Calvinism is antithetical to Christology

[Rockson]

I had only read up to Matthew 5:6 - "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." and I knew in my heart that Jesus was saying to me: "You shall be saved (or born again)" and I haven't doubted it since then.

What exactly do you mean you shall be born again? Do you not believe one is born again when they surrender to the Lordship of Christ, that very moment and their spirit is made a new creation?

So my regeneration took place at the same time as I first believed in Jesus. I was blown away by reading His words! Shaken in my heart! It was as if the Holy Spirit just fell on me.

If someone asks me today, "How do you get born again?", my response will be: "Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John".

I'm not sure what you're saying? Are you saying YOU WOULDN'T reveal and talk to them about the substitutionary death of Jesus that, that's exactly what it was? I think there's a lot of people that just read the gospels, cherry pick verses to create a religion of ethics but don't actually get born again.

I would NOT tell them: "Repeat this prayer after me, if you believe it in your heart." It's the word of God, and specifically the GOSPEL OF JESUS that saves, NOT a prayer!

Well Yes the gospel, good news is the power of God which saves but it's a message which shows us why and how we can believe UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. That must be clear. I've never been one who has made light of a sinners prayer. All it is, is the point in which someone chooses to acknowledge what Jesus did and receives his grace.

 

[Johann]

When "God chose us in Him"(Eph 1:4), the following is effected:

(2 Co 5:17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

So according to your "chosen even before I believed" statement, are you saying that all the above are yours before you believed in Christ?

No-I am not saying that.
1:4 "He chose us" This is an aorist middle indicative which emphasized the subject's decisive choice.

This focused on the Father's choice before time.

God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the ultra Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense.

God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5-6). - God calls all in Christ (cf. John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4;14. God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ. The believers' choice of trusting in Christ confirms, not determines, God's choice of them.

God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44, 65).

This text and Rom. 8:28-30; 9:1-33 are the main NT texts for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin.

God chose believers not only to salvation (justification) but also to sanctification (cf. Col. 1:12)! This could relate to

1. our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)

2. God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 4:3)

God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!

The pronouns in this passage are ambiguous. Most refer to God the Father. This whole passage speaks of His love, purpose and plan to redeem fallen mankind. However, in context it is obvious that the pronouns in Eph. 1:7, 9, 13 & 14 refer to Jesus.

"in Him" This is a key concept. The Father's blessings, grace and salvation flow only through Christ (cf. John 10:7-18; 14:6). Notice the repetition of this grammatical form (locative of sphere) in Eph. 1:3, "in Christ"; Eph. 1:4, "in Him"; Eph. 1:7, "in Him"; Eph. 1:9, "in Him"; Eph. 1:10, "in Christ," "in Him"; Eph. 1:12, "in Christ" and Eph. 1:13, "in Him" (twice). These are parallel to "in the Beloved" of Eph. 1:6. Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind (Karl Barth). Jesus is the elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (cf. John 3:16). All of God the Father's blessings flow through Christ.

"before the foundation of the world" This phrase is also used in Matt. 25:34; John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:19-20 and Rev. 13:8. It shows the Triune God's redemptive activity even before Gen. 1:1.

Humans are limited by their sense of time; everything to us is past, present, or future, but not to God. History for Him is eternally present.
file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/2019%20Computer%20Bible%20Study%20Library%20--%20English/HTML/new_testament_studies/VOL08/VOL08B_01.html

ELECTION AND REPROBATION

Lesson 4: Predestined to Adoption (Ephesians 1:5-6)

Johann

 

[Johann]

When "God chose us in Him"(Eph 1:4), the following is effected:

(2 Co 5:17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

So according to your "chosen even before I believed" statement, are you saying that all the above are yours before you believed in Christ?

And oh-by the way-thanks for responding NOW when I posted this about a week ago-

James White Comments on a Sermon by James McCarthy, Author of *John Calvin Goes to Berkeley*

James White reviewed a sermon by James McCarthy, author of

evangelicalarminians.org

Give this a listen.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

When "God chose us in Him"(Eph 1:4), the following is effected:

(2 Co 5:17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

So according to your "chosen even before I believed" statement, are you saying that all the above are yours before you believed in Christ?

