An Article on free will

[Kermos]

That's funny as the determinism brought into the church had its origin in the gnostic cults

You use conjured confused history and fabricated false grammar to distort the Apostle Paul's Godly writing as demonstrated below.

Essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's knowledge is central, and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge - for it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22).

The Apostle Paul teaches the centrality of Christ, and I believe in and proclaim the centrality of Christ alone.

sorry no

Salvation is not of yourself

Salvation is not of works

Faith remains man's responsibility

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

see

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. Expositors says: “Paul never says ‘through the faith,’ as if the faith were the ground or procuring cause of the salvation.” Alford says: “It (the salvation) has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith.” The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.” It refers to the general idea of salvation in the immediate context. The translation reads, “and this not out from you as a source, of God (it is) the gift.” That is, salvation is a gift of God. It does not find its source in man. Furthermore, this salvation is not “out of a source of works.” This explains salvation by grace. It is not produced by man nor earned by him. It is a gift from God with no strings tied to it. Paul presents the same truth in Romans 4:4, 5 when speaking of the righteousness which God imputed to Abraham, where he says: “Now, to the one who works, his wages are not looked upon as a favor but as that which is justly or legally due. But to the one who does not work but believes on the One who justifies the impious, his faith is computed for righteousness.”

Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader (vol. 4; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 69–70.

And that. Not faith, but the salvation.

Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 376.


But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.





Your first problem is your claim is denied by Greek authorities mention above

your second problem is there is no such rule

When there is a lack of concord such as in eph 2:8 the pronoun takes its antecedent from sense

salvation is the topic, the sense of the passage

Furthermore it is hard to see how Paul who tells the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved

would then argue the qualifying phrases not of yourself and not of works refers to faith rather than salvation

especially when he already confirmed salvation is the gift of god

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The True Grammar of Ephesians 2:8-10​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these ten words, at constructs such as Greek language case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and this "you" is plural; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:

For by grace you are saved through faith
(Ephesians 2:8)
​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, for example, he did not precisely tie objects back to the subject using case/number/gender agreement.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8:

• by grace you are saved through faith
• and that not of yourselves
• it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• grace is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• saved is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• faith is not a work of man while being the work of God.

in Paul's writing of

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about the Sovereign Holy God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO THE RIGHTEOUS ONE TRUE HOLY GOD!!!

 

[Rockson]

Essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's knowledge is central, and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge - for it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22).

So you feel you're justified to claim that verse Rom 1:22 is to be connected to your Christian brethren who seek to live righteous lives (the people in Rom 1 did not) to people who accept the invisible things of creation show God's glory (the people referred in Rom 1 did not) to people who are thankful (the people in Rom 1 were not) and other things that can be said as well, and join them into that group because they don't believe in your Calvinistic way of thinking? So you don't think you're being purposely overly extreme? I think you might want to consider dialing back your hyperbole. It serves no good except to muddy the waters.

 

[Kermos]

So you feel you're justified to claim that verse Rom 1:22 is to be connected to your Christian brethren who seek to live righteous lives (the people in Rom 1 did not) to people who accept the invisible things of creation show God's glory (the people referred in Rom 1 did not) to people who are thankful (the people in Rom 1 were not) and other things that can be said as well, and join them into that group because they don't believe in your Calvinistic way of thinking? So you don't think you're being purposely overly extreme? I think you might want to consider dialing back your hyperbole. It serves no good except to muddy the waters.

Before you speak out publicly about an ongoing exchange, you had better take the time to review the prior posts! I've not mentioned Gnostics once in this thread until 2024/03/22 in the post to which you replied.

Your favored TomL called me a Gnostic unbeliever as recorded here (his post date 2024/03/10) and here (his post date 2024/03/19), yet you call me out but not your favored TomL (I searched). When one has a standard for oneself (and favored ones) and a differing standard for others, then that is called hypocrisy. Lord Jesus railed against hypocrites with "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matthew 23:13-36).

There are no "people who accept the invisible things of creation show God's glory" on their own initiative because the word "accept" is absent from all Romans 1 AND Lord Jesus says people are incapable of judging righteously (your "accept" included among the incapability) with His powerful "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LAMB OF GOD!!!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[TomL]

You use conjured confused history and fabricated false grammar to distort the Apostle Paul's Godly writing as demonstrated below.

Essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's knowledge is central, and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge - for it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22).

The Apostle Paul teaches the centrality of Christ, and I believe in and proclaim the centrality of Christ alone.

