Calvinism : Fictional Characters

[praise_yeshua]

There's no point. We've quoted the section about the potter and the clay, etc., so many times, and you never interpret it the way it plainly reads.

Like I said I can read.

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You're are actually creating the problem that Paul is talking about in Romans 9:20.

The Scripture is making a logical argument that there is no reply to God........relative to "God has made me such"......

I recommend you pay attention to the phrase "Rom 9:21 of the same lump.... The lump is identical. It is the equality of man. You're the one claiming privilege OVER another. You are claiming you are a different lump.....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Like I said I can read.

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You're are actually creating the problem that Paul is talking about in Romans 9:20.

The Scripture is making a logical argument that there is no reply to God........relative to "God has made me such"......

I recommend you pay attention to the phrase "Rom 9:21 of the same lump.... The lump is identical. It is the equality of man. You're the one claiming privilege OVER another. You are claiming you are a different lump.....

He makes out of the same lump two types of pots. Some for glory, and some fitted for destruction. Same as Prov 16:4.

 

[TomL]

He makes out of the same lump two types of pots. Some for glory, and some fitted for destruction. Same as Prov 16:4.

2 Timothy 2:20 (ESV) — 20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

Nope

God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson



fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s

The fact of his long suffering is a refutation of the idea he fitted them for destruction by unconditional decree

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

2 Timothy 2:20 (ESV) — 20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable.

Nope

God choosing - god willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson



fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s

The fact of his long suffering is a refutation of the idea he fitted them for destruction by unconditional decree

You see? I told you there was no point in posting the scripture. Free-willers always have a different interpretation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He makes out of the same lump two types of pots. Some for glory, and some fitted for destruction. Same as Prov 16:4.

Did Jesus die for the singular lump?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You see? I told you there was no point in posting the scripture. Free-willers always have a different interpretation.

What will be... Will be. If I believed as you do, I'd spend the rest of my life doing something else.

 

[Presby02]

Not so hard where it does a reversal of what 1 + 1 means. That's what Calvinism does. It says one things and seeks to do a reversal of what they just said. With all due respect the Westminster Confession seeks to do that very thing.

Does anyone know what this means?

 

[Rockson]

He makes out of the same lump two types of pots. Some for glory, and some fitted for destruction. Same as Prov 16:4.

Aren't you forgetting what Jerimiah says about things like this? Jerimiah 18: 6,23 where he talks to the clay and let's the living clay decide by their actions what type of vessel they'll be? Or maybe you can show me in Jeremiah where what he sees about the actions they choose to do won't be the determining factor of their fate.....AND NOT GOD'S ORDAINED WILL.

 

[Rockson]

Does anyone know what this means?

Subject being that Calvinism does a reversal on what it says,

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.....

That's really all you need to know about it. If you're going to say he ORDAINS everything then that's what they've said. Now they try to modify the statement and soften the blow to make it seem less extreme by asserting that no violence is done to the will of creatures but you should consider that's just window dressing nonsense.

So to make it doubly clear here's the reversal. The Westminister Confession God's Eternal Decrees....Calvinism claims God ordains whatsoever comes to pass and then does a reversal by saying nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures in so doing this. You can't start off by saying God is doing it and then turn around and then claim he isn't or hasn't.

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[e v e]

I agree with your sources. LOL Especially the one you borrowed. Your the one who now apparently has a issue with it or did not actually read it.

Civics premise: Fatalism and determinism are synonymous terms.

His own source would apparently disagree.

Fatalism is helplessness and resignation in the face of a foreign and opaque force (the evil realm) which hates God.

this corrupt physical reality we are in is based on force, not love... and on causality-- a sociopathic satanic type of nature, where everything dies... affecting reality since the fall...

the pagan philosophers documented the fallen reality as the only reality, hence their despair... they did not know about God only about the fallen angels. Their texts though corrupt do correctly document those beings as evil and capricious.

determinism, while not an exact synonym is closely associated in this context of discussion because the force that began affecting souls after the fall and in this context of discussion, was not God, and it led to hopelessness and emptiness... and depravity = the evil realm oppressing the soul.

Calvin wrongly equated depravity with the soul and not with the evil oppressing the soul. There are had many other errors that brought him to that conclusion.

 

[e v e]

God wants Sons , not zombies.

Sons that Rule with Christ.

 

[e v e]

Nature here had no signature and does not love.

It kills indiscriminately.

It is death - just as God warned...

 

[TomL]

You see? I told you there was no point in posting the scripture. Free-willers always have a different interpretation.

The difference is I can harmonize my view with all scripture because I allow scripture to define itself.

You allow your theology to define scripture, isolating it from its context near and far

 

[civic]

You see? I told you there was no point in posting the scripture. Free-willers always have a different interpretation.

Yet God is a free willer- thanks for the compliment. Its God-like to exercise our free will. man was made in the image and likeness of His Creator/ God.

 

[Presby02]

Yet God is a free willer- thanks for the compliment. Its God-like to exercise our free will. man was made in the image and likeness of His Creator/ God.

So God is free to lie then?

 

[civic]

So God is free to lie then?

thats your caricature and way to avoid all the scriptures I posted and avoid dealing with them.

this is an example of the loaded question fallacy and the exact same response many use with "are you still beating your wife" ?

 

[Presby02]

thats your caricature and way to avoid all the scriptures I posted and avoid dealing with them.

this is an example of the loaded question fallacy and the exact same response many use with "are you still beating your wife" ?

Notice no answer folks. Let's try again. Is God free to lie?

 

[civic]

Notice no answer folks. Let's try again. Is God free to lie?

try addressing all the scriptures I posted instead of throwing out open theism as a reply.

I will gladly answer yours when you return the courtesy.

BTY I have heard every objection against God from atheists, unbelievers, gnostics, unorthodox religions like JW's, agnostics. I've been doing apologetics for decades and can defend Gods character against them all, including reformers.

 

[TomL]

So God is free to lie then?

So you imagine an inability to lie means God is not free?

 

[Presby02]

So you imagine an inability to lie means God is not free?

Is He free to lie? If you have the ability why doesnt He? He has free will correct? The dodging of the question is quite telling.