Friend-I don't claim to know it all-you guys on this Forum seems to know the whole counsel of God.

But I do believe Mike Winger is making a biblical case.
J.

 

[Johann]

Friend-I don't claim to know it all-you guys on this Forum seems to know the whole counsel of God.

But I do believe Mike Winger is making a biblical case.
J.

-A biblical case that I was chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world-

"before the foundation of the world" This phrase is also used in Matt. 25:34; John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:19-20 and Rev. 13:8. It shows the Triune God's redemptive activity even before Gen. 1:1. Col. 1:6. Humans are limited by their sense of time; everything to us is past, present, or future, but not to God. History for Him is eternally present.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them [sheep] on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world :
Joh 17:23 I in them, and Thou in Me, in order that they may be perfected in one; and in order that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and lovedst them, even as Thou lovedst Me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation [overthrow] of the world.

1Pe 1:18 Knowing that ye were not redeemed by corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain behaviour handed down from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But by the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in the last of the times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by Him do believe in God, That raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over every tribe and people, and tongue, and nation.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written in the book of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
J.

 

[synergy]

No-I am not saying that.
1:4 "He chose us" This is an aorist middle indicative which emphasized the subject's decisive choice.

This focused on the Father's choice before time.

God's choice must not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the ultra Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense.

God promised to redeem fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 3:15). God called and chose Abraham to choose all humans (cf. Gen. 12:3; Exod. 19:5-6). - God calls all in Christ (cf. John 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4;14. God Himself elected all persons who would exercise faith in Christ. The believers' choice of trusting in Christ confirms, not determines, God's choice of them.

You are conflating Justification with Election. Not everyone who was elected was justified. The elect nation of Israel is an excellent example. Only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation (2 Th 2:13).

God always takes the initiative in salvation (cf. John 6:44, 65).

This text and Rom. 8:28-30; 9:1-33 are the main NT texts for the doctrine of predestination emphasized by Augustine and Calvin.

God chose believers not only to salvation (justification) but also to sanctification (cf. Col. 1:12)! This could relate to

Again, 2 Th 2:13 proves that only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation.

1. our position in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21)

2 Cor 5:21 is addressing believers, those already justified which is the same case in Eph 1:4.

2. God's desire to reproduce His character in His children (cf. Eph. 2:10; Rom. 8:28-29; Gal. 4:19; 1 Thess. 4:3)

God's will for His children is both heaven one day and Christlikeness now!

You're getting into predestination now. Do you want to open up that topic also?

The pronouns in this passage are ambiguous. Most refer to God the Father. This whole passage speaks of His love, purpose and plan to redeem fallen mankind. However, in context it is obvious that the pronouns in Eph. 1:7, 9, 13 & 14 refer to Jesus.

"in Him" This is a key concept. The Father's blessings, grace and salvation flow only through Christ (cf. John 10:7-18; 14:6). Notice the repetition of this grammatical form (locative of sphere) in Eph. 1:3, "in Christ"; Eph. 1:4, "in Him"; Eph. 1:7, "in Him"; Eph. 1:9, "in Him"; Eph. 1:10, "in Christ," "in Him"; Eph. 1:12, "in Christ" and Eph. 1:13, "in Him" (twice). These are parallel to "in the Beloved" of Eph. 1:6. Jesus is God's "yes" to fallen mankind (Karl Barth). Jesus is the elect man and all are potentially elect in Him (cf. John 3:16). All of God the Father's blessings flow through Christ.

"in Him" is indeed a key concept. How else can one be "in Christ" without believing "in Christ"?

"before the foundation of the world" This phrase is also used in Matt. 25:34; John 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:19-20 and Rev. 13:8. It shows the Triune God's redemptive activity even before Gen. 1:1.

Humans are limited by their sense of time; everything to us is past, present, or future, but not to God. History for Him is eternally present.
file:///C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/2019%20Computer%20Bible%20Study%20Library%20--%20English/HTML/new_testament_studies/VOL08/VOL08B_01.html

ELECTION AND REPROBATION

Lesson 4: Predestined to Adoption (Ephesians 1:5-6)

Is it possible to focus on election first and then I'll be more than happy to talk about predetination afterwards.

