Calvinism : Fictional Characters

One man's junk is another man's treasure.

Proverbs 16:4: “The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”

Hey brother. I can change your mind completely on this with a short conversation.

Proverbs 16 is entirely different in the LXX. In fact the DSS does not have this verse. It doesn't exist.

It would do students of the Scriptures good to embrace the Greek OT and not the modern editions that contain the "rebuilt" Hebrew OT from the 10th century.

A simple discuss about Proverbs and manuscript history will change your mind here.
 
One thing is certainly true. If you can ever get a Calvinist to accept the clear definition of theological terms, they will always lose the argument.

This is a true story. A "leader" at bible.org once asked me to assist in rewriting wikipedia articles to favor their position......

Talk about "baked in".....
That most certainly cannot be true because Calvinist definitely have a clear definition of theological terms. As a matter of fact, Calvinist's wrote the book on clear definition of theological terms.

Calvinism begins with the conviction that God is an objective reality outside ourselves. We do not make him what he is by thinking a certain way about him. As Francis Schaefer said, he is the God who is there. We don’t make him. He makes us. We don’t decide what he is going to be like. He decides what we are going to be like. He created the universe, and it has the meaning he gives it, not the meaning we give it.
 
That most certainly cannot be true because Calvinist definitely have a clear definition of theological terms. As a matter of fact, Calvinist's wrote the book on clear definition of theological terms.

Calvin was a novice. A young man not even 30 years old when he wrote most all of his writings. He didn't define anything.

Calvinism begins with the conviction that God is an objective reality outside ourselves. We do not make him what he is by thinking a certain way about him. As Francis Schaefer said, he is the God who is there. We don’t make him. He makes us. We don’t decide what he is going to be like. He decides what we are going to be like. He created the universe, and it has the meaning he gives it, not the meaning we give it.

This thought existed long before Calvin. We read this in the very name of God... I AM.... I AM that I AM.

The Scriptures declare this. Not Calvin. You're conflating the "Master Data" for the source of Truth.
 
Hey brother. I can change your mind completely on this with a short conversation.

Proverbs 16 is entirely different in the LXX. In fact the DSS does not have this verse. It doesn't exist.

It would do students of the Scriptures good to embrace the Greek OT and not the modern editions that contain the "rebuilt" Hebrew OT from the 10th century.

A simple discuss about Proverbs and manuscript history will change your mind here.
I honestly appreciate your concern and I know you mean well. I'm also sure that you know what you're referring to. But I just can't go for either removing Verses from the Bible or tearing Pages out of the Bible. For me and I mean just for me and the way I see it. That can lead to places I don't want to go such as a false religious cults. I know you're not advocating that you're only pointing something out. like I said I appreciate it.
 
I honestly appreciate your concern and I know you mean well. I'm also sure that you know what you're referring to. But I just can't go for either removing Verses from the Bible or tearing Pages out of the Bible. For me and I mean just for me and the way I see it. That can lead to places I don't want to go such as a false religious cults. I know you're not advocating that you're only pointing something out. like I said I appreciate it.

Brother, then you should be offended that someone added it hundreds of years ago.
 
Here's a boatload of translations of Proverbs 16:4 that all say pretty much the same thing just using different wording. But you're saying it shouldn't be there at all that someone added to it. I find it hard to believe that all those translators miss that one. I also Googled it and couldn't find anything. So it should be interesting to see how you come to your conclusion.

 
A few verses in proverbs (Including 16:4) are missing in the Septuagint. Some scholars suggest it was because they "Hellenized" the Hebrew, and certain concepts didn't carry over well.
 
The strangeness of Calvinism really come down to this.

It can be akin to God to being like an author of a fiction book. A book has many characters in it human personalities but absolutely EVERYTHING is ordained by the author. The WCT says this,

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.....

That's really all you need to know about it. If you're going to say he ORDAINS everything then that's what they've said. Now they try to modify the statement and soften the blow to make it seem less extreme by asserting that no violence is done to the will of creatures but you should consider that's just window dressing nonsense. If God ordains EVERYTHING then he ordains everything. If they don't want to hold to that then they shouldn't therefore say it.

Thing about an author ordaining the fate of his fictional characters......none of them are real. There's no injustice done to them for they're not even a life entity with feelings, passions and needs. Real human beings however have all of those things. So Calvinism wants you to buy into a belief that the God who calls himself LOVE could be so unfair and unjust to his creation to do this? Sorry but the philosophy they have takes you down a dead end and leave you there. Consider that all rational reasonable thought is thrown out the window.


But it does make a great marketing strategy for this world's religious businesses if a man is convinced that if he adopts a certain religious sect, and attends their particular manmade shrine of worship, they are predestined to life forever in paradise and nothing they do will change that. And it only costs 10%. It is truly a seductive religious philosophy, as prophesied. But as you point out, if a man studies the Scriptures for themselves, they find it is just another myth, like so many which exists in the garden God placed us in.

