strange bizarre concept not found in scripture that one isn't called upon to believe. I suppose they even laugh about it wondering how dumb can people get? They sprinkle a little pride on some making them want to resist any admission that they might be wrong and there's no telling the depth one might go in denying the self evident. My cry to them don't let this happen to you.

Yes, it is rather plain the clear meaning of scripture takes a backseat to the needs of their theology. It's not scripture and proper exegesis driving their understanding

 

[TomL]

Try this in Greek:

That picture (feminine) is beautiful (feminine) and that (neuter) is interesting.

It's really awkward in Greek when the genders don't match up. What happens is that your mind goes to the entire thought or expression of "that picture is beautiful". Greek is a very thoughtful, contemplative, philosophical language. So TomL and company are the clear winners here.

When even other Calvinists dispute them, it should really give them pause.