Johann

You did not directly addressing the verses I quoted. I see you made no mention of 2 Co 5:17 nor Eph 2:13. Please do so in the interest of this conversation.

Mike Winger is a very likeable person and he is honestly attempting to be Biblical but I would ask him the same questions I asked you. On the other hand, James White has no excuse for his many failures to understand Biblical election, predestination, Christ's Atonement, and his massive failure to understand even the basics of Christology.

 

[Johann]

You are conflating Justification with Election. Not everyone who was elected was justified. The elect nation of Israel is an excellent example. Only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation (2 Th 2:13).

Again, 2 Th 2:13 proves that only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation.

2 Cor 5:21 is addressing believers, those already justified which is the same case in Eph 1:4.

You're getting into predestination now. Do you want to open up that topic also?

"in Him" is indeed a key concept. How else can one be "in Christ" without believing "in Christ"?

Is it possible to focus on election first and then I'll be more than happy to talk about predetination afterwards.

You did not directly addressing the verses I quoted. I see you made no mention of 2 Co 5:17 nor Eph 2:13. Please do so in the interest of this conversation.

Mike Winger is a very likeable person and he is honestly attempting to be Biblical but I would ask him the same questions I asked you. On the other hand, James White has no excuse for his many failures to understand Biblical election, predestination, Christ's Atonement, and his massive failure to understand even the basics of Christology.

Oh-I didn't realize we are debating-
You want to deal with the topic on election first?
J.

 

[Johann]

You are conflating Justification with Election. Not everyone who was elected was justified. The elect nation of Israel is an excellent example. Only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation (2 Th 2:13).

So do you exclude justification from salvation?

Again, 2 Th 2:13 proves that only those who believe the Truth (Christ) are elected onto salvation.

But not justified?

2 Cor 5:21 is addressing believers, those already justified which is the same case in Eph 1:4.

So were the believers in 2 Th
2:13 not justified?

"in Him" is indeed a key concept. How else can one be "in Christ" without believing "in Christ"?

You're getting into predestination now. Do you want to open up that topic also?

Are you making a distinction between justification, sanctification, predestination?

We agree on "in Him"

On the other hand, James White has no excuse for his many failures to understand Biblical election, predestination, Christ's Atonement, and his massive failure to understand even the basics of Christology.

Really?
Is it possible to focus on election first and then I'll be more than happy to talk about predetination afterwards.

Present your case and scripture references.

I don't agree with your judgement on James White-pray for him and his family.

 

[synergy]

Oh-I didn't realize we are debating-
You want to deal with the topic on election first?
J.

Please answer my question below by directly referencing the 2 verses I quoted:

When "God chose us in Him"(Eph 1:4), the following is effected:

(2 Co 5:17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

So according to your "chosen even before I believed" statement, are you saying that all the above are yours before you believed in Christ?

 

[synergy]

So do you exclude justification from salvation?

No, not at all. Now you're opening the discussion to salvation. Please keep to the subject which is election and belief (justification).

But not justified?

Huh? There is a direct relationship between belief (faith) and Justification. You can't have one without the other.

So were the believers in 2 Th
2:13 not justified?

Are you making a distinction between justification, sanctification, predestination?

... and election. Yes, there are definite differences between them all.

We agree on "in Him"

Present your case and scripture references.

I already did. I mentioned Eph 2:13, 2 Th 2:13, 2 Co 5:17, etc...

I don't agree with your judgement on James White-pray for him and his family.

James White, the Calvinist Prophet, believes in TULIP which strips the common man clean of any goodness that he does possess as images of God.

 

[Johann]

Please answer my question below by directly referencing the 2 verses I quoted:

"the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" Notice the purposeful interchange of verb tenses.

"old things passed away" This is AORIST TENSE in the INDICATIVE MOOD often refers to a completed act in past time. This refers to conversion.

"new things have come" This is PERFECT TENSE which refers to a past completed act with abiding results. This refers to discipleship.

