Calvinism is antithetical to Christology

[e v e]

Christ, specifically, as both fully human and fully divine, now has His transfigured human body (with all other human attributes such as human will) in emblazened heavenly radiant light.

all the sons, restored, will rule with Christ...
their captain

Yes. Specifically us, we are not resurrected yet. Once we are resurrected then all our human features (body, mind, will) will not be disgarded but will be spiritually transformed.

It will be the gorgeous body made for man in Eden... which we lost.

 

[synergy]

all the sons, restored, will rule with Christ...
their captain

It will be the gorgeous body made for man in Eden... which we lost.

Absolutely! It will be glorious and mind-blowing!

 

[e v e]

The conundrum:
a free will is an absolute necessity for us to be truly guilty for our sins, for us to be able to become holy and for the heavenly marriage based upon love to actually exist.

Yet, no sinner can have a free will or the words enslaved (addicted) to sin have no meaning and are essentially useless babbel.

Therefore, it seems like we can only have had a free will before we sinned and, if we chose to sin, after our perfect sanctification unto pure hoiness when we are made ready for the Heavenly Mariage.

A free will must be free from all coercions from any source; a corrupted will is coerced by sinfulness to continue to sin in some way with every decision. Sanctification is not the process of HIM zapping us so we are now newly addicted to holiness with no power to sin. It is the process by which HE teaches us to always choose right over wrong and to do right because we now want to do it against what we used to want to do. WE learn to exchange the pleasures and profits of sin for the eternal pleasures and profits of always choosing the loving, righteous and just way.

this is a very good post.

 

[e v e]

in a way though it is like being zapped since our restoration to our original nature in paradise will be in a twinkling ...

 

[dwight92070]

Looked it up. I don't deny Christ took a huge step Down - for us - and was in this horrid human fleshbody for a time.

This "horrid human flesh body" is the temple of the Holy Spirit! We are "fearfully and wonderfully made". We are to glorify God in our bodies! Yes, I know that we sin, and He forgives us, but we are to "present our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship". So our bodies are to be holy, not horrid.
We will live in these same bodies for all eternity, except that we will have changed from a mortal body to an immortal body! Jesus is still living in His body that He had when He walked the earth, except He is now immortal - of course He is way beyond that, He is God!
So it is not good to hate or denigrate our bodies. We were created in God's image. We are to show the fruit of the Spirit, but if we hate our bodies, that can be hindered.

 

[e v e]

This "horrid human flesh body" is the temple of the Holy Spirit! We are "fearfully and wonderfully made". We are to glorify God in our bodies! Yes, I know that we sin, and He forgives us, but we are to "present our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship". So our bodies are to be holy, not horrid.
We will live in these same bodies for all eternity, except that we will have changed from a mortal body to an immortal body! Jesus is still living in His body that He had when He walked the earth, except He is now immortal - of course He is way beyond that, He is God!
So it is not good to hate or denigrate our bodies. We were created in God's image. We are to show the fruit of the Spirit, but if we hate our bodies, that can be hindered.

i'm saying it kindly, and not to argue....
that this body was a corruption after the fall
caused by adam
and will never enter paradise....
it is not holy.

The original body for us
in eden paradise
is the temple of Him.. not this one.

 

[dwight92070]

i'm saying it kindly, and not to argue....
that this body was a corruption after the fall
caused by adam
and will never enter paradise....
it is not holy.

The original body for us
in eden paradise
is the temple of Him.. not this one.

I think you are mistaken. Not to argue, also in kindness. Paul himself asked: "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore GLORIFY GOD IN YOUR BODY." 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Is the temple of the Holy Spirit horrid? I don't think so.
Sure, we do not yet have our immortal body, which we will receive at the rapture/second coming, but Paul tells us to glorify God even now in our MORTAL bodies. We can't glorify Him in our bodies by thinking our bodies are disgusting. They were disgusting, when we gave in to sin and followed the devil, but then we got saved, we were born again.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that those who are "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God. SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU (when our bodies WERE morally unclean, before we were saved) BUT YOU WERE WASHED, BUT YOU WERE SANCTIFIED (our bodies and our hearts are no longer morally unclean), but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God".

