An Article on free will

[Biblelesson]

Let me address why I do not hold free will. I'll try not to use any double speak or contradictions It might be hard because I've heard that's all Calvinists can do according to the above posts.

No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" Genesis 50:20

There will was to get rid of Joseph and when they received the silver from the slave trader they thought the desires of the will were successful. They were in for a rude awakening when that famine hit.

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, and so on.

"A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps" Prov. 16:9.

Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps." Jer. 10:23

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The question of man's ability is important. Free-willers like to point out verses that tell men to "choose" or "believe". But God is telling men what they ought to do. Instructing and commanding does not prove that man has the ability to comply.

Indeed, the "ought to" and "commands" were given with the express purpose to make men aware that they are unable to comply.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Rockson]

You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it.

Nobody is saying nor has said that free will is an Almighty Powerful thing. I don't know why you Calvinists keep distorting what's being said.

You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

You're distorting. Distorting what? What's really being said about free will.
So what is free will Biblically speaking. It's the ability to choose for God without the need of irresistible grace.

If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on?

I don't know any non Calvinist who claims will is absolutely potent for everything. Let's admit it. This is just a ridiculous charge made by Calvinists who seek to muddy the waters of reasonable thought.

Want proof of that? If I lined up 1000 Non Calvinists and asked how many of you feel if you took a running jump into the air that by your will you will land on the Moon.....now how many would say they believe that? No one. And you know that's what they would say. So why make false charges of people in what the say about free will. Why not get the context of what they're meaning?

 

[TomL]

Let me address why I do not hold free will. I'll try not to use any double speak or contradictions It might be hard because I've heard that's all Calvinists can do according to the above posts.

No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" Genesis 50:20

There will was to get rid of Joseph and when they received the silver from the slave trader they thought the desires of the will were successful. They were in for a rude awakening when that famine hit.

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, and so on.

"A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps" Prov. 16:9.

Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps." Jer. 10:23

You do realize no one really holds to an absolute free will. It is soft -limited by ones nature

The Five Tenets of Soft Libertarianism

Ultimate responsibility (UR) Ultimate responsibility indicates the ultimate origin of decisions.

Agent causation (AC) A person is the source and origin of his choices.

The principle of alternative possibilities (AP) At crucial times, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing is genuinely available.

The reality of will-setting moments A person does not always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom.

The distinction between freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity The Bible presents freedom as a permission (the freedom of responsibility) and as a power (the freedom of integrity).


From the works of libertarian philosophers such as Hugh McCann, Timothy O’Connor, and particularly Robert Kane, five central tenets of soft libertarianism can be gleaned. Thus equipped, soft libertarianism provides a more complete picture of human choice than soft determinism, and thus a more accurate one. Soft libertarianism, or concurrence, holds that a moral agent has the power to choose in a libertarian sense, but the limits of this ability are decided by his character. While a determinist argues a person’s choice is determined by his character, soft libertarianism contends a person’s character simply determines what sets of choices are available. Outside influences and internal dispositions are factors, but the agent has the ability to take any one of the choices within the set. Possessing libertarian freedom means we genuinely choose, but we dwell in a fallen world so it is not an easy, even, unslanted choice. And we are finite creatures, so the range of choices is limited.

The first tenet of soft libertarianism is ultimate responsibility (UR). Question: how does a person know the ultimate source of his sins or the ultimate source of his salvation? Answer: whoever is ultimately responsible. And the Bible makes clear that we are responsible for our sins and God is responsible for our salvation. We receive all the blame and He receives all the credit. As Kane states, “The basic idea is that the ultimate responsibility lies where the ultimate cause is.” Ultimate “buck-stopping” responsibility indicates ultimate origin.