There is a Greek manuscript variant which reflects "all things" in the final clause (i.e., MS D2). This type of clarifying addition is common for the later scribes. The oldest Greek manuscripts (i.e., MSS P46, א, B, C, D*, F, G) end with kaina. The UBS4 gives this reading an "A" rating (certain).

This concept of "new" is part of OT terminology for the eschaton. The OT prophets spoke of this new age.

"new things" (cf. Isa. 42:9; 43:19; Jer. 31:22)
"new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34)
"new heart, new spirit" (Ezek. 11:19; 18:31; 36:26)
"new name" (cf. Isa. 62:2; 56:5; 65:15)
"new song" (cf. Ps. 96:1; Isa. 42:10)
"new heavens and new earth" (cf. Isa. 65:17; 66:22)
This eschatological newness had come in Jesus, but the old was still present. The new has not been fully consummated. The overlapping of the Jewish "two ages" by Jesus' two comings was unforseen by OT prophets though they did depict the Messiah in lowly servant terms as well as victorious royal terms.



5:18 "Now all these things are from God" It is God's love that sent the Son into the world (cf. John 3:16). Salvation is totally from God , but believers must respond and continue to respond to the new covenant in repentance, faith, obedience, and perseverance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But now" There is a contrast between the hopeless past of the Gentiles, Eph. 2:11-12, and their great hope in the gospel, Eph. 2:13-22.

"you who formerly were far off have been brought near" This same concept is repeated in Eph. 2:17, where Isa. 57:19 is quoted. In Isaiah this text referred to Jewish exiles but here in Ephesians it refers to Gentiles. This is one example of Paul's typological use of OT passages. The NT Apostles have universalized the OT hope. As the exiled Jews were apart from God, so too, the Gentiles were alienated from God.

"by the blood of Christ." This referred to the vicarious, substitutionary atonement of Christ (cf. Eph. 1:7; Rom. 3:25; 5:6-10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:14,28; 1 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 1:5). God's family is no longer national, but spiritual (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:16-25).

The blood of Christ was a sacrificial metaphor (cf. Leviticus 1-2) for the death of the Messiah (cf. TEV). John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (cf. John 1:29). Jesus came to die (cf. Gen. 3:15; Isa. 53; Mark 10:45).

It also was a way to assert the true humanity of Jesus, (cf. Eph. 2:15) which the Gnostics denied.

2:14 This verse has three verbals. The first is a present indicative. Jesus continues to be and to provide our peace. The second and third are aorist active participles ("made both one" and "broke down the barrier"); all that is necessary has been accomplished to unite Jews and Gentiles into one new entity (the church).

Peace between Jew and Gentile is the focus of this literary unit, Eph. 2:11-3:13. This was the mystery of the gospel hidden in ages past. The term "peace" refers to

1. peace between God and mankind (cf. John 14:27; 16:33; Rom. 5:1-11; Phil. 4:7,9)

2. peace between Jew and Gentile, Eph. 2:14, 15, 17 (cf. Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11)

I stand by my statement brother
J.

 

[synergy]

"the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" Notice the purposeful interchange of verb tenses.

"old things passed away" This is AORIST TENSE in the INDICATIVE MOOD often refers to a completed act in past time. This refers to conversion.

"new things have come" This is PERFECT TENSE which refers to a past completed act with abiding results. This refers to discipleship.

There is a Greek manuscript variant which reflects "all things" in the final clause (i.e., MS D2). This type of clarifying addition is common for the later scribes. The oldest Greek manuscripts (i.e., MSS P46, א, B, C, D*, F, G) end with kaina. The UBS4 gives this reading an "A" rating (certain).

This concept of "new" is part of OT terminology for the eschaton. The OT prophets spoke of this new age.

"new things" (cf. Isa. 42:9; 43:19; Jer. 31:22)
"new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34)
"new heart, new spirit" (Ezek. 11:19; 18:31; 36:26)
"new name" (cf. Isa. 62:2; 56:5; 65:15)
"new song" (cf. Ps. 96:1; Isa. 42:10)
"new heavens and new earth" (cf. Isa. 65:17; 66:22)
This eschatological newness had come in Jesus, but the old was still present. The new has not been fully consummated. The overlapping of the Jewish "two ages" by Jesus' two comings was unforseen by OT prophets though they did depict the Messiah in lowly servant terms as well as victorious royal terms.