The same body that you are living in now, is the same body that God will raise from the grave or the tomb (John 5:28), but it will be raised immortal. We will have a glorified body then. We will be like Him.

There is a sense in which our bodies might be considered corrupt - that is, we decay and grow old. But we are commanded to be holy and filled with the spirit. How can a horrid human fleshbody be holy and filled with the Spirit?

Jesus told His disciples: " ... you are clean" John 13:10 He excluded Judas, who would betray Him, so we know He is not talking about an outer cleanliness of the body, but a moral inward washing. John 11:39 We have been washed on the inside, in our hearts. But our bodies too are set apart, holy, for His use.

 

[dwight92070]

I think you are mistaken. Not to argue, also in kindness. Paul himself asked: "Or do you not know that YOUR BODY is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore GLORIFY GOD IN YOUR BODY." 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Is the temple of the Holy Spirit horrid? I don't think so.
Sure, we do not yet have our immortal body, which we will receive at the rapture/second coming, but Paul tells us to glorify God even now in our MORTAL bodies. We can't glorify Him in our bodies by thinking our bodies are disgusting. They were disgusting, when we gave in to sin and followed the devil, but then we got saved, we were born again.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that those who are "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God. SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU (when our bodies WERE morally unclean, before we were saved) BUT YOU WERE WASHED, BUT YOU WERE SANCTIFIED (our bodies and our hearts are no longer morally unclean), but you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God".

The same body that you are living in now, is the same body that God will raise from the grave or the tomb (John 5:28), but it will be raised immortal. We will have a glorified body then. We will be like Him.

There is a sense in which our bodies might be considered corrupt - that is, we decay and grow old. But we are commanded to be holy and filled with the spirit. How can a horrid human fleshbody be holy and filled with the Spirit?

Jesus told His disciples: " ... you are clean" John 13:10 He excluded Judas, who would betray Him, so we know He is not talking about an outer cleanliness of the body, but a moral inward washing. John 11:39 We have been washed on the inside, in our hearts. But our bodies too are set apart, holy, for His use.

There's no author of scripture that describes our body as you do - horrid, which means innately offensive or repulsive; inspiring disgust or loathing. I can imagine an engaged couple and the girl tells her fiance: "Now, just to let you know ahead of time, my body is offensive, repulsive, and disgusting." That would go over really well, wouldn't it? NOT! Even the Song of Solomon describes our bodies as quite attractive and beautiful.

Yes, Paul said (Romans 8:24-25), "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" He's referring to his sinful fleshly tendencies, not his physical body. In fact, he answers his own question in the next verse: "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Jesus sets us free from the REAL horrid "member" - our tendency to sin. By the Spirit, we can put to death the (sinful) deeds of the body, NOT the body itself. Romans 8:13 "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we hate our body, it's similar to some of the gnostic teaching, where they said that our bodies are evil. Our bodies are not evil, they are good and can be holy if we walk in the Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Christ is the Way. If his human will is not carnal then, if we conform ourselves to Him, neither will be our human will. In other words, by conforming ourselves to Christ is how our will becomes a free will.

Just to add-

The belief in free will (Hebrew: bechirah chofshit בחירה חפשית, bechirah בחירה) is axiomatic in Jewish thought, and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment, based on the Torah itself: "I [God] have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Free Will and the Purpose of Life
The Hebrew Bible is a story of G‑d’s interaction with man. G‑d rewards those who listen to His will and help perfect His world; He chastises those who disobey and destroy it. The choice to do one or the other is clearly in our hands. “Behold,” G‑d says, “I have placed before you good and evil, life and death. Choose life!”1

Without a belief in free will, none of this would make sense. There could be no instructions, no reward, and no chastisement.

