The grand illusion by the band styx.
Calvinism : Fictional Characters
- Thread starter Rockson
- Start date
God has already shown men who HE will have mercy on, has HE not?
Ex. 20: 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Has God also not shown us who is fitted for destruction?
Deut. 30: 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
This is the Gospel of Christ, Yes?
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom. 9: 18 Therefore hath he mercy "on whom he will have mercy", and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, "O man", who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Will I call God a liar? Has He not told me "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."
Did HE not declare to me;
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Shall I tell God HE created me without the capacity to make this choice? Why were the Law and Prophets written in the first place? Was it not written so that we wouldn't lust after the same things they lusted after? Didn't the things that happened to Pharoah and Caleb, happen for "OUR" admonition, upon whom the ends of the world has come? Does God not have the power to create these examples for our admonition, so that we will "repent, turn to God and bring forth works worthy of repentance"?
Rom. 9: 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And "that he might make known" the riches of his glory "on the vessels of mercy", which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Make known to who?
1 Peter 1: 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
OK, so now what?
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And why is this?
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The inability to lie is relative to the Character of God. God's willful Character. Character is the cornerstone of conscious volition.
The Calvinist theology is about as deep as a kiddy pool with a hole in the bottom.
You punted on the question
So you imagine an inability to lie means God is not free?
I am not as Holy as God
Lying is not a strength and indicates a lack
As you punted on mine. If God's will is free is He free to lie? Or His will bound to His character?
Ahhh, we agree on something. His will is bound by His character.
No he is not free to lie as it is contrary to his holy character
now deal with the question you avoided
Because he is not free to lie, are you going to claim he lacks free will?
Adherent
Member
God does not need to lie. What possible reason or motive would God have to lie?
Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." Romans 3:4
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Psalms 51:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." Romans 3:4
Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Psalms 51:4
Rockson
Well-known member
Yeah but one's of your persuasion seem to even admit they don't have a clue as to just what the character of God is. I've pointed out LOVE scripture what God has said we're to act seek to carry out but they claim they're not sure the same can ever apply to God. So how can YOU say God is bound by anything? Calvinistic theology therefore has it's advocates cut loose and drifting aimlessly without a compass or a sense of direction.
His will is bound by His divine nature. It's free within the bounds of that nature.
So again I ask is God free to lie? Is He morally capable of doing so? Simple yes or no answer. The answer should be rather obvious.
civic
Well-known member
And His character is good, love etc...... the fruit of the spirit is the character of God in man.
Its who God is within His own Being.
God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:19 tells us.
We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.
God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.
Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.
Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.
God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.
The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.
What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.
This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:
“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.
Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.
The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.
Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.
In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “
conclusion: God can do anything and everything is what sovereignty means by definition. God will only do what is loving and what is righteousness. Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love. God being love is foundational to Gods nature, character, the gospel and the entire purpose for Christs 1st Coming. John 3:16. God rules by His love.
hope this helps !!!
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Great. It really does address the topic at hand. Is God morally free to lie?And His character is good, love etc...... the fruit of the spirit is the character of God in man.
Its who God is within His own Being.
civic
Well-known member
God cannot lie. God is truth, holy, without sin.
Is lying a sin ?
Also I added to my previous post and even quoted a renowm Calvinist theologian who agrees with me
So His will is not free to lie. He is not morally capable of lying. Was that so hard?God cannot lie. God is truth, holy, without sin.
Is lying a sin ?
Also I added to my previous post and even quoted a renowm Calvinist theologian who agrees with me
civic
Well-known member
do you disagree with me and Dr Kuyper the Calvinist theologian in post 172 ?
Cyrus
Active member
civic
Well-known member
Amen
We agree. Why do you persist? Just want to argue?
civic
Well-known member
Because it’s foundational and how I can disprove PSA and TULIP.
Thanks for admiring my presuppositions about Gods nature and character are correct and biblical.