The True Grammar of Ephesians 2:8-10​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

​

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).​

​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these ten words, at constructs such as Greek language case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and this "you" is plural; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:

​

For by grace you are saved through faith​

(Ephesians 2:8)​

​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, for example, he did not precisely tie objects back to the subject using case/number/gender agreement.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8:

• by grace you are saved through faith
• and that not of yourselves
• it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• grace is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• saved is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• faith is not a work of man while being the work of God.

in Paul's writing of

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about the Sovereign Holy God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO THE RIGHTEOUS ONE TRUE HOLY GOD!!!

Sorry it is no mystery Augustine was a member of various gnostic cults. He was Manichean for 10 years.

All the church Father disputed the Manicheans, even Augustine when first converted only to revert later on

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2685...bmQtY29ycnVwdG9yLW9mLXRoZS1jaHVyY2gv&ntb=1BTT

Calvinist Greek scholar A T Robertson disputes your understanding of Eph 2:8

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

And he is not alone

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

As does scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5), and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God. It can be agreed that saving faith is the gift of God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (1 Cor. 4:7; Rom. 11:35, 36). However, this is entirely different from the position that an unsaved person cannot believe until he first receives a special gift of faith from God. Such a doctrine is opposed by the whosoever passages of the Bible, and by passages which beseech the sinner to be saved (i.e., John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:20).

 

[civic]

Sorry it is no mystery Augustine was a member of various gnostic cults. He was Manichean for 10 years.

All the church Father disputed the Manicheans, even Augustine when first converted only to revert later on

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2685...bmQtY29ycnVwdG9yLW9mLXRoZS1jaHVyY2gv&ntb=1BTT

Calvinist Greek scholar A T Robertson disputes your understanding of Eph 2:8

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

And he is not alone

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

As does scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5), and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God. It can be agreed that saving faith is the gift of God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (1 Cor. 4:7; Rom. 11:35, 36). However, this is entirely different from the position that an unsaved person cannot believe until he first receives a special gift of faith from God. Such a doctrine is opposed by the whosoever passages of the Bible, and by passages which beseech the sinner to be saved (i.e., John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:20).

Thanks for the real history behind the doctrine. One must be a revisionist to deny the historical facts.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for the real history behind the doctrine. One must be a revisionist to deny the historical facts.

You are welcome

 

[Rockson]

Sorry it is no mystery Augustine was a member of various gnostic cults. He was Manichean for 10 years.

All the church Father disputed the Manicheans, even Augustine when first converted only to revert later on

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2685...bmQtY29ycnVwdG9yLW9mLXRoZS1jaHVyY2gv&ntb=1BTT

Calvinist Greek scholar A T Robertson disputes your understanding of Eph 2:8

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

And he is not alone

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

As does scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5), and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God. It can be agreed that saving faith is the gift of God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (1 Cor. 4:7; Rom. 11:35, 36). However, this is entirely different from the position that an unsaved person cannot believe until he first receives a special gift of faith from God. Such a doctrine is opposed by the whosoever passages of the Bible, and by passages which beseech the sinner to be saved (i.e., John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:20).

Good research work TomL! Just a suggestion might be good to make this a thread too, On Eph 2: 8. with your work here as the OP. It's just that Eph 2:8 is a go to scripture that Calvs use a lot and for Non Calvinists like myself I can easily refer to it when needed.

 

[civic]

Good research work TomL! Just a suggestion might be good to make this a thread too, On Eph 2: 8. with your work here as the OP. It's just that Eph 2:8 is a go to scripture that Calvs use a lot and for Non Calvinists like myself I can easily refer to it when needed.

ditto @TomL

 

[Cyrus]

To me Ephesians 8 and all the verses that follow are total put-down of Calvinism. Context is everything!

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

 

[civic]

You use conjured confused history and fabricated false grammar to distort the Apostle Paul's Godly writing as demonstrated below.

Essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's knowledge is central, and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge - for it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22).

The Apostle Paul teaches the centrality of Christ, and I believe in and proclaim the centrality of Christ alone.

The True Grammar of Ephesians 2:8-10​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

​

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).​

​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these ten words, at constructs such as Greek language case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and this "you" is plural; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:

​

For by grace you are saved through faith​

(Ephesians 2:8)​

​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, for example, he did not precisely tie objects back to the subject using case/number/gender agreement.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8:

• by grace you are saved through faith
• and that not of yourselves
• it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• grace is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• saved is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• faith is not a work of man while being the work of God.

in Paul's writing of

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about the Sovereign Holy God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO THE RIGHTEOUS ONE TRUE HOLY GOD!!!

faith is not the work of God and the passage does not say or imply any such thing. Paul does not contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Jesus always every single time declared it was the sinners, the unregenerates faith that saved them, healed them. Never once saying it was the faith He gave them or granted them. He was AMAZED at such GREAT FAITH He saw in people.

You contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Since Jesus is the One who saves He ought to know what He is talking about on the topic of faith.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Kermos]

Same old already refurted claims

You failed to show Christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

Strike 1

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Strike 2

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Strike 3


clearly Christ chose his apostles and that did not necessitate the salvation of all

additionally Calvinist commentators refute you

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

Note

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers,

consider the various choices here in the parable of the wedding feast

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.

Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

In your exuberance to disprove "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29) as well as "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), in that exuberance you wrote "Strike 1 From them he chose 12 to be apostles", yet you have been shown that in Luke 6:12-16, nothing states that Christ did not choose anyone beyond the 12 Apostles, but the passage does show that Christ did this particular choosing of the 12 Apostles years before Christ had the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, so these two instances about Christ's choice are temporally separate which has Christ choosing all believers in all time according to His magnificent sayings!

In that same exuberance, you wrote "Strike 2 John 6:70" when Lord Jesus says "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil" (John 6:70) in which you illegitimately cast constraint using Christ's words of "you, the twelve" from an event in John chapter 6 into a time and geographically separate event in John chapter 15; furthermore, Judas Iscariot had departed from the supper (John 13:21-30), so there where only 11 Apostles present when Christ spoke "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) which proves the error in your casted constraint.

You exuberantly propounded “Strike 3 clearly Christ chose his apostles and that did not necessitate the salvation of all” respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

You answered “Yes” to the question of “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?” as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus’ first two “you” occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus’ second two “you” occurrences apply “exclusively to the apostles”:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, ).​

​

The following was edited by admin due to bad link​

Your heart’s treasure results in “I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles” (the self-contradictory word of TomL).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[TomL]

In your exuberance to disprove "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29) as well as "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), in that exuberance you wrote "Strike 1 From them he chose 12 to be apostles", yet you have been shown that in Luke 6:12-16, nothing states that Christ did not choose anyone beyond the 12 Apostles, but the passage does show that Christ did this particular choosing of the 12 Apostles years before Christ had the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, so these two instances about Christ's choice are temporally separate which has Christ choosing all believers in all time according to His magnificent sayings!

In that same exuberance, you wrote "Strike 2 John 6:70" when Lord Jesus says "Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil" (John 6:70) in which you illegitimately cast constraint using Christ's words of "you, the twelve" from an event in John chapter 6 into a time and geographically separate event in John chapter 15; furthermore, Judas Iscariot had departed from the supper (John 13:21-30), so there where only 11 Apostles present when Christ spoke "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) which proves the error in your casted constraint.

You exuberantly propounded “Strike 3 clearly Christ chose his apostles and that did not necessitate the salvation of all” respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

You answered “Yes” to the question of “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?” as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus’ first two “you” occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus’ second two “you” occurrences apply “exclusively to the apostles”:

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, ).​

​

The following was edited by admin due to bad link​

Your heart’s treasure results in “I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles” (the self-contradictory word of TomL).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

All repeated claims previously addressed

You failed to show Christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

Strike 1

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Strike 2

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Strike 3


clearly Christ chose his apostles and that did not necessitate the salvation of all

additionally Calvinist commentators refute you

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

Note

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers,

consider the various choices here in the parable of the wedding feast

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.

Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

 

[TomL]

ditto @TomL

Threads tend to disappear. The way I handle it is to get a bible program with the capability to create notes. Then you can attach comments you like to the bible verse. There are some free ones along with the expensive Logos. The online bible and Esword is how I got started though I now use Logos primarily

 

[TomL]

Good research work TomL! Just a suggestion might be good to make this a thread too, On Eph 2: 8. with your work here as the OP. It's just that Eph 2:8 is a go to scripture that Calvs use a lot and for Non Calvinists like myself I can easily refer to it when needed.

Thanks. I use extensive notes attached to my bible program but also standalone notes as well

 

[Kermos]

faith is not the work of God and the passage does not say or imply any such thing. Paul does not contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Jesus always every single time declared it was the sinners, the unregenerates faith that saved them, healed them. Never once saying it was the faith He gave them or granted them. He was AMAZED at such GREAT FAITH He saw in people.

You contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Since Jesus is the One who saves He ought to know what He is talking about on the topic of faith.

hope this helps !!!

You wrote "faith is not the work of God", yet you replied to a post in which Lord Jesus is quoted specifically declaring that a person's saving faith/belief is the work of God in His awesome and Holy words of:

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(The Word of God, John 6:29)
​

But, you didn't stop there for you continued with "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith" when all I did was quote Jesus, so you bear false witness against me.

There is still more of crucial import. When your heart conveyed "faith is not the work of God" in conjunction with your thoughts of "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith", then you are truly conveying "This is NOT the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/" (the word of civic the admin).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Kermos]

Sorry it is no mystery Augustine was a member of various gnostic cults. He was Manichean for 10 years.

All the church Father disputed the Manicheans, even Augustine when first converted only to revert later on

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2685...bmQtY29ycnVwdG9yLW9mLXRoZS1jaHVyY2gv&ntb=1BTT

The Greek word γνῶσις (Strong's 1108 - gnosis - a knowing, knowledge) is the root word of "Gnostics", and we find at the above lexical definition link:

the Gnostics boasted of their "applied knowledge" gained by their personal spiritual experiences
​

So, essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's personal knowledge is central, yet Gnostisism is for naught for it is written "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24) furthermore it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22), and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge.

The Apostle Paul teaches the centrality of Christ, and I believe in and proclaim the centrality of Christ alone.

You use conjured confused history and fabricated false grammar to distort the Apostle Paul's Godly writing as demonstrated below.

An aside, hey @Rockson, you rebuke not @TomL again this third time that TomL called me a Gnostic unbeliever based on TomL's faulty personal knowledge associating myself with Augustine, who TomL says Augustine did revert to heresy for TomL's link opens an article titled "Augustine: Gnostic Heretic and Corruptor of The Church".

@Rockson, @L.A.M.B. and @civic, you have acquired TomL's post as your own words because of your "Like" agreement reaction.

Calvinist Greek scholar A T Robertson disputes your understanding of Eph 2:8

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

And he is not alone

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1

1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.

But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145

As does scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5), and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God. It can be agreed that saving faith is the gift of God in the broad sense in which all things come from God (1 Cor. 4:7; Rom. 11:35, 36). However, this is entirely different from the position that an unsaved person cannot believe until he first receives a special gift of faith from God. Such a doctrine is opposed by the whosoever passages of the Bible, and by passages which beseech the sinner to be saved (i.e., John 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:20).

The True Grammar of Ephesians 2:8-10​

The Apostle Paul wrote:

"by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
​

In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of "by grace you have been saved" in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of "by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" in Ephesians 2:8.

Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let's look at these ten words, at constructs such as Greek language case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:

• grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
• you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and "you" is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb "are".
• are - verb - is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
• saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
• faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
• and - conjunction
• that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
• yourselves - personal pronoun - genitive in the second person with plural count.
• God - noun - genitive/masculine/singular
• gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular

Since both "you" and "yourselves" are second person and plural count, then the word "yourselves" refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of "you"; therefore, the word "that" arbitrates the thing that is "not of yourselves" as well as "the gift of God".

A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar.

A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence's verb can concretely indicate the sentence's subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.

In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb "are", and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, "you", and this "you" is plural; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:

For by grace you are saved through faith
(Ephesians 2:8)
​

The English word "you" is concretely the subject.

As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, for example, he did not precisely tie objects back to the subject using case/number/gender agreement.

There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.

Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase "faith and that not of yourselves" is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of "it is the gift of God".

As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.

There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as "God" and "faith" are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words "God" and "faith" together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).

We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8:

• by grace you are saved through faith
• and that not of yourselves
• it is the gift of God

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "not of yourselves".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is "the gift of God".

The full concept of the "by grace you are saved through faith" clause is composed of the constituent parts of "grace" and "saved" and "faith".

When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of

• grace is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• saved is not a work of man while being the work of God.
• faith is not a work of man while being the work of God.

in Paul's writing of

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
​

One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine "God" and the feminine "faith".

In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.

The Apostle Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus Christ's sayings of "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your heart makes false statements about the Sovereign Holy God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE BE TO THE RIGHTEOUS ONE TRUE HOLY GOD!!!

 

[civic]

You wrote "faith is not the work of God", yet you replied to a post in which Lord Jesus is quoted specifically declaring that a person's saving faith/belief is the work of God in His awesome and Holy words of:

​

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent​

(The Word of God, John 6:29)​

​

But, you didn't stop there for you continued with "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith" when all I did was quote Jesus, so you bear false witness against me.