Judaism is replete Judaism is replete with the belief that there is no room for despair. But change is not possible unless we have the autonomy of free will.with the belief that there is no such thing as failure, no room for despair. As low as a person has fallen, as fiercely as his appetite and addictions have taken control of him, he can always turn around and clean up his mess. G‑d shows patience to those who sin, because He believes in the human being and in his capacity to change. He is “a G‑d compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in kindness and faithfulness, extending kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin.”2

But change is not possible unless we have the autonomy of free will. The ability to turn yourself around can come only from within you.

Indeed, without free will there would be no purpose to life. We live meaningful lives through our willful, proactive decisions to care for the world in harmony with the will of its Creator.


Free Will In Genesis
Who has free will and who does not?

Throughout classic Jewish literature, absolute free choice is the domain of G‑d alone.Throughout classic Jewish literature, absolute free choice is the domain of G‑d alone. He chooses that heaven and earth should exist, He chooses their design and He chooses the story they tell.

Human beings are created “in G‑d’s likeness.”3 This means that, like G‑d, we are endowed with the capacity to do as we please—despite what what our Creator would like us to do.4 And indeed, after Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we read that explicitly: G‑d says, “Verily, this human being is unique, that he has his own mind to choose between good and evil.”5

Unlike G‑d, we are limited by the nature of the world G‑d has created. We can’t choose to grow wings and fly, or to change winter into summer.

Neither can we foil—or interrupt for a moment—G‑d’s plan for His creation, or even our personal destiny.6 As Joseph said to his brothers, “You intended me harm. God intended it for good, so as to bring about the present result—the survival of many people.”7

What we can choose is whether to obey the will of our Creator, to ignore it—or even to go beyond it. By doing so, we can choose our role within the story—whether good things happen because of us, or despite us. We can decide how deep, how profound the story will be, and how high it can reach—through good deeds, through prayer, and by turning our lives around.8

In other words, we can make moral choices within G‑d’s story. G‑d’s plans, after all, can unfold in innumerable ways.9 But it is the Creator, not us, who decides what that story is. As Rabbi Chanina, an ancient sage of the Mishnah, taught, “All is in the hands of heaven, except for the awe of heaven.”10

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3909393/jewish/Free-Will.htm#:~:text=of%20Human%20Understanding-,Free%20Will%20and%20the%20Purpose%20of%20Life,-The%20Hebrew%20Bible

 

[Johann]

There's no author of scripture that describes our body as you do - horrid, which means innately offensive or repulsive; inspiring disgust or loathing. I can imagine an engaged couple and the girl tells her fiance: "Now, just to let you know ahead of time, my body is offensive, repulsive, and disgusting." That would go over really well, wouldn't it? NOT! Even the Song of Solomon describes our bodies as quite attractive and beautiful.

Yes, Paul said (Romans 8:24-25), "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" He's referring to his sinful fleshly tendencies, not his physical body. In fact, he answers his own question in the next verse: "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Jesus sets us free from the REAL horrid "member" - our tendency to sin. By the Spirit, we can put to death the (sinful) deeds of the body, NOT the body itself. Romans 8:13 "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we hate our body, it's similar to some of the gnostic teaching, where they said that our bodies are evil. Our bodies are not evil, they are good and can be holy if we walk in the Spirit.

Well said
J.

 

[Johann]

Just to add-

The belief in free will (Hebrew: bechirah chofshit בחירה חפשית, bechirah בחירה) is axiomatic in Jewish thought, and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment, based on the Torah itself: "I [God] have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Free Will and the Purpose of Life
The Hebrew Bible is a story of G‑d’s interaction with man. G‑d rewards those who listen to His will and help perfect His world; He chastises those who disobey and destroy it. The choice to do one or the other is clearly in our hands. “Behold,” G‑d says, “I have placed before you good and evil, life and death. Choose life!”1

Without a belief in free will, none of this would make sense. There could be no instructions, no reward, and no chastisement.