Kane argues that libertarians make a mistake by focusing too quickly on the criteria of alternative possibilities (AP), i.e., the ability to do otherwise, and contends rather that we should begin with the notion of ultimate responsibility. UR focuses on the grounds or the sources of a person’s actions or choices. UR, rather than AP, should be the initial feature of soft libertarianism. And unless one wants to posit an infinite regress of past causes or (for the theist) he wants the chain of responsibility to go back to God, then he has to understand that moral agents are responsible in an ultimate sense. Kane concludes, “Therein, I believe, lies the core of the traditional ‘problem of free will.’ ”

Significantly, the UR condition does not require that every act be done of our own free will (thus, to an extent “partially vindicating” the compatibilist position). However, it is only a partial vindication, because UR argues that we “could have done otherwise” with respect to some past choices that formed our present character.

UR implies the second tenet: agent causation (AC). If a human being is found guilty when he stands before God, it is because he is the origin of his sins. His sins belong to him—he owns them. This is why everyone outside of Christ is damned. Though we inherited Adam’s corruption and are judged federally in him, in a real way each person is the source and origin of his own rebellion.

When the question is asked, “Why did Adam sin?” the soft libertarian answer is, “Because he chose to sin.” No other or further answer is needed. God placed him in an environment where sin was possible, but God is not the cause of Adam’s sin. In fact, God is not culpable in any way. Satan is certainly guilty of enticing the original couple, but in the final analysis the blame for the actual sin they committed does not fall on him. No, Scripture consistently testifies that “by one man sin entered into the world” (Rom 5:12 KJV).

AC stands in contrast to event causation. Rather than functioning simply as a link in a chain of events, a causal agent operates as the impetus for new causal chains. This creative ability reflects the imago dei. As Robert Saucy states, “The human being is like God in that he has the ability to create thoughts and actions that have no determinative cause outside of the self.” In other words, humans are causal agents with the capacity to originate choices. Saucy goes on to say that this ability constitutes what might be termed “a little citadel of creativity ex nihilo.”

After establishing the tenets of UR and AC, then and only then are we ready to consider the third tenet: the principle of alternative possibilities (AP). A necessary component for liability is that, at a significant point in the chain of events, the ability to choose or refrain from choosing had to genuinely be available.

Compatibilists work from the intuition that if a choice is undetermined then it must be capricious. Indeterminism is equated with inexplicable choices in which an agent’s will is disconnected from the rest of his person, resulting in random and chaotic choices that bewilder even the agent. In this scenario, free will resembles something akin to Tourette syndrome or epilepsy rather than a moral ability. But as determinists admit, in this field intuitions must be questioned.

Kane responds by arguing, “It is a mistake to assume that undetermined means ‘uncaused.’ ” Rather, one must think of the effort to choose and indeterminism as “fused,” not that indeterminism is something that occurs before or after the choice. The fact that the choice is indeterminate doesn’t make it any less the agent’s choice, nor does it make the choice simply a matter of chance or luck. So the objection that undetermined choices are “happenings” is question-begging. It assumes what the objector wishes to prove: that all choices are determined. However, concurrence does not require AP to always be present, which leads to the next point.

The fourth tenet of soft libertarianism is the recognition of will-setting moments. This point sets soft libertarianism apart from libertarianism as generally understood. I argue, like Kane, that libertarian freedom does not entail that a person must always have the ability to choose to the contrary. Certain free choices result in the loss of freedom. An obvious example is someone jumping off a cliff. Halfway down he might change his mind, but he does not possess the ability to choose otherwise. AP does not always have to be present, but only during those times when the choices we make form us into who we are. Only then do we need to be free in a libertarian sense. The “will-setting” or “self-forming” actions occur at those crucial, difficult, or critical junctures.

Consider how we are torn during times of moral indecision. However, whether it is Luther submitting to the authority of Scripture or Pharaoh hardening his heart, those soul-searching moments are also times of self-formation. During these times the outcome is uncertain because our wills are divided by conflicting desires. Yet the decision made at that time affects who we are as persons, so that later similar decisions do not produce a similar conflict. How we choose changes us so that, for better or worse, that choice no longer affects us in the same way. This is the fundamental principle underlying the practice of utilizing the spiritual disciplines for character formation. The reality of will-setting moments implies the next tenet.

