Nope, it just means God has standards he will break despite his desire
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Biblelesson
Active member
Calvin himself said the following
"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil.
And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined." - John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70
"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil.
And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined." - John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Luther dealt with this extensively in his "Bondage of the Will", which was a response to an Erasmus diatribe. I strongly recommend reading it, if only to admire Luther's skill at sarcasm. I haven't read any Calvin (except to check to see if someone's quote was real), but I can see why some people say Calvin is only a footnote to Luther.
Rockson
Well-known member
No offence but just stop it will you, just STOP it already! You're trying to position yourself on a message board that there's no way you can be wrong....after all God caused you to write what you did! Look everyone is bringing what they've got to the table here and for you to take upon yourself an infallible position is no way to discuss. Or do you want all of us to say No God didn't tell you that to say because God told me to tell you this???? How about we just put down our assessments using the scriptures and allow them to be tested? Remember the Bereans in Acts 17:11
And Tom doesn't believe that either. He may feel he's refuted your interpretation of certain verses but that's a far cry from saying what you've said above.
Sorry Kermos but aren't you doing that RIGHT NOW? Matt 15:9 does not say free will is a tradition of men. Matt 15:9 states, " But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." It's you that have imposed what you think into the text which in context didn't mention anything about free will. Now that's conjuring.
Calvin double speaks
If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin,Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
Your "You failed to show Christ chose any other than his apostles" is clearly false because of the following. A person holding to the false is that person holding to the anti-truth.
You propounded “The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them” in your post respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.
Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.
Thus, your "PS Christ did not choose Matthias" is unequivocally false because the Truth (John 14:6) chose both Joseph and Matthias.
So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:
Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!
Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.
You answered “Yes” to the question of “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?” as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus’ first two “you” occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus’ second two “you” occurrences apply “exclusively to the apostles”:
I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, ).
Your heart’s treasure results in “I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles” (the self-contradictory word of TomL).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured up falsehood concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
Full of contradictions
Yep Calvinism must involve contradictions
Same old already refurted claims
You failed to show Christ chose any other than his apostles
The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them
Christ did not choose Matthias
Christs choice was of his apostles
His disciples were given to him by the Father.
John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.
Strike 1
From them he chose 12 to be apostles
Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
Strike 2
John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
Strike 3
clearly Christ chose his apostles and that did not necessitate the salvation of all
additionally Calvinist commentators refute you
Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.
But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.
12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.
True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.
Note
True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers,
consider the various choices here in the parable of the wedding feast
Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.
Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.
Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.
Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.
In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles
Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time
Your position suffers from the following defects
Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ
you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation
yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation
Further we know God chooses to save those that believe
1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.
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Your opening two paragraphs (combined here "World does not mean elect No lexicons allows such" is flat out contradicted by your third paragraph "b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47." (see John 3:16 is specifically cited as God's chosen loved believers), so a world of confusion is visible in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) thoughts!
We God's chosen (elect) are a part of the world before God delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (Colossians 1:13) for it is written "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come" (Revelation 17:8), so the name of every single one of God's elect (chosen) persons is known prior to the birth of anyone of us God's chosen (God's elect) persons.
In the continuation of this post, you can find Spiritual Truth (John 14:6):
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
The word "world" possesses a variety of definitions in scripture, and the context of the word "world" generally sets the definition.
The Greek word κόσμος (kosmos, Strong's 2889 - world) translates to "world".
The Word "World" in Ephesians 1:1-14
Paul mentions "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) in the passage.
The "world" as used by Paul here indicates all the earth and all that is in it.
Paul refers to the time before the earth ("world") was created.
The word "world" in Ephesians 1:4 is the earth and all that is in the earth.
The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)
The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):
Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
The third order is to listen to the Master.
Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).
Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.
Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".
Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.
Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).
The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.
For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).
Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).
God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".
Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".
In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".
Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" after the "the serpent in the wilderness" was set on a pole/standard (Numbers 21:9). As another example, this population of persons certainly includes bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness" due to the many people of Israel (Numbers 21:6) who were dead before God Almighty commanded Moses to make the "the serpent in the wilderness" "and set it on a standard" (Numbers 21:8). This population of persons I'll call the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of bitten-non-lookers".
Jesus utilized a comparator in which a group of many persons in the "population of bitten-non-lookers" were incapable of looking at the "the serpent in the wilderness" because that subset of people were dead prior to Moses fashioning the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:9), so Jesus sets the same standard for a subset of persons in the "world" (John 3:16) because that group of people are incapable of seeing King Jesus (John 3:3-8).
God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).
So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.
Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).
Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".
God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.
So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.
Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).
This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).
The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.
There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.
Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.
When self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).
The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.
If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.
Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.
The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.
The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The Word "World" in The Book of the First Letter of John (1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19)
The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).
The Apostle John also wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
Notice "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author.
Since free-will supporting persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then such persons interpretation of "the whole world" has such free-will supporting persons themselves as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
Because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), then this means Christians are beyond the evil one; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.
This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.
This means that free-will supporting persons have not overcome the evil one since such free-will supporting persons include themselves in "the whole world" thus including themselves as lying in the evil one.
The "lies" or "lying" in the evil one is similar to "abides" or "abiding" in the evil one, so there is a tight relationship between such free-will supporting persons and the evil one.
The English word "lies" in 1 John 2:2 derives from the Greek word "κεῖται" (Strong's 2749 - keimai - to be laid, lie) which specifically means "lay".
This means that free-will supporting persons are not Christians, and it is the free-will supporting persons definition of "world" that effectually makes such free-will supporting persons Non-Christians, that is, unbelievers.
This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible.
These two different meanings for the word "world", "the whole world", occur in one book of the New Testament.
It is time to return to 1 John 2:2.
- John was writing to God's own people in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John), so the context is believers, John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) - that "our" and the upcoming "ours" are believers, so continuing on with that which John wrote "and not for ours only, but also for the whole world".
- A believer reading 1 John 2:2 knows that God converted the believer from "the whole world" into the "our" of God's assembly of believers (Matthew 18:3), yet an unbeliever who reads 1 John 2:2 considers Jesus' sacrifice foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14); therefore, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who God is yet to work faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
- The phrase "{b]the whole world[/b]" in 1 John 2:2 refers only to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted the work of God which is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); otherwise, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 results in everyone everywhere being saved from the wrath of God, a.k.a. universalism, yet universalism is deception because the Word of God says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21) thus Jesus indicates that some people do not enter heaven which means those people go to hell (Matthew 25:41).
- The phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 refers only persons yet to become part of Israel, the true Israel (Romans 9:6) and persons grafted into Israel (Romans 11:11-36), for the Word of God says "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" does not include persons that currently have been imparted the work of God, faith/belief, in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) because John led with "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only", so John uses "our" for exclusively current believers and John uses "world" for exclusively future believers.
The word "world" in 1 John 2:2 is the population of persons who are yet to be imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
The word "world" in 1 John 5:19 is the population of persons who have NOT been imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), and this population of persons includes persons that will not be imparted faith/belief before such persons die.
Behold, the two different populations of persons represented by "world" in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John).
Conclusion About The Word "World" in The New Testament Books
The word "world" has four different meanings in the above passages.
The word "world" does not of necessity need to be defined as "all the people that are in it".
The word "world" in the New Testament Books is generally defined by the context around the word.
The absolute Truth (John 14:6) is that the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!
Sorry that is not a contradiction at all
especially does not omit those especially designated
b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
you cannot leave out of all mankind
and you certainly cannot omit any unbeliever from
John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
so you remain in error
Your closing three paragraphs are combined here) "Finally you fail to recognize Jesus compares his atonement to when the serpant is lifted up" "when lifted up it is available to all" "by attempting to comopare it to the period before the atonement was set up you twist Christs comparison", so your spirit accuses me of twisting scripture by adding to Lord Jesus Christ's words, so let's test your spirit (1 John 4:1).
Believers who died looking forward to the Christ existed before Christ made atonement in His Blood on the cross for it is written "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised" (Matthew 27:52); therefore, Christ's atonement extends to the "world" (John 3:16) before Christ was "lifted up" (John 3:14) on the cross, so your spirit's "by attempting to comopare it to the period before the atonement was set up you twist Christs comparison" is Spiritually false!
At the time the Blessed Voice from Heaven said "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5, the transfiguration, "LISTEN TO HIM"), the Apostle Matthew explains that "behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with" Lord Jesus Christ, and this is the same Moses who died and was buried by God on Mount Nebo - the same Moses who before he died "lifted up" "the serpent in the wilderness" more than 1,000 years before Jesus mentions "the serpent in the wilderness" (see John 3:14); therefore, Christ's atonement extends to the "world" (John 3:16) before Christ was "lifted up" (John 3:14) on the cross, so your spirit's "by attempting to comopare it to the period before the atonement was set up you twist Christs comparison" is Spiritually false!
Essentially, the above means that Christ includes the many people of Israel (Numbers 21:6) who were dead before God Almighty commanded Moses to make the "the serpent in the wilderness" "and set it on a standard" (Numbers 21:8) in His blessed saying of:
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
(John 3:14-16).