Judaism is replete Judaism is replete with the belief that there is no room for despair. But change is not possible unless we have the autonomy of free will.with the belief that there is no such thing as failure, no room for despair. As low as a person has fallen, as fiercely as his appetite and addictions have taken control of him, he can always turn around and clean up his mess. G‑d shows patience to those who sin, because He believes in the human being and in his capacity to change. He is “a G‑d compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in kindness and faithfulness, extending kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin.”2

But change is not possible unless we have the autonomy of free will. The ability to turn yourself around can come only from within you.

Indeed, without free will there would be no purpose to life. We live meaningful lives through our willful, proactive decisions to care for the world in harmony with the will of its Creator.


Free Will In Genesis
Who has free will and who does not?

Throughout classic Jewish literature, absolute free choice is the domain of G‑d alone.Throughout classic Jewish literature, absolute free choice is the domain of G‑d alone. He chooses that heaven and earth should exist, He chooses their design and He chooses the story they tell.

Human beings are created “in G‑d’s likeness.”3 This means that, like G‑d, we are endowed with the capacity to do as we please—despite what what our Creator would like us to do.4 And indeed, after Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we read that explicitly: G‑d says, “Verily, this human being is unique, that he has his own mind to choose between good and evil.”5

Unlike G‑d, we are limited by the nature of the world G‑d has created. We can’t choose to grow wings and fly, or to change winter into summer.

Neither can we foil—or interrupt for a moment—G‑d’s plan for His creation, or even our personal destiny.6 As Joseph said to his brothers, “You intended me harm. God intended it for good, so as to bring about the present result—the survival of many people.”7

What we can choose is whether to obey the will of our Creator, to ignore it—or even to go beyond it. By doing so, we can choose our role within the story—whether good things happen because of us, or despite us. We can decide how deep, how profound the story will be, and how high it can reach—through good deeds, through prayer, and by turning our lives around.8

In other words, we can make moral choices within G‑d’s story. G‑d’s plans, after all, can unfold in innumerable ways.9 But it is the Creator, not us, who decides what that story is. As Rabbi Chanina, an ancient sage of the Mishnah, taught, “All is in the hands of heaven, except for the awe of heaven.”10

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3909393/jewish/Free-Will.htm#:~:text=of%20Human%20Understanding-,Free%20Will%20and%20the%20Purpose%20of%20Life,-The%20Hebrew%20Bible

See-kind enough to give the free links-

The Problem of Divine Sovereignty, Predestination, Salvation and Human Free Will

 

[Johann]

Calvinism is antithetical to Christology in multiple ways. For example, a book can be written on how Calvinism misrepresent what is Biblically encapsulated for one to be positioned "in Christ" and therefore to be justified, predestined, known by God, elected onto salvation, etc... In this thread, I'd like to concentrate on the popular question concerning man's "free will". Calvinists adamantly scream that there is no such thing as free will. Let's take a moment here and ask ourselves how should we best approach this subject? Should we do what Calvinists do which is to bypass Christology and focus in on their philosophical and rational opinions? Or should we appeal to Christ's Life and see how He handled his human and divine wills? Obviously let's appeal to Christology, which is an afterthought in Calvinist apologetics.

Let's start with Jesus' declaration of freedom that awaits all believers:

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

So since each and everyone of us are composed of mind, heart, and will then all of those components will be set free by the Son of God.

But free in what sense and how does that fit in with the fact that Christ has both a human will and a divine will? In John 6:38, Christ exhibits what it truly means to possess a human free will through the many times he synergistically aligned his human will with his divine will. In similar fashion, we need to align our will to God's will, through God's Grace of course, for us to truly possess the free will to do good.

John 6:38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.

