An example of how Calvinists presumption short circuit understanding

[TomL]

As I extolled elsewhere of my experiences on another forum, I had gotten in a rather intense discussion over the issue of justification. I had argued the ungodly were justified faith. To my surprise, I was attacked by multiple Calvinists including the forum moderator who stated God justifies the ungodly. I agreed adding the caveat when they believe. Well, that did not go over well. So I produced multiple verses speaking of justication by faith. It was denied that, this refutes their position in any manner. It was claimed that men are justified while in unbelief. No I stated men are justified by faith.

Well to my astonishment they agreed men are justified by faith even while holding that men are justified while still in unbelief. These are of course mutually contradictory propositions. The simple english phrase justified by faith was not understood. The word by which has a meaning which indicates the means by which something is achieved was totally overlooked.

What could have caused such a short-circuit in biblical and simple word understanding? I did not have time to ponder it at that time, but these are the conclusions I have since arrived at


Since the bible indicates the ungodly are justified

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

it was assumed the ungodly cannot believe because of the doctrine of total inability. Their belief is faith can only be had after regeneration. And it I think they would not hold those spoken of could have been regenerated because it states they were ungodly. And soi it seems doctrinal presuppositions had prevented the understanding of what is a rather simple statement. The words of the bible were not allowed to speak for themselves

Now I would not ascribe this to all Calvinists as I believe this a rather extreme example which would be rejected by learned Calvinists, it does illustrate how presupposition can color one's understanding of biblical truth.

As a result of this discussion, I was labeled ignorant and denoted as being lost

 

[Rockson]

Well to my astonishment they agreed men are justified by faith even while holding that men are justified while still in unbelief. These are of course mutually contradictory propositions.

Yeah sure they'll always seek to make fit a square peg in a round hole and tell themselves how wonderful it looks.

Now I would not ascribe this to all Calvinists as I believe this a rather extreme example which would be rejected by learned Calvinists, it does illustrate how presupposition can color one's understanding of biblical truth.

The question for me through the years has been why would they hold to their positions? I think a lot of it has to do with a spirit of fear they have although most of them would never admit to it. Some or many of them are wanting to honor God and the more

you can put a focus on him as being responsible for everything in their wrong assessments, they feel they've shown more humility. Or so they think. And they think God will be mad at them for not believing all things are ordained. That becomes an over riding paradigm to which all scripture must come in line with regardless how staggering to a rational mind it might be.

 

[civic]

As I extolled elsewhere of my experiences on another forum, I had gotten in a rather intense discussion over the issue of justification. I had argued the ungodly were justified faith. To my surprise, I was attacked by multiple Calvinists including the forum moderator who stated God justifies the ungodly. I agreed adding the caveat when they believe. Well, that did not go over well. So I produced multiple verses speaking of justication by faith. It was denied that, this refutes their position in any manner. It was claimed that men are justified while in unbelief. No I stated men are justified by faith.

Well to my astonishment they agreed men are justified by faith even while holding that men are justified while still in unbelief. These are of course mutually contradictory propositions. The simple english phrase justified by faith was not understood. The word by which has a meaning which indicates the means by which something is achieved was totally overlooked.

What could have caused such a short-circuit in biblical and simple word understanding? I did not have time to ponder it at that time, but these are the conclusions I have since arrived at


Since the bible indicates the ungodly are justified

Romans 4:5 (ESV) — 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

it was assumed the ungodly cannot believe because of the doctrine of total inability. Their belief is faith can only be had after regeneration. And it I think they would not hold those spoken of could have been regenerated because it states they were ungodly. And soi it seems doctrinal presuppositions had prevented the understanding of what is a rather simple statement. The words of the bible were not allowed to speak for themselves

Now I would not ascribe this to all Calvinists as I believe this a rather extreme example which would be rejected by learned Calvinists, it does illustrate how presupposition can color one's understanding of biblical truth.

As a result of this discussion, I was labeled ignorant and denoted as being lost










w

Maybe they are the lost ones and they are projecting their self righteousness onto you. Just a thought and real possibility. Do I believe there are saved Calvinists who love the Lord and brothers/ sisters in Christ outside of the reformed faith ? Absolutely but I also believe there are many who hate those non Calvinists , despise them and do not think non Calvinists are saved. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[Taylor]

As a result of this discussion, I was labeled ignorant and denoted as being lost

But now your found. Their loss our gain.

 

[TomL]

But now your found. Their loss our gain.

Thank you. I will however post there once my time in "purgatory" is over.

It's a joke

 

[TomL]

Maybe they are the lost ones and they are projecting their self righteousness onto you. Just a thought and real possibility. Do I believe there are saved Calvinists who love the Lord and brothers/ sisters in Christ outside of the reformed faith ? Absolutely but I also believe there are many who hate those non Calvinists , despise them and do not think non Calvinists are saved. You will know them by their fruits.

Well I do also. I try not to make it an issue of salvation.

 

[Rockson]

Well I do also. I try not to make it an issue of salvation.