This current post is a continuation from this post where the Word of God plants Spiritual Truth (John 14:6):
Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)
Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
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Biblelesson
Active member
I have it and I've quoted it many times.
Argument 1: The universal guilt of mankind proves “free will” to be false.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (Rom 1:17-19) In Romans 1:18, Paul teaches that all men without exception deserve to be punished by God: “The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”
If all men have “free will” and yet all without exception are under God’s wrath, then it follows that “free will” leads them in only one direction—“ungodliness and unrighteousness” (i.e., wickedness). So where is the power of “free will” helping them to do good? If “free will” exists, it does not seem to be able to help men to salvation because it still leaves them under the wrath of God.
Luther, Martin. An Important Chapter from The Bondage of the Will - A Modern English Abridgment
Again the point of comparison is what happens upon the lifting up. Upon it all may either look to or believe upon the lifted atonement.
This is contrary to your theology as is the meaning of kosmos as seen in lexicons, quoted Calviist authorities and of course scripture
John 12:47 (NASB 2020) — 47 If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
Your theology is built upon one falsehood after another
Your heart's illegitimate linguistics redefine "receive" into a thing done by a recipient to a recipient instead of the legitimate linguistic definition of "receive" being a thing done by a source to a recipient; therefore, you preach confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) and folly in your post 1 of 2 as exposed in the following.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:
The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.
The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.
A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.
Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.
"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:
1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)
There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".
The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.
In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).
"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:
The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.
The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.
The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".
Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).
Each of these are exactly the same people:
- "many as received Him"
- "children of God"
- "believe in His name"
- "born of God"
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.
John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.
Again, here is the passage:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).
"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)
Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.
The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
civic
Well-known member
John 1:11- He came to His own and His own did not RECIEVE Him.
John 1:12 in a single verse combines receiving and believing that is done by the very ones who are saved.
Those who receive the Son and Believe in the Son are the ones as a result of believing/receiving- become children of God.
John 1:12- Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Galatians 3:26- “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”
conclusion: One becomes a child of God after believing/receiving Christ.
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Scripture and lexicons and commentators refuted you
Receive lambano is an aorist active indicative 3rd person verb
Lambano
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;
You will note BAGD gives a meaning of to receive someone in the sense of recognizing their authority specifically citing John 1:12
The only lie here is the one you keep propagating ignoring the active voice and the definition of BAGD
John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
the verse itself defines what it is to receive Christ
who believed in his name,
This matches perfectly with BDAG
Believing on Jesus Christ gives one the right to be made a child of God
Galatians 3:26 (ESV) — 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.
But to as many as received him. That none may be retarded by this stumbling-block, that the Jews despised and rejected Christ, the Evangelist exalts above heaven the godly who believe in him; for he says that by faith they obtain this glory of being reckoned the sons of God
John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 40.
The ὅσοι … primarily refers to the ἐκλογή among the Jews who have just been spoken of: but also, by implication, being opposed to both ὁ κόσμος and οἱ ἴδιοι, the ἐκλογή in all the world.
ἔλαβον = παρέλαβον above—as many as recognized Him as that which He was—the Word of God and Light of men.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.
BTW No one received christ in the form of the indwelling spirit until after Pentecost
Your "Your theology is based on Gnostic falsehoods conjured up in the mind of a man steeped in cultic traditions which were absent from and contested by the early" is Spiritually false as per the Apostle Paul's writing illumines the folly of your post 2 of 2 is exposed in the following.
The True Grammar In Ephesians 2:8
The Apostle Paul wrote:
“by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
In Ephesians chapter 2, Paul introduces the development for the concept of “by grace you have been saved” in Ephesians 2:5, then Paul proceeded through the intervening verses to the fully developed big reveal of “by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God” in Ephesians 2:8.
Paul expanded on what he started to talk about in Ephesians 2:5; moreover, in Ephesians 2:8, Paul makes it Spiritually and grammatically clear that faith is inextricably included in the “not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”.
The Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8 is multi-faceted, so let’s look at these ten words, at constructs such as case/gender/number which establish communication, so here they are:
- grace – noun – dative/feminine/singular
- you is exclusively the subject in (Ephesians 2:8), and “you” is derived from the second person and plural count of the inflection of the verb “are”.
- are – verb – is a present, indicative, active verb in the second person and plural count
- saved – verb – nominative/masculine/plural
- faith – noun – genitive/feminine/singular
- and – conjunction
- that – demonstrative pronoun – nominative/neuter/singular
- yourselves – personal pronoun – genitive in the second person with plural count.