Calvinists, on the other hand disregard Christology and attempt to philosophically reduce man down from human beings to human wills. Our human will is one of many faculties that God has graced us with as humans. We possess faculties of mind, heart, conscience, volition, etc... and each one has its own unquestionable importance. We are human beings, not human willings. As such our will should be placed alongside everything else that makes us human and not to overwhelm what it means to be human.

Ah- but you sit with a problem now
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Freewill?

6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:65 and 15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa. 53:6). God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.

The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in John 12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa. 6:9-13; 29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb. 1:1-3).

PREDESTINATION (CALVINISM) VS. HUMAN FREE WILL (ARMINIANISM)

Titus 2:11 is a balance to other NT passages on election. I thought it might be theologically helpful to provide my commentary notes from Romans 8:29 and chapter 9, as well as Ephesians 1.

I. Romans 8:29 – Paul uses "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before") twice, here and 11:2. In 11:2 it refers to God's covenant love for Israel before time began. Remember that the term "know" in Hebrew related to intimate, personal relationship, not to facts about someone (cf. Gen. 4:1; Jer. 1:5). Here it was included in a chain of eternal events (cf. Rom. 8:29-30). This term was linked with predestination. However, it must be stated that God's foreknowledge is not the basis of election because if that were so, then election would be based on fallen humanity's future response, which would be human performance. This term is also found in Acts 26:5; 1 Pet. 1:2,20 and 2 Pet. 3:17.

A. "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before")

The terms "foreknow" and "predestine" are both compounds with the preposition "before" and, therefore, should be translated "to know before," "to set bounds before," or "mark off before." The definitive passages on predestination in the NT are Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:13-14; and Romans 9. These texts obviously stress that God is sovereign. He is in total control of all things. There is a preset divine plan being worked out in time. However, this plan is not arbitrary or selective. It is based, not only on God's sovereignty and foreknowledge, but on His unchanging character of love, mercy, and undeserved grace. See Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan.

We must be careful of our western (American) individualism or our evangelical zeal coloring this wonderful truth. We must also guard against being polarized into the historical, theological conflicts between Augustine versus Pelegius or Calvinism versus Arminianism.

B. "predestined" (proorizō, "to set the bounds before")

Predestination is not a doctrine meant to limit God's love, grace, and mercy nor to exclude some from the gospel. It is meant to strengthen believers by molding their worldview. God is for all mankind (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God is in control of all things. Who or what can separate us from Him (cf. Rom. 8:31-39)? God views all history as present; humans are time bound. Our perspective and mental abilities are limited. There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will. It is a covenantal structure. This is another example of truth given in dialectical tension. Biblical doctrines are presented from different perspectives. They often appear paradoxical. The truth is a balance between the seemingly opposite pairs. We must not remove the tension by picking one of the truths. We must not isolate any biblical truth into a compartment by itself.

It is also important to add that the goal of election is not only heaven when we die, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15). We were chosen to be "holy and blameless." God chooses to change us so that others may see the change and respond by faith to God in Christ. Predestination is not a personal privilege, but a covenantal responsibility. This is the major truth of the passage. This is the goal of Christianity. Holiness is God's will for every believer. God's election is to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4), not a special standing. The image of God, which was given to man in creation (cf. Gen. 1:26; 5:1,3; 9:6), is to be restored.

C. "conformed to the image of His Son"—God's ultimate goal is the restoration of the image lost in the Fall. Believers are foreordained to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4).



II. Romans 9

A. Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (the other being Eph. 1:3-14), while chapter 10 states humans' free will clearly and repeatedly (cf. "everyone" Rom. 9:4; "whosoever" 9:11,13; "all" 9:12 [twice]). Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true! Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical half-truths. Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelegianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error. Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid.