The fifth tenet of soft libertarianism is the distinction between the two types of ability: freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity. As stated earlier, freedom can be understood in two ways: as a permission and as an ability. The Bible often presents freedom as a permission, a privilege, or a right to choose. An example of freedom of permission is when Paul instructs that a Christian widow is “free to be married to anyone she wants,” as long as she marries a believer (1 Cor 7:39). This is what we would generally call “liberty,” and the Bible provides many examples of this type of freedom (2 Cor 9:7; Phlm 14).

Freedom of permission presupposes that a person has the second type of freedom, i.e., the ability to make a reasonable choice. This is why the Bible also presents freedom as a power or ability to make a choice. As an ability, the Bible teaches that there are types of ability: freedom of responsibility and freedom of integrity. Freedom of responsibility is the ability to be the originator of a decision, choice, or action. Because a human being is the agent or cause of an action, he is responsible for the moral nature of that action and its consequences. When a situation arises that requires a decision, by definition the freedom of responsibility is the ability to respond. Take for example, if a man hears someone in the lake calling for help. Someone who cannot swim has a different level of responsibility from the one who simply chooses not to respond.

This brings up the notion of freedom of integrity, an important concept to soft libertarianism. Freedom of integrity is the ability to act in a way that is consistent with what a person knows to be the right thing to do. This category consists of the freedom to be the kind of person one wants to be. It is the ability to translate one’s values into action. It speaks of the level of development one must reach to be a fully functioning and mature person. This is a crucial component to our understanding of freedom. More than anything else, the Bible presents freedom to be the ability to do that which is right.

This concept of freedom pays more attention to the concept of “person” than to free will because ascriptions of personal integrity depend on an analysis of personal identity. The doctrine of the “age of accountability” is based on the notion of freedom of integrity. It is the belief that a child must reach a certain point of mental, emotional, and spiritual development before he is accountable.

The notion of the freedom of integrity speaks to the conflict one often has between his values and his desires (see Romans 7). Unless one is completely pathological, sin and failure to live according to his values will result in the loss of peace of mind that comes from living with integrity.

It is easy to understand the freedom of integrity on a trivial level: freedom of integrity enables one to exercise as he should, or to not procrastinate about an assignment. The principle of freedom of integrity indicates that self-discipline is actually a profound type of freedom. As such, the relationship between free will and freedom of personal integrity can be confusing. It is commonplace to be morally responsible but lack freedom of personal integrity. Free will addresses the minimal conditions for responsibility, while freedom of personal integrity goes beyond that.

Here is the truly dangerous thing: a person can have enough freedom to be responsible yet lack (or lose) the freedom of integrity. The Bible says all have the freedom of moral responsibility but not all have the freedom of integrity.

For example, in Rom 7:13–25, Paul describes the condition of being morally responsible but lacking in moral integrity. Other clear examples are the addicted and the pathological. Heroin addicts, compulsive gamblers, and pedophiles may have lost the integrity to say no to these vices, but they are still responsible for their actions. As drug addicts illustrate, it is possible to lose this type of freedom. This loss does not exempt the person from accountability for his actions. Loss of this ability means that a person can still be morally responsible even though he is no longer capable of choosing otherwise. In fact, in the very important area of the ability to respond to God, this is the exact condition of every lost person outside the grace of God.

The progressive sanctification of a believer and his growth in grace can be understood in terms of freedom of integrity. In many ways, the process of being conformed to the image of Christ is an incremental restoration of the freedom of integrity. Sanctification is the restoring of a Christian’s ability to bring his life into conformity with the will of God. This is true freedom—the ability to live a life that is pleasing to God. Christ promises the freedom of integrity (John 8:36), which is the ability to obey the will of God.