- God – noun – genitive/masculine/singular
- gift – noun – nominative/neuter/singular
Since both “you” and “yourselves” are second person and plural count, then the word “yourselves” refers specifically to the complete sentence subject of “you”; therefore, the word “that” arbitrates the thing that is “not of yourselves” as well as “the gift of God”.
A noun is the subject of a sentence, and a verb is an action by or on the subject of the sentence; moreover, a verb is not the subject of a sentence, and this is fundamental grammar, so your grammar is illegal.
A nuance of inflective languages is that a sentence’s verb can concretely indicate the sentence’s subject noun without including the specific word for the noun in the sentence. Both Greek and Spanish are examples of such inflective languages.
In Ephesians 2:8, the Greek verb ἐστε (Strong’s 1510 – εἰμί – eimi – am, are, is) translates to the English verb “are”, and we know ἐστε equals “are” because of the inflection of ἐστε which is both second person, “you”, and plural, “you”; therefore, the Greek verb ἐστε (are) implicitly indicates the sentence’s subject noun “you” for this sentence:
For by grace you are saved through faith
(Ephesians 2:8)
As is clearly evident in Ephesians 2:8, Paul utilized no full grammatical inflective agreement between the words, that is, he did not fully tie objects back to the subject.
There is a principle in Greek grammar which dictates that in the absence of full inflective agreement, then the word order in the sentence becomes paramount, so the word order in Ephesians 2:8 dictates relationship between the words.
Essentially, this principle of Greek grammar word order antecedent placement results in the fact that the phrase “faith and that not of yourselves” is specifically stating that faith is not of man while at the same time specifically stating faith is truly the work of God because of “it is the gift of God”.
As a minimum basis, the word order principle plays a role in the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8.
There is more to the grammatical structure of Ephesians 2:8, such as “God” and “faith” are the only genitive and singular two words in Ephesians 2:8, and both of these words have an antecedent that is neuter, and a neuter can be an antecedent to both masculine words and feminine words, so this grammatical structure binds the words “God” and “faith” together in Ephesians 2:8, and yet there is more to the grammatical structure such that the following is entirely Truth (John 14:6).
We have 3 clauses in Ephesians 2:8.
- by grace you are saved through faith
- and that not of yourselves
- it is the gift of God
The full concept of the “by grace you are saved through faith” clause is “not of yourselves”.
The full concept of the “by grace you are saved through faith” clause is “the gift of God”.
The full concept of the “by grace you are saved through faith” clause is composed of the constituent parts of “grace” and “saved” and “faith”.
When taken as a linguistic whole, Ephesians 2:8 results in this Truth (John 14:6) that the entirety of
- ”grace” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
- ”saved” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
- ”faith” is not a work of man while being the gift of God
by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
One of the grammatical functions of the genitive case is to establish association between two nouns. Paul used the genitive and singular combination for only two words in Ephesians 2:8, and these two words are the masculine “God” and the feminine “faith”.
In Ephesians 2:9, Paul makes it clear that the work of faith is not a work of man, yet the surrounding verses of Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:10 clearly state that faith is the work of God.
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
That's funny as the determinism brought into the church had its origin in the gnostic cults
sorry no
Salvation is not of yourself
Salvation is not of works
Faith remains man's responsibility
Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
see
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. Expositors says: “Paul never says ‘through the faith,’ as if the faith were the ground or procuring cause of the salvation.” Alford says: “It (the salvation) has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith.” The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.” It refers to the general idea of salvation in the immediate context. The translation reads, “and this not out from you as a source, of God (it is) the gift.” That is, salvation is a gift of God. It does not find its source in man. Furthermore, this salvation is not “out of a source of works.” This explains salvation by grace. It is not produced by man nor earned by him. It is a gift from God with no strings tied to it. Paul presents the same truth in Romans 4:4, 5 when speaking of the righteousness which God imputed to Abraham, where he says: “Now, to the one who works, his wages are not looked upon as a favor but as that which is justly or legally due. But to the one who does not work but believes on the One who justifies the impious, his faith is computed for righteousness.”
Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader (vol. 4; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 69–70.
And that. Not faith, but the salvation.
Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 376.
But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145
For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1
1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.
Your first problem is your claim is denied by Greek authorities mention above
your second problem is there is no such rule
When there is a lack of concord such as in eph 2:8 the pronoun takes its antecedent from sense
salvation is the topic, the sense of the passage
Furthermore it is hard to see how Paul who tells the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved
would then argue the qualifying phrases not of yourself and not of works refers to faith rather than salvation
especially when he already confirmed salvation is the gift of god
Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