B. This same truth (found in Rom. 9:23) is stated in Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:4,11. This chapter is the strongest expression of God's sovereignty in the NT. There can be no dispute that God is in total charge of creation and redemption. This great truth should never be softened or diminished. However, it must be balanced with God's choice of covenant as a means of relating to human creation, made in His image. It is surely true that some OT covenants, like Genesis 15, are unconditional and do not relate at all to human response, but other covenants are conditioned on human response (e.g., Eden, Noah, Moses, David). God has a plan of redemption for His creation; no human can affect this plan. God has chosen to allow individuals to participate in His plans. This opportunity for participation is a theological tension between sovereignty (Romans 9) and human free will (Romans 10).

It is not appropriate to select one biblical emphasis and ignore another. There is tension between doctrines because eastern people present truth in dialectical or tension-filled pairs. Doctrines must be held in relationship to other doctrines. Truth is a mosaic of truths.

 

[synergy]

Ah- but you sit with a problem now
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Freewill?

6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him" God always takes the initiative (cf. John 6:65 and 15:16). All spiritual decisions are the result of the wooing of the Spirit, not mankind's religiosity (cf. Isa. 53:6). God's sovereignty and a mandated human response are inseparably linked together by the will and mercy of God. This is the OT concept of covenant.

The balance to this "drawing of God" is found in John 12:32 where Jesus "draws all men to Himself." This drawing reverses the OT pattern of God's people not responding to His prophetic word (examples: Isa. 6:9-13; 29:13; Jeremiah). God now speaks, not through prophets to Israel, but through His Son to all mankind (cf. Heb. 1:1-3).

PREDESTINATION (CALVINISM) VS. HUMAN FREE WILL (ARMINIANISM)

Titus 2:11 is a balance to other NT passages on election. I thought it might be theologically helpful to provide my commentary notes from Romans 8:29 and chapter 9, as well as Ephesians 1.

I. Romans 8:29 – Paul uses "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before") twice, here and 11:2. In 11:2 it refers to God's covenant love for Israel before time began. Remember that the term "know" in Hebrew related to intimate, personal relationship, not to facts about someone (cf. Gen. 4:1; Jer. 1:5). Here it was included in a chain of eternal events (cf. Rom. 8:29-30). This term was linked with predestination. However, it must be stated that God's foreknowledge is not the basis of election because if that were so, then election would be based on fallen humanity's future response, which would be human performance. This term is also found in Acts 26:5; 1 Pet. 1:2,20 and 2 Pet. 3:17.

A. "foreknew" (proginōskō, "to know before")

The terms "foreknow" and "predestine" are both compounds with the preposition "before" and, therefore, should be translated "to know before," "to set bounds before," or "mark off before." The definitive passages on predestination in the NT are Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:13-14; and Romans 9. These texts obviously stress that God is sovereign. He is in total control of all things. There is a preset divine plan being worked out in time. However, this plan is not arbitrary or selective. It is based, not only on God's sovereignty and foreknowledge, but on His unchanging character of love, mercy, and undeserved grace. See Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan.

We must be careful of our western (American) individualism or our evangelical zeal coloring this wonderful truth. We must also guard against being polarized into the historical, theological conflicts between Augustine versus Pelegius or Calvinism versus Arminianism.

B. "predestined" (proorizō, "to set the bounds before")

Predestination is not a doctrine meant to limit God's love, grace, and mercy nor to exclude some from the gospel. It is meant to strengthen believers by molding their worldview. God is for all mankind (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). God is in control of all things. Who or what can separate us from Him (cf. Rom. 8:31-39)? God views all history as present; humans are time bound. Our perspective and mental abilities are limited. There is no contradiction between God's sovereignty and mankind's free will. It is a covenantal structure. This is another example of truth given in dialectical tension. Biblical doctrines are presented from different perspectives. They often appear paradoxical. The truth is a balance between the seemingly opposite pairs. We must not remove the tension by picking one of the truths. We must not isolate any biblical truth into a compartment by itself.

