Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

[civic]

free and externally controlled at the same time?

it's an oxymoron

yes they are in a GIANT PICKLE lol.

 

[brightfame52]

That is not legible but again, unbelievers are not his sheep.

Unconditional election to salvation is not a biblical doctrine.

Only them who have eternal life in them believe. Jesus already gave them eternal life so that they believe Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee[by Faith] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[brightfame52]

Please reread it again...

"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it."

This means man's freedom to make decisions is according to God's sovereignty. When man chooses to do something, they are fulfilling the sovereign will of God to make that decision. God does fatalistically make our decisions, but that we are free to make them.

God made the decision to save man from our own decisions to sin and rebel against Him. This is why repentance is required. One must repent, have a change of mind about sinning and rebelling against God and submit themselves to live as He desires not as they desire. The indictment of God is summarized very well by the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:10-18.

In essence. the message from God to mankind is to repent-stop and think about what I have said, and have a change of mind to living as though you are your master and not me. Make the decision to live in servitude to me, and submit yourself to me by believing my Son died for your sins and arose to give you eternal life, and I will forgive your sins and give you a new life joined with me forever.

The preached or witnessed message of God should always be led with repent. Without repentance, which is a carefully thought out and sincere change of mind, one will not be saved. One must decide to either continue to rebel and live like they want, or listen to God's truth that He is the Master and we are His bond servants and we must submit our heart to Him.

Anyone who professes Jesus Christ and continues to sin as normal is not saved. "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

To continue on living in sin-disobedience is to reject God's command, for God "commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained"

Jesus our Lord said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Luk 13:34)

He also said, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (Joh 5:39-40)

Willingness to submit to God is associated with repentance. If you are not willing, you are not penitent. If you are willing, you are penitent. The Jews of our Lord's day were not penitent. They rejected God's way of being right before Him and tried to establish their own way (Rom 10:1-4, 21).

God does not relinquish any of His sovereignty in salvation. He is the One who set the parameters of His salvation, and in accordance to those parameters that He set, any man who repents and believes in His Son Jesus Christ will be forgiven and joined with Him forever. You misunderstand that God from His sovereignty requires His servants to listen to Him and obey, or they can reject His message and die. God prefers man listen and live, for He does not delight when the wicked perish...."'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways!"

God is sovereign, and from His sovereignty, God established the parameters that man must repent from their sins, believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and from that faith call out to be saved. God does not do any of the three parameters listed. It is required by God upon man to repent, believe, and call out.

God Bless

Again:

This promotes Salvation by man, mans choice makes the difference for salvation and not Gods. God relinquishes His Sovereignty in Salvation to mans free choice !

 

[TomL]

Only them who have eternal life in them believe. Jesus already gave them eternal life so that they believe Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee[by Faith] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Um only those who believe have eternal life

Faith precedes the possession of eternal life.

Further, the verse you quote affirms that.

 

[TomL]

yes they are in a GIANT PICKLE lol.

It's Doublespeak

 

[civic]

It's Doublespeak

Yep

 

[TomL]

Except Compatibilism is not contradictory. I hear the claim a lot but unfortunately the evidence is non existent.

Of course it is. An externally determined will is not a free will

 

[civic]

Of course it is. An externally determined will is not a free will

Yep it’s an obvious De Nile

 

[Joe]

Again:

This promotes Salvation by man, mans choice makes the difference for salvation and not Gods. God relinquishes His Sovereignty in Salvation to mans free choice !

No, it does not. God chose to save anyone who repents, believes, and calls out to be saved....you're simply saying this is not true

So, as always with this topic we go right to the heart of the matter. Did God repent, believe, and call out for you? If not, then you did. Guess what? That means you were responsible by God's sovereignty to respond and receive His salvation.

And replying back with something like, God regenerated me and because of Him doing that I did what was required to be saved. Or God gave me the gift of faith; therefore, I had no choice put to believe....We call this automation. You had no choice but automatically believed.

And I'm going to say, you as a man still were responsible to repent, believe, and call out no matter what influences you did so. You did it and not God.