There is still more of crucial import. When your heart conveyed "faith is not the work of God" in conjunction with your thoughts of "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith", then you are truly conveying "This is NOT the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/" (the word of civic the admin).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

God does not give anyone saving faith that’s what I meant . Jesus said over a dozen times YOUR FAITH SAVED you not the faith He gave them

Notice the calvinist must use presuppositions in parenthesis below to support faith being a gift. Whereas Jesus never once taught that is true. He said " YOUR FAITH ".

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!

Next

 

[TomL]

The Greek word γνῶσις (Strong's 1108 - gnosis - a knowing, knowledge) is the root word of "Gnostics", and we find at the above lexical definition link:

​

the Gnostics boasted of their "applied knowledge" gained by their personal spiritual experiences​

​

So, essentially, Gnostic people taught that man's personal knowledge is central, yet Gnostisism is for naught for it is written "Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24) furthermore it is written "professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:22), and you teach the same with your "I chose Jesus" as based on your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) knowledge.

The Apostle Paul teaches the centrality of Christ, and I believe in and proclaim the centrality of Christ alone.

You use conjured confused history and fabricated false grammar to distort the Apostle Paul's Godly writing as demonstrated below.

Sorry you have shown nothing at all to rebut the fact Augustine had belonged to gnostic groups previous to his conversion

An aside, hey @Rockson, you rebuke not @TomL again this third time that TomL called me a Gnostic unbeliever based on TomL's faulty personal knowledge associating myself with Augustine, who TomL says Augustine did revert to heresy for TomL's link opens an article titled "Augustine: Gnostic Heretic and Corruptor of The Church".

@Rockson, @L.A.M.B. and @civic, you have acquired TomL's post as your own words because of your "Like" agreement reaction.

Sorry this is false I did not call you a gnostic unbeliever

everything else you state is just a repeat

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-67491

 

[civic]

Sorry you have shown nothing at all to rebut the fact Augustine had belonged to gnostic groups previous to his conversion






Sorry this is false I did not call you a gnostic unbeliever

everything else you state is just a repeat

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-67491

Exactly it’s espousing Gnosticism where the doctrines originated

 

[Kermos]

God does not give anyone saving faith that’s what I meant . Jesus said over a dozen times YOUR FAITH SAVED you not the faith He gave them

Notice the calvinist must use presuppositions in parenthesis below to support faith being a gift. Whereas Jesus never once taught that is true. He said " YOUR FAITH ".

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!

Next

Lovely, you quoted absolutely lovely Word of God!

Lord Jesus orates preciously wonderful words "The faith of you has saved you; go in peace" (Luke 7:50, and see attached image), and, behold, no parentheticals such as your "( I have given you )", so you rightly excluded me from the group called Calvinists. I am a Christian for I believe In Christ!

Did you know that "your faith" in Luke 7:50 is truly "the faith of you" according to original Greek?

Did you know that all similar English translation occurrences, such as "his faith", are likewise, such as "the faith of him" according to original Greek without exception?

Consider the phrase "the God of you", now reflect on the phrase "the faith of you".

The "you" in the phrases does NOT control God nor faith.

In reality, faith/belief controls us disciples because God's working in us to will and to work for God's good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

God controls us Christians by God's grace for God's glory.

Faith/Belief is a fruit of the Spirit of God (Galatians 5:22), so a person's saving faith/belief is the work of God in His awesome Power as illumines Holy words of:

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(The Word of God, John 6:29)
​

Thus the following remains Truth (John 14:6).

faith is not the work of God and the passage does not say or imply any such thing. Paul does not contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Jesus always every single time declared it was the sinners, the unregenerates faith that saved them, healed them. Never once saying it was the faith He gave them or granted them. He was AMAZED at such GREAT FAITH He saw in people.

You contradict Jesus teaching on faith. Since Jesus is the One who saves He ought to know what He is talking about on the topic of faith.

hope this helps !!!

You wrote "faith is not the work of God", yet you replied to a post in which Lord Jesus is quoted specifically declaring that a person's saving faith/belief is the work of God in His awesome and Holy words of:

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(The Word of God, John 6:29)
​

But, you didn't stop there for you continued with "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith" when all I did was quote Jesus, so you bear false witness against me.

There is still more of crucial import. When your heart conveyed "faith is not the work of God" in conjunction with your thoughts of "You contradict Jesus teaching on faith", then you are truly conveying "This is NOT the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/" (the word of civic the admin).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!