Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

[civic]

His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save the whole world. Most of the world rejected being saved.

Personally I think it is very strange that you think either (1) He didn't want to save the whole world or (2) He didn't have the sufficient power to save the whole world.

Exactly

 

[Jim]

Oh yes it is, God sent Him to save that which as Lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So in seeking the lost, He couldn't find all those that were lost? Strange don't you think?

 

[brightfame52]

So in seeking the lost, He couldn't find all those that were lost? Strange don't you think?

What are you talking about ? He sought and found all that was lost, they are all saved by Him. So what are you talking about ?

 

[Presby02]

His atonement made provision for everyone. So He accomplished what He set out to do with His death, burial and resurrection. We call it the gospel which must be believed and received to have any affect for anyone. Once again provision was made for everyone.

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Sorry, nothing like that in John 12. Parroting the company line is not helping.

It says He came to save the world. Did He or didn't He?

 

[civic]

Sorry, nothing like that in John 12. Parroting the company line is not helping.

It says He came to save the world. Did He or didn't He?

quote the verse you are ripping out of context

 

[TomL]

John 12:47. He did not come to judge but to save the world. Does He save the world? All who have ever lived?

Saved is in the subjunctive mood. This is the mood of possibility

It is not an indicative statement

 

[brightfame52]

He did His part in saving the whole world. Nothing He did has ever kept anyone from being saved.

So then His Part wasnt enough to save the whole world He came to save, correct ?

 

[TibiasDad]

Nobody makes a choice without external factors or prior events.

But those factors do not necessitate a particular choice! The human will chooses, it is not controlled. Sin, in the natural man, bends us towards our own desires, but the choice of man in any given situation is not precluded from choosing otherwise. In fact, every choice is an otherwise choice, for it could have been something else.

The story of Israel in the OT demonstrates that the power of influence is instrumental in our choices, but not decisive. God, the greatest influence possible, continually sought Israel’s repentance, but was rejected.

God is the greatest external factor possible, yet we choose against him for something else. So this means that either we can choose between options, regardless of the force of influence, or the force of sinful influences are greater than God’s influence.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Saved is in the subjunctive mood. This is the mood of possibility

It is not an indicative statement

Precisely! The mood of potential and probability. The only thing necessary for salvation is belief; God has done everything else so the possibility, the potential to save the world is actual if we believe!


Doug

 

[TomL]

Precisely! The mood of potential and probability. The only thing necessary for salvation is belief; God has done everything else so the possibility, the potential to save the world is actual if we believe!


Doug

Yes and amen

Now if only the Calvinist will believe scripture.

 

[Jim]

So then His Part wasnt enough to save the whole world He came to save, correct ?

Faith is required in the one to be saved.

Saved by grace through faith -- Grace is Jesus' (God's) part; faith is our part. His part is complete and perfect and necessary to save the whole world. It is not sufficient, however, because faith is needed in the one to be saved.

 

[Presby02]

But those factors do not necessitate a particular choice! The human will chooses, it is not controlled. Sin, in the natural man, bends us towards our own desires, but the choice of man in any given situation is not precluded from choosing otherwise. In fact, every choice is an otherwise choice, for it could have been something else.

The story of Israel in the OT demonstrates that the power of influence is instrumental in our choices, but not decisive. God, the greatest influence possible, continually sought Israel’s repentance, but was rejected.

God is the greatest external factor possible, yet we choose against him for something else. So this means that either we can choose between options, regardless of the force of influence, or the force of sinful influences are greater than God’s influence.


Doug

The human will is controlled by your greatest desire when you actually choose.

I agree for the most part. This does not preclude determinism. Choices are determined yet free from coercion or force. The Bibles has many examples. The Bible itself is the best example. "God's word". Yet written by fallible human authors. FREELY

 

[Presby02]

quote the verse you are ripping out of context

Ripping out of context? LOL John 12:47.

I did not originally post it. Your fellow Open Theist did.

 

[Presby02]

His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save the whole world. Most of the world rejected being saved.

Personally I think it is very strange that you think either (1) He didn't want to save the whole world or (2) He didn't have the sufficient power to save the whole world.

I agree.

True. My God is big enough that if He actually wanted to save the world, as you define it, He would.

 

[Presby02]

Saved is in the subjunctive mood. This is the mood of possibility

It is not an indicative statement

Tom now simply denies scripture. His God is a God of possibilities.
Notice it also says He might judge the world. So He might not judge the world?

 

[Jim]

I agree.

True. My God is big enough that if He actually wanted to save the world, as you define it, He would.

God placed conditions upon those that He saves. Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

 

[Presby02]

God placed conditions upon those that He saves. Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

So then He has no intention of saving all then. Obviously He knew those conditions would prevent the world from being saved.

 

[TomL]

Tom now simply denies scripture. His God is a God of possibilities.
Notice it also says He might judge the world. So He might not judge the world?

You do not have the slightest clue what you are talking about

Saved is in the subjunctive mood. This is the mood of possibility

It is not an indicative statement

John 3:17 (UASV) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
=
John 12:47 (UASV) — 47 If anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

 

[Presby02]

You do not have the slightest clue what you are talking about

Saved is in the subjunctive mood. This is the mood of possibility

It is not an indicative statement

John 3:17 (UASV) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
=
John 12:47 (UASV) — 47 If anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

So there is a possibility He won't save the world or judge it. Given your open view, it certainly is possible.

 

[TomL]

So there is a possibility He won't save the world or judge it. Given your open view, it certainly is possible.

The subjective mood concerns the saving

all who do not believe will be finally judged on the last day