So, now we are right back at the beginning. God in His sovereignty established the parameters that man must repent from their sins, believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and from that faith call out to be saved. God does not do any of the three parameters listed. It is required by God upon man to repent, believe, and call out.

And please don't use the rebuttal that man gets God's glory, for God gets all the glory for providing salvation and commanding mankind to repent. He established the parameters and when a person obeys, God is glorified for He is the One who provides salvation, offers it, and is glorified by the recipient for saving them.

The only thing anyone can claim is God is true to His Word; that anyone who repents, and believes, and calls out from that belief is forgiven and receives the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing He is good on the remainder of His promises.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

Um only those who believe have eternal life

Faith precedes the possession of eternal life.

Further, the verse you quote affirms that.

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

[brightfame52]

No, it does not. God chose to save anyone who repents, believes, and calls out to be saved....you're simply saying this is not true

So, as always with this topic we go right to the heart of the matter. Did God repent, believe, and call out for you? If not, then you did. Guess what? That means you were responsible by God's sovereignty to respond and receive His salvation.

And replying back with something like, God regenerated me and because of Him doing that I did what was required to be saved. Or God gave me the gift of faith; therefore, I had no choice put to believe....We call this automation. You had no choice but automatically believed.

And I'm going to say, you as a man still were responsible to repent, believe, and call out no matter what influences you did so. You did it and not God.

So, now we are right back at the beginning. God in His sovereignty established the parameters that man must repent from their sins, believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and from that faith call out to be saved. God does not do any of the three parameters listed. It is required by God upon man to repent, believe, and call out.

And please don't use the rebuttal that man gets God's glory, for God gets all the glory for providing salvation and commanding mankind to repent. He established the parameters and when a person obeys, God is glorified for He is the One who provides salvation, offers it, and is glorified by the recipient for saving them.

The only thing anyone can claim is God is true to His Word; that anyone who repents, and believes, and calls out from that belief is forgiven and receives the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing He is good on the remainder of His promises.

God Bless

Again:

This promotes Salvation by man, mans choice makes the difference for salvation and not Gods Choice. God relinquishes His Sovereignty in Salvation to mans free choice !

 

[TomL]

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Um only those who believe have eternal life

Faith precedes the possession of eternal life.

Further, the verse you quote affirms that.

 

[Joe]

Again:

This promotes Salvation by man, mans choice makes the difference for salvation and not Gods Choice. God relinquishes His Sovereignty in Salvation to mans free choice !

Again,

No, it does not. God chose to save anyone who repents, believes, and calls out to be saved....you're simply saying this is not true.
Did God repent, believe, and call out for you? If not, then you did. Guess what? That means you were responsible by God's sovereignty to respond and receive His salvation.

You can have the last reply, unless of course you reply back with an answer to the conundrum you've gotten yourself into as pointed out above. And then I will engage in a meaningful dialogue with you.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

Um only those who believe have eternal life

Faith precedes the possession of eternal life.

Further, the verse you quote affirms that.

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

 

[brightfame52]

Again,

No, it does not. God chose to save anyone who repents, believes, and calls out to be saved....you're simply saying this is not true.
Did God repent, believe, and call out for you? If not, then you did. Guess what? That means you were responsible by God's sovereignty to respond and receive His salvation.

You can have the last reply, unless of course you reply back with an answer to the conundrum you've gotten yourself into as pointed out above. And then I will engage in a meaningful dialogue with you.

God Bless

Again:

This promotes Salvation by man, mans choice makes the difference for salvation and not Gods Choice. God relinquishes His Sovereignty in Salvation to mans free choice !

 

[TomL]

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

Nope life is proof of having believed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope life is proof of having believed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[TomL]

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Nope life is proof of having believed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Note 1John 5:1 does not state one believes Jesus is the Christ because he was born again

BTW you ignored context

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope life is proof of having believed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Note 1John 5:1 does not state one believes Jesus is the Christ because he was born again

BTW you ignored context

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[TomL]

Only those who have been given eternal life believe. Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life

1 Jn 5:1

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Nope life is proof of having believed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Note 1John 5:1 does not state one believes Jesus is the Christ because he was born again

BTW you ignored context

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.