5:18 "Now all these things are from God" It is God's love that sent the Son into the world (cf. John 3:16). Salvation is totally from God , but believers must respond and continue to respond to the new covenant in repentance, faith, obedience, and perseverance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"But now" There is a contrast between the hopeless past of the Gentiles, Eph. 2:11-12, and their great hope in the gospel, Eph. 2:13-22.

"you who formerly were far off have been brought near" This same concept is repeated in Eph. 2:17, where Isa. 57:19 is quoted. In Isaiah this text referred to Jewish exiles but here in Ephesians it refers to Gentiles. This is one example of Paul's typological use of OT passages. The NT Apostles have universalized the OT hope. As the exiled Jews were apart from God, so too, the Gentiles were alienated from God.

"by the blood of Christ." This referred to the vicarious, substitutionary atonement of Christ (cf. Eph. 1:7; Rom. 3:25; 5:6-10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 1:20; Heb. 9:14,28; 1 Pet. 1:19; Rev. 1:5). God's family is no longer national, but spiritual (cf. Rom. 2:28-29; 4:16-25).

The blood of Christ was a sacrificial metaphor (cf. Leviticus 1-2) for the death of the Messiah (cf. TEV). John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (cf. John 1:29). Jesus came to die (cf. Gen. 3:15; Isa. 53; Mark 10:45).

It also was a way to assert the true humanity of Jesus, (cf. Eph. 2:15) which the Gnostics denied.

2:14 This verse has three verbals. The first is a present indicative. Jesus continues to be and to provide our peace. The second and third are aorist active participles ("made both one" and "broke down the barrier"); all that is necessary has been accomplished to unite Jews and Gentiles into one new entity (the church).

Peace between Jew and Gentile is the focus of this literary unit, Eph. 2:11-3:13. This was the mystery of the gospel hidden in ages past. The term "peace" refers to

1. peace between God and mankind (cf. John 14:27; 16:33; Rom. 5:1-11; Phil. 4:7,9)

2. peace between Jew and Gentile, Eph. 2:14, 15, 17 (cf. Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11)

I stand by my statement brother
J.

So you were made a new creature (2 Co 5:17), made near by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13) BEFORE you believed in Christ? That's what is being claimed by you with your "chosen even before I believed" statement in light of 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 2:13.

Tell us more about this novel state that Calvinism has you believing in.

 

[Johann]

So you were made a new creature (2 Co 5:17), made near by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:13) BEFORE you believed in Christ? That's what is being claimed by you with your "chosen even before I believed" statement in light of 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 2:13.

Tell us more about this novel anomalous state that Calvinism has you believing in.

Nitpick with someone else @synergy -I don't hold to Calvinism but you certainly can get some good food even there.

if you have anything edifying to share, share-but don't sit as an umpire or judge upon me-or what I share for the edification to other members-God is my witness, Christ my Judge-not you.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


Shalom
Johann.

 

[Dizerner]

Chosen doesn't necessitate the reception of the inheritance.

The real debate soteriologically, is what we are chosen on the basis of?

Does foreknowledge include a part of God's choice?


And this you will find is why many Calvinists attempt to redefine foreknowledge as God having a relationship with someone that doesn't exist.

 

[Dizerner]

Friend-I don't claim to know it all-you guys on this Forum seems to know the whole counsel of God.

I appreciate you proclaiming the partial counsel of God.

Seriously.

 

[synergy]

Nitpick with someone else @synergy -I don't hold to Calvinism but you certainly can get some good food even there.

This is the word of God we're talking about here. My mention of 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 2:13 is certainly not "nitpicking".

if you have anything edifying to share, share-but don't sit as an umpire or judge upon me-or what I share for the edification to other members-God is my witness, Christ my Judge-not you.

If 2 Cor 5:17 and Eph 2:13 is not edifying for you then that's most unfortunate.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

So you turn your frustration to me, ad hominem style. I'm just the messenger. That's all I am.