The incremental nature of progressive sanctification should be a hint to us about the incremental nature of the freedom of integrity. That is, freedom of integrity is not something which operates like a light switch—all or nothing; on or off. Rather, it seems to be something gained or lost in increments. There appear to be gradations of the freedom of integrity.


Keathley, Kenneth. Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach (pp. 73-79). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

[TomL]

The question of man's ability is important. Free-willers like to point out verses that tell men to "choose" or "believe". But God is telling men what they ought to do. Instructing and commanding does not prove that man has the ability to comply.

Indeed, the "ought to" and "commands" were given with the express purpose to make men aware that they are unable to comply.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Um its a lot more than that

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

They were not born in that condition


Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

There are too many contrary indications for your view to be true

 

[Kermos]

So only the lost sheep of Israel can be saved?

hello

That statement fails on the face of it

you also failed to deal with your own confession

Your admission that all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world in itself is sufficient to refute your view

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

all who do not believe are a part of the world


That is who Christ came to save. So your doctrine of limited atonement is false

You wrote "That statement fails on the face of it" very specifically about the Christ's saying ""I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24); therefore, you do not believe Christ's words, and the Christ refers to such unbelief of the world with "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47).

@civic, you are united with TomL because you heartily agree with your Like of TomL's post.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Biblelesson]

Nobody is saying nor has said that free will is an Almighty Powerful thing. I don't know why you Calvinists keep distorting what's being said.

You're distorting. Distorting what? What's really being said about free will.
So what is free will Biblically speaking. It's the ability to choose for God without the need of irresistible grace.



I don't know any non Calvinist who claims will is absolutely potent for everything. Let's admit it. This is just a ridiculous charge made by Calvinists who seek to muddy the waters of reasonable thought.

Want proof of that? If I lined up 1000 Non Calvinists and asked how many of you feel if you took a running jump into the air that by your will you will land on the Moon.....now how many would say they believe that? No one. And you know that's what they would say. So why make false charges of people in what the say about free will. Why not get the context of what they're meaning?

I hope you feel better getting that off of your chest Brother.

 

[TomL]

You wrote "That statement fails on the face of it" very specifically about the Christ's saying ""I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24); therefore, you do not believe Christ's words, and the Christ refers to such unbelief of the world with "if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (John 12:47).

@civic, you are united with TomL because you heartily agree with your Like of TomL's post.

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

Why have you ignored your own confession?

Your admission that all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world in itself is sufficient to refute your view

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

all who do not believe are a part of the world


That is who Christ came to save. So your doctrine of limited atonement is false

limited atonement is a false doctrine''

Mat 15:9 says nothing about free will - that is eisegesis

Gen 1:1 simply speaks of creation. It adds nothing to this issue

Dan 4:34, 35 does not tell us God determines everything

P:S it was those he came for (Mat 15:24) who did not believe him

 

[Rockson]

I hope you feel better getting that off of your chest Brother.

But isn't everybody getting things off their chest? Aren't you too?

 

[Biblelesson]

But isn't everybody getting things off their chest? Aren't you too?

No I'm spreading the love of Jesus. I hold his love closely to my chest. No Bible believing Christian questions the truth that “God is love” or that “The Lord is gracious and merciful; Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness. The Lord is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.”. This biblical truth is simply undeniable.

 

[TomL]

No I'm spreading the love of Jesus. I hold his love closely to my chest. No Bible believing Christian questions the truth that “God is love” or that “The Lord is gracious and merciful; Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness. The Lord is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.”. This biblical truth is simply undeniable.

To whom?

To those unconditionally reprobate before they were born?

 

[Kermos]

repeating your failed claims over and over changes nothing

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles. He was not stated to choose his disciples which were given to him by the father

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

again reference is made to

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

As for the wedding feast, consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

you are simply begging the question and assuming your theology

You wrote as your closing paragraphs "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles", and Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) which means that your spirit's conveyance "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles as apostles only" is Spiritually false in that your spirit conveys that the apostles are not chosen by Christ as friends (John 15:15-16), yet your "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles" is absolutely true in that there is no choice by man whatsoever toward God.