Like the one that God had compassion on Israel in Egypt, and sent Moses to bring them out. And did all manner of great and powerful works to show them who HE is. And "many" trusted Him enough to leave Egypt with Him, only to have Him place on their necks a Yoke of bondage so egregious, so many, so unjust that is was impossible for men to obey Him. And yet HE lied to them by telling them they could walk in His Ways, and when they didn't, HE slaughtered them by the thousands. He was so bad His Son had to come and save mankind from this God and His Laws. This is the version without lipstick that I too, like you regarding Calvinism, have come to realize is another myth.

Truly there are "many" myths and Philosophies of men that we are warned to "beware of", and to "Take heed" of the many "Christians" who promote them. Thankfully we have the Armor of God to "put on" if we trust Him, and the Word of God which is the "Sword of the Lord" to rightly divide Myth for truth.

One down, many more religious philosophies of men to go.

Great Post Rockson. Good for you!
 
Okay I admire your persistence, Show me what you got. Show me how and who added what to the Bible and why.

As previously mentioned,

The Greek OT the LXX has its origin hundreds years before the birth of Christ. The Greek OT was necessary because of the sins of Israel and the abandonment of "Biblical/Paleo Hebrew" due the Israel being scattered throughout the world. Jews translated the Torah and eventually the entire OT into Greek. These derivative works are the oldest and most accurate sources relative the OT that survive today (extant). The Greek OT is what "drove" the explosion of Christianity throughout the known world. The "layman" could read the "Scriptures" in the Greek language and learn of God. The Greek OT is what those at "Berea" "searched".

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Notice the appeal to Greeks......

We have the Greek NT because of the Greek OT. The overwhelming majority of quotes in the NT come from the Greek OT.

Men did not have to learn paleo Hebrew to know the Scriptures. The apostles used the LXX. The LXX was the standard for Scriptures for both Jew and Greeks until Jerome sought to create a new Latin translation (there were already what is now considered "Old Latin" manuscripts available. Jerome believed that the few manuscripts he had in Hebrew "honored" Christ more than the LXX. (Just an excuse. Not a reason.) In fact, contrary to popular belief. Jerome never completed the Yulgate. He couldn't. He didn't have and could not find manuscripts/scrolls in Hebrew for much of Proverbs and Psalms. He eventually and another. used the LXX as the source to "fill in the gaps". There is NO copy of the original work of the Vulgate. Zero. In fact, some question if there ever really was a completed copy. The Vulgate wasn't standardized (Latin manuscripts vary up until the 10th century as well.

Now to Hebrew sources. There is no meaningful evidence of the complete Hebrew OT before the 10th century in the MT (Masoretic Text). The DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) only contain a fragmented assortment of text that vary greatly between LXX sources and other Hebrew origin manuscripts. There are at least 3 source of Hebrew manuscripts extant in the DSS. The LXX, the MT and another source that doesn't match either the LXX or the MT. Some say there are 4 or 5 "streams" Hebrew texts in the DSS.

It is also interesting that the DSS contain non canonical writings from various sources. In other words the "canon" of the OT accepted by the MT and modern Judaism was not the canon of the Essenes. There have been various sects Jews that disagreed with one another for thousands of years. Even now, there are factions that vary significantly from one another. ( we do too).

Ultimately, someone made a choice for YOU. In the Bible you prefer today. You're basing your belief upon a verse that is not found in the LXX nor the DSS. It "magically" appeared in the MT and possibly some late Latin editions.
 
Here's a boatload of translations of Proverbs 16:4 that all say pretty much the same thing just using different wording. But you're saying it shouldn't be there at all that someone added to it. I find it hard to believe that all those translators miss that one. I also Googled it and couldn't find anything. So it should be interesting to see how you come to your conclusion.


Okay. You went out and began searching a subject that you're not well versed in. There is no reason to accept the first thing you find that confirms your inclination. Remember what Calvinism teachings about inclinations.... :)

I responded to you.
 
Last edited:
One man's junk is another man's treasure.
Sure. But I know of a case many years ago of a person on heavy drugs and they jumped off a building believing they could fly. To him that was a treasure of his way of thinking. He learned the hard way though how his thinking was in error. Among rational humen beings who insist and demand that words have to make coherent sense they WILL reject an idea that one party could ordain everything with no option for any other action and yet claim the other had free will. Truly if one embraces such a contradictory concept they stand the chance of their minds loosing touch with reality. Nothing absolutely nothing means anything anymore.
 
That most certainly cannot be true because Calvinist definitely have a clear definition of theological terms. As a matter of fact, Calvinist's wrote the book on clear definition of theological terms.

Calvinism begins with the conviction that God is an objective reality outside ourselves. We do not make him what he is by thinking a certain way about him. As Francis Schaefer said, he is the God who is there. We don’t make him. He makes us. We don’t decide what he is going to be like. He decides what we are going to be like. He created the universe, and it has the meaning he gives it, not the meaning we give it.
Well said.
 
Okay that's interesting thanks for letting me know. I couldn't find anything on it. Well it's in my Bible So it works for me. I'm not tearing that page out.;)

You desperately want to keep it..... right? It is essential to what you believe. That is why you're keeping it with such a short effort to know the Truth.

That is what most people do.
 
Back
Top Bottom