I don't either but I'll tell you I'd be shaking in my boots to think that I could stand before God at the judgement, and it may not even be the heaven or hell judgment but to have him say the very thing I came into the world to do to let the sinner know that I love them and you came and distorted that message? No, no-no I'd rather be wrong on a thousand and one different things and have him correct me over those things but NOT about about the primary thing he came to do....to show his love and salvation.

 

[TomL]

I don't either but I'll tell you I'd be shaking in my boots to think that I could stand before God at the judgement, and it may not even be the heaven or hell judgment but to have him say the very thing I came into the world to do to let the sinner know that I love them and you came and distorted that message? No, no-no I'd rather be wrong on a thousand and one different things and have him correct me over those things but NOT about about the primary thing he came to do....to show his love and salvation.

Well, it something to seriously think about. Having had compromised the nature and love of God is no small matter

 

[Diserner]

Yeah, I don't miss those guys on Carm.

A lot of those old nasty Calvinists have been given over to a reprobate mind in my estimation, they are beyond reaching.

 

[TomL]

Yeah, I don't miss those guys on Carm.

A lot of those old nasty Calvinists have been given over to a reprobate mind in my estimation, they are beyond reaching.

Wow you are even more critical than I. They are hard though but that shows they are in need of help.

 

[Diserner]

Wow you are even more critical than I. They are hard though but that shows they are in need of help.

You need to realize the Bible does describe a point when people have hardened their heart and are no longer open. I am not necessarily talking about salvation, as a lot of them are saved—but a Christian can still have a stubborn heart that is hardened to the Holy Spirit, and they will receive serious discipline at the Judgment of Christ. At that point we are literally wasting the Lord's time and resources to continue to over and over bother people with closed hearts. We see this principle in the following verses..

7 "Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard,`Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
8 "But he answered and said to him,`Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.
9 `And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'" (Lk. 13:7-9 NKJ)

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (Heb. 6:7-8 NKJ)

10 "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
11 `The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.'
(Lk. 10:10-11 NKJ)

Now the LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? (1 Sam. 16:1 NKJ)

 

[Taylor]

Wow you are even more critical than I. They are hard though but that shows they are in need of help.

That's the problem, when you think you're right you don't need any help. That's what makes them hard to reach.

Reprobate: They “suppress the truth by their wickedness,” part of the definition is "rejected. I think that's a lot of what you experienced in your interaction with Calvinist.

 

[Taylor]

You need to realize the Bible does describe a point when people have hardened their heart and are no longer open. I am not necessarily talking about salvation, as a lot of them are saved—but a Christian can still have a stubborn heart that is hardened to the Holy Spirit, and they will receive serious discipline at the Judgment of Christ. At that point we are literally wasting the Lord's time and resources to continue to over and over bother people with closed hearts. We see this principle in the following verses..

Yes a stubborn heart can lead to not hearing that still small voice. I've heard it explained this way. That the holy spirit is a gentleman and won't force himself upon you. He comes in a still small voice and if you don't listen or just ignore him the voice will get smaller and smaller. And eventually you won't hear the voice at all. Like you stated above "Literally wasting the Lord's time"

If God wanted to use you and you won't listen he'll find someone else. That might be pointed out to you at the Judgment of Christ.

 

[Diserner]

That the holy spirit is a gentleman and won't force himself upon you.

Calvinists absolutely hate this saying because they believe in "irresistible" grace.

Try bringing it up with one sometime, lol.

 

[Taylor]

That's a good one, first time I've ever heard it. Reminds me of the one about "irresistible" grace that goes/ Does God drag some people kicking and screaming into His kingdom while preventing others who desperately want to be saved?

 

[Diserner]

That's a good one, first time I've ever heard it. Reminds me of the one about "irresistible" grace that goes/ Does God drag some people kicking and screaming into His kingdom while preventing others who desperately want to be saved?

They usually try to use Paul as some kind of example of that.

But even Paul could "kick against the goads."

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well to my astonishment they agreed men are justified by faith even while holding that men are justified while still in unbelief.

Unbelief of what?? FAITH and "Unbelief" are contradictory terms. BOTH can"t exist.

Of course a CALVINIST told me that being "Born again", and being "Saved" aren't the same thing, (apparently to calvinists "being regenerated" means that you're "Born again", but neither term means "Saved". Theology!!!! you gotta love it!!!!

 

[Diserner]

(apparently to calvinists "being regenerated" means that you're "Born again", but neither term means "Saved". Theology!!!! you gotta love it!!!!

No, your guy is definitely "non-standard."

I've listened to a lot of Calvinists and that's not what they say.

That's more like a "soul sleep you're only saved at the resurrection" kind of view.

 

[Begotten]

Calvinists seem to be a little embarrassed by the term “irresistible grace” and have sought to soften it or replace it with a term like “effectual calling.” They also object when others criticize that “irresistible grace” since it suggests that God forces persons to do things against their wills. Instead, some Calvinists say God merely woos and persuades.

 

[Diserner]

If God wanted to use you and you won't listen he'll find someone else. That might be pointed out to you at the Judgment of Christ.

For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." (Heb. 12:6 NKJ)

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/we-must-all-stand-before-the-judgment-seat-of-christ.96/