As to your opening paragraphs conveyance (which you confusedly contradict in your closing paragraph) of "Again Christs choice was restricted to being of his apostles", the following illuminates the falsehood of your conveyance.

The same Apostle Paul who wrote 2 Corinthians 5:20 also wrote "when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace" (Galatians 1:15) and Paul wrote "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" (Ephesians 2:3-4), so Paul, chosen/elect by God for salvation, was formerly of the world, and this concept applies to the following.

As a reminder, the phrase "universal call" is mentioned not in 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Again, the "world" in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is exclusively the people that God will convert into the children of God (future believers) because Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is constrained by 2 Corinthians 1:1.

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1); therefore, Paul is not addressing unconverted/unbelievers. Anyone who responded to Paul is under "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so for one to be be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20) is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Lord Jesus Christ says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (the Word of God, Matthew 22:14).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and in the parable (Matthew 22:2-14), the king represents God, and the king is seen by the guests in the wedding hall. This point is very relevant while reading on below.

The word "faith" or "belief" or "believe" occurs 0 (zero) times in the parable and meaning of the parable as recorded by the Apostle Matthew:

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been summoned, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were summoned were not worthy. ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, summon to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the slaves, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are summoned, but few are chosen.
(Matthew 22:2-14)
​

But look, you wrote "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14, but Lord Jesus mentioned not once anything about a man choosing anything about choosing to do the deed of "put on the wedding dress", so Christ's precious sayings of "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (the Word of God, John 3:21) transform by way of your quoted thoughts as "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in [/u]man[/u]” (the word of TomL).

But wait, there is even more falsehood in your "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14. God causes faith/belief in His believers “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but your quoted thoughts there result in "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the wicked word of TomL).

As recorded in post #1,116, you call "repeat garbage" this wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

King Jesus conveys God's awesome and mighty exclusive control of choosing man unto man being saved from the wrath of God in this parable (Matthew 22:2-14) for this loving King says He chooses man with:

many are summoned, but few are chosen
(the Word of God, Matthew 22:14)

​

Yet, your "consider the various choices here" converted the King's blessed words into "many are summoned, but few cause themselves to believe" (the word of TomL).

Completey visible in your heart's treasure about Matthew 22:2-14 is that you reject Lord Jesus Christ's words about God's Sovereignty in the salvation of man, and the Lord says "he who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

See, the punishment of the people who avoided the summons aa the King sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire (Matthew 22:7), so the King did not choose those people for salvation.

Moreover, the man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes (Matthew 22:11) was summoned by God's chosen people (Matthew 22:9-10), yet that man's sin was not covered by the Righteous Blood of Christ; in other words, the King did not choose that man for salvation because the king said to the slaves, "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13).

God alone provides the wedding dress for the Word of God declares "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20) and "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:56); moreover, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and "Love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

God causes me to write "the King did not choose that man for salvation" because the Word of God says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) at the conclusion of the parable.

So, your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14 steals God's glory in the salvation of man and your heart places the glory for man's salvation squarly in man's "I chose Jesus", yet the Word of God declares "I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

Your thoughts are out of accord the Word of God recorded in Matthew 22:2-14 as demonstrated in the above.

You show no sign of repentance for your addition/subtraction from Revelation 22:17! In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. In your self will, you conveyed that unholy ones are present in Revelation 22:17, TomL, so you added to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe, you bound yourself to TomL's doctrine.

In 1 Corinthians 1:21, "believe" is governed by this blessedly wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)!

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LAMB OF GOD!!!

 

[Biblelesson]

To whom?

To those unconditionally reprobate before they were born?

To the unsaved Tom, they are the only ones that need the gospel of peace.

But it is still impossible for someone to be saved without being elected by God to salvation. Many people, the first time they encounter the doctrine of election, are upset by what seems to them to be a horribly unfair arrangement. Unfortunately, that is where many people end the discussion. A proper biblical view of election, however, leads to the conclusion that God’s choice in predestination is an incredibly loving act.