It is also important to add that the goal of election is not only heaven when we die, but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:29-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 2:10; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15). We were chosen to be "holy and blameless." God chooses to change us so that others may see the change and respond by faith to God in Christ. Predestination is not a personal privilege, but a covenantal responsibility. This is the major truth of the passage. This is the goal of Christianity. Holiness is God's will for every believer. God's election is to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4), not a special standing. The image of God, which was given to man in creation (cf. Gen. 1:26; 5:1,3; 9:6), is to be restored.

C. "conformed to the image of His Son"—God's ultimate goal is the restoration of the image lost in the Fall. Believers are foreordained to Christlikeness (cf. Eph. 1:4).



II. Romans 9

A. Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (the other being Eph. 1:3-14), while chapter 10 states humans' free will clearly and repeatedly (cf. "everyone" Rom. 9:4; "whosoever" 9:11,13; "all" 9:12 [twice]). Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true! Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical half-truths. Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelegianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error. Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid.

B. This same truth (found in Rom. 9:23) is stated in Rom. 8:29-30 and Eph. 1:4,11. This chapter is the strongest expression of God's sovereignty in the NT. There can be no dispute that God is in total charge of creation and redemption. This great truth should never be softened or diminished. However, it must be balanced with God's choice of covenant as a means of relating to human creation, made in His image. It is surely true that some OT covenants, like Genesis 15, are unconditional and do not relate at all to human response, but other covenants are conditioned on human response (e.g., Eden, Noah, Moses, David). God has a plan of redemption for His creation; no human can affect this plan. God has chosen to allow individuals to participate in His plans. This opportunity for participation is a theological tension between sovereignty (Romans 9) and human free will (Romans 10).

It is not appropriate to select one biblical emphasis and ignore another. There is tension between doctrines because eastern people present truth in dialectical or tension-filled pairs. Doctrines must be held in relationship to other doctrines. Truth is a mosaic of truths.

Permit me to ask you a question. Do you believe that God chose you in Christ before or after you believed in Christ?

Another very similar question is: did God regenerate you before or after you believed in Christ?

 

[civic]

Permit me to ask you a question. Do you believe that God chose you in Christ before or after you believed in Christ?

Another very similar question is: did God regenerate you before or after you believed in Christ?

@Johann I didn't know if you had the chance yet to see this post. Thanks !

 

[Johann]

Permit me to ask you a question. Do you believe that God chose you in Christ before or after you believed in Christ?

Another very similar question is: did God regenerate you before or after you believed in Christ?

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who having blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly spheres in Christ:
Eph 1:4 Even as He hath chose out us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame in His sight in love:
Eph 1:5 Having foreordained us [in love] unto the placing us as a son by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His desire,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, which He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1. Chosen even before I believed.

Eph 1:13 In Whom ye were made an inheritance also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom ye also on believing were sealed with the Holy Spirit [gift] of the promise,
Eph 1:14 (Which is a pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the purchased possession), unto the praise of His glory.

2. Regenerated at the moment of believing-Aorist Tense.

J.

 

[Wrangler]

Any defenders of Calvinism here?

 

[civic]

Any defenders of Calvinism here?

Yes there are some and if you know of others please invite them. I promise to be nice.

 

[dwight92070]

@Johann I didn't know if you had the chance yet to see this post. Thanks !

I believe God chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew even before Creation who would follow Him and who would not follow Him. That's His foreknowledge. But He did NOT MAKE US follow Him - He gave us the freedom to choose Him or not. I was regenerated in September 1970, at the age of 21, when for the first time, I read through the four gospels. It actually happened very quickly. I had only read up to Matthew 5:6 - "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." and I knew in my heart that Jesus was saying to me: "You shall be saved (or born again)" and I haven't doubted it since then. So my regeneration took place at the same time as I first believed in Jesus. I was blown away by reading His words! Shaken in my heart! It was as if the Holy Spirit just fell on me.