Be aware of what the word of God says about itself in Hebrews 4:12:
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[Johann]

Does foreknowledge include a part of God's choice?

FOREKNOWLEDGE

The NOUN prognōsis ("to know before") is used only in Acts 2:23 and 1 Pet. 1:2. The VERB proginōskō is used theologically in Rom. 8:29; 11:2.

This concept of God's knowing all of human history ahead of time is difficult for Bible believers to reconcile with human free will.

God is an eternal, spiritual Being who is not limited by temporal sequence.

Although He controls and shapes history (cf. 1 Pet. 1:20), humans are responsible for their motives and acts in time .

Foreknowledge does not affect God's love and election. If so, then it would be conditional on future human effort and merit. God is sovereign and He has chosen that His Covenant followers have some freedom of choice in responding to Him (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 8:28-29; 10:9-13).

There are two extremes in this area of theology:

freedom pushed too far: some say God does not know the future choices and actions of humans (i.e., Open Theism, which is a philosophical extension of Process Thought)
sovereignty pushed too far, which becomes God choosing some to heaven and some to hell (supralapsarianism, double-edged Calvinism)
I prefer the treat truths expressed in Psalm 139!
God knows the future but demands that humans must respond to His offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ on an individual basis.

This requirement of an individual, repentant, faith response does not diminish the Bible's clear revelation that God loves all humans and desires their salvation (cf. Isa. 55:1-3; Ezek. 18:23,32; John 1:29; 3:16; 6:33,51; 2 Cor. 5:19; 2 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14).

I'm not talking about universalism.

 

[GeneZ]

In this thread, I'd like to concentrate on the popular question concerning man's "free will". Calvinists adamantly scream that there is no such thing as free will.

​

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, ​

“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, ​

and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” ​

​

Calvinists get paranoid and feel the need to stabilize with their rigid doctrine of free will, because inwardly they want to out think God.
They do not know how to 'flow with God' which takes place after one has enough doctrine to move with God as God wants us to move.
The reason we need an abundance of doctrinal understanding?

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

Until we come to having enough understood Bible doctrine we will want to turn right when God would want to ascend. We will want to jump when God wants to stand still. His ways are different than our own.

God is Free. We must transform more and more into freedom - by faith.

The more the Spirit can be one with our thinking in our life, both moving in unison.... by means of knowing His ways through the knowledge of God's Word secured by sound teaching. His ways will form into our ways, and his thoughts will will become our thinking.

Then we can know free will.

 

[synergy]

Chosen doesn't necessitate the reception of the inheritance.

The real debate soteriologically, is what we are chosen on the basis of?

Does foreknowledge include a part of God's choice?


And this you will find is why many Calvinists attempt to redefine foreknowledge as God having a relationship with someone that doesn't exist.

That is so true. They will appeal to imagined concepts like the invisible church which means there are invisible members.

Another imagined concept is that they're ok with the state of being regenerated (alive) and not yet justified (dead in sins). In other words, they're ok with being the living dead in that phase of their soteriology.

 

[Johann]

I appreciate you proclaiming the partial counsel of God.

Seriously.

Sarcasm noted brother-and this on my Sunday.

So you know the -

Job_5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:

Psa_145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

Pro_25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph_3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

The unsearchable riches of Christ (to anexichniaston ploutos tou Christou). Anexichniastos (a privative and verbal of exichniazō, to track out, ex and ichnos, track) appears first in Job_5:9; Job_9:10.

Paul apparently got it from Job. Nowhere else in N.T. except Rom_11:33. In later Christian writers. Paul undertook to track out the untrackable in Christ.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does it mean Paul knew the unsearchable judgements of God-His ways past finding out?

How many mysteries were given to Paul from the risen Christ-and can you show me?

What did Job do after being interrogated by God?

Can you tell me you know the scriptures 100% and your theology is impeccable-do you practice what you preach?

Or do you talk your walk but not walk your talk?

How many Imperatives is recorded in Scriptures? If you know-are you doing what stands written-Perfect Tense?

Yes?
Johann.