Since that time, I know exactly what Peter means when he says in 1 Peter 1:23: " ... for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, the living and enduring word of God." I see now that the gospel IS the story of Jesus' life and His teachings - THAT, coupled with my faith, saved me. I grew up going to church twice a week, sometimes more. The preacher spoke of the necessity of being born again, or we would end up in hell. I was scared of that as a kid, so I remember praying with my mom to be saved. Nothing changed and nothing happened. I went to Vacation Bible School every summer. But NOBODY, not the pastor, not the Sunday school teachers, not the youth leaders, not the Vacation Bible teachers, told us how critical it is to READ THE GOSPELS!

If someone asks me today, "How do you get born again?", my response will be: "Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John". I would NOT tell them: "Repeat this prayer after me, if you believe it in your heart." It's the word of God, and specifically the GOSPEL OF JESUS that saves, NOT a prayer! I would NOT tell them to start reading in Genesis. THAT WILL NOT SAVE THEM!

Mark 1:14-15 " ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.' Notice Mark 1:1 says: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." So the gospel of Jesus Christ IS the gospel of God and the preaching of the kingdom of God.

Did you notice that the Deity of Jesus is referred to there? The gospel of Jesus = the gospel of God, because Jesus IS God.

 

[civic]

I believe God chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew even before Creation who would follow Him and who would not follow Him. That's His foreknowledge. But He did NOT MAKE US follow Him - He gave us the freedom to choose Him or not. I was regenerated in September 1970, at the age of 21, when for the first time, I read through the four gospels. It actually happened very quickly. I had only read up to Matthew 5:6 - "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." and I knew in my heart that Jesus was saying to me: "You shall be saved (or born again)" and I haven't doubted it since then. So my regeneration took place at the same time as I first believed in Jesus. I was blown away by reading His words! Shaken in my heart! It was as if the Holy Spirit just fell on me.

Since that time, I know exactly what Peter means when he says in 1 Peter 1:23: " ... for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, the living and enduring word of God." I see now that the gospel IS the story of Jesus' life and His teachings - THAT, coupled with my faith, saved me. I grew up going to church twice a week, sometimes more. The preacher spoke of the necessity of being born again, or we would end up in hell. I was scared of that as a kid, so I remember praying with my mom to be saved. Nothing changed and nothing happened. I went to Vacation Bible School every summer. But NOBODY, not the pastor, not the Sunday school teachers, not the youth leaders, not the Vacation Bible teachers, told us how critical it is to READ THE GOSPELS!

If someone asks me today, "How do you get born again?", my response will be: "Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John". I would NOT tell them: "Repeat this prayer after me, if you believe it in your heart." It's the word of God, and specifically the GOSPEL OF JESUS that saves, NOT a prayer! I would NOT tell them to start reading in Genesis. THAT WILL NOT SAVE THEM!

Mark 1:14-15 " ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.' Notice Mark 1:1 says: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." So the gospel of Jesus Christ IS the gospel of God and the preaching of the kingdom of God.

Did you notice that the Deity of Jesus is referred to there? The gospel of Jesus = the gospel of God, because Jesus IS God.

Thanks for sharing . You are my senior in the Lord by 10 years and in the flesh by 10.

 

[synergy]

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who having blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly spheres in Christ:
Eph 1:4 Even as He hath chose out us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame in His sight in love:
Eph 1:5 Having foreordained us [in love] unto the placing us as a son by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His desire,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, which He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

1. Chosen even before I believed.

Eph 1:13 In Whom ye were made an inheritance also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom ye also on believing were sealed with the Holy Spirit [gift] of the promise,
Eph 1:14 (Which is a pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the purchased possession), unto the praise of His glory.

2. Regenerated at the moment of believing-Aorist Tense.

J.

When "God chose us in Him"(Eph 1:4), the following is effected:

(2 Co 5:17) So that if any one is in Christ, that one is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.

So according to your "chosen even before I believed" statement, are you saying that all the above are yours before you believed in Christ?