But it is also true that, in order to be saved, a person must make the choice to believe. Most believers can point to a time in which they considered the claims of Christ and surrendered to Him. We chose to surrender in faith; if we had not chosen to do so, we could not be saved. However, examining Scripture and looking back on the process of our salvation, we recognize God’s hand at work all along the way—we see the conviction of the Holy Spirit; we see how God was changing our unregenerate hearts to enable us to believe; we see the series of events that God orchestrated so that we could hear the gospel.

We are all sinners, and, left to ourselves, we would never choose God. Our initial response to God is to rebel against His love and sovereignty. We do not seek Him (Romans 3:11). We do not want Him to tell us what to do. If we are ever to turn from our sin in repentance and faith, He must initiate the process. Jesus told the crowds who were grumbling at His teaching, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them” (John 6:44). In other words, no one can be saved unless they are elect.

“For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared.” The gospel of peace is the message that Jesus gave to those who trust in Him (John 14:27; Romans 10:15). It comes with the assurance from God that we are His children and nothing can snatch us out of His hands (John 10:29; 1 John 5:13). It outlines clearly what is required to become a child of God (1 Corinthians 15:1–6; John 1:12; Romans 10:8–10). Any other message is a false gospel.
R. C. Sproul

 

[TomL]

You wrote as your closing paragraphs "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles", and Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) which means that your spirit's conveyance "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles as apostles only" is Spiritually false in that your spirit conveys that no one else is chosen by Christ, yet your "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles" is absolutely true in that there is no choice by man whatsoever toward God.

As to your opening paragraph's conveyance (which you confusedly contradict in your closing paragraph) of "Again Christs choice was restricted to being of his ", the following illuminates the falsehood of your conveyance.

The same Apostle Paul who wrote 2 Corinthians 5:20 also wrote "when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace" (Galatians 1:15) and Paul wrote "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" (Ephesians 2:3-4), so Paul, chosen/elect by God for salvation, was formerly of the world, and this concept applies to the following.

As a reminder, the phrase "universal call" is mentioned not in 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Again, the "world" in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is exclusively the people that God will convert into the children of God (future believers) because Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is constrained by 2 Corinthians 1:1.

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1); therefore, Paul is not addressing unconverted/unbelievers. Anyone who responded to Paul is under "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so for one to be be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20) is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Lord Jesus Christ says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (the Word of God, Matthew 22:14).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and in the parable (Matthew 22:2-14), the king represents God, and the king is seen by the guests in the wedding hall. This point is very relevant while reading on below.

The word "faith" or "belief" or "believe" occurs 0 (zero) times in the parable and meaning of the parable as recorded by the Apostle Matthew:

​

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been summoned, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were summoned were not worthy. ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, summon to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the slaves, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are summoned, but few are chosen.​

(Matthew 22:2-14)​

​

But look, you wrote "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14, but Lord Jesus mentioned not once anything about a man choosing anything about choosing to do the deed of "put on the wedding dress", so Christ's precious sayings of "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (the Word of God, John 3:21) transform by way of your quoted thoughts as "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in [/u]man[/u]” (the word of TomL).

But wait, there is even more falsehood in your "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14. God causes faith/belief in His believers “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but your quoted thoughts there result in "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the wicked word of TomL).

As recorded in post #1,116, you call "repeat garbage" this wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

King Jesus conveys God's awesome and mighty exclusive control of choosing man unto man being saved from the wrath of God in this parable (Matthew 22:2-14) for this loving King says He chooses man with:

​

many are summoned, but few are chosen​

(the Word of God, Matthew 22:14)​

​

​

Yet, your "consider the various choices here" converted the King's blessed words into "many are summoned, but few cause themselves to believe" (the word of TomL).

Completey visible in your heart's treasure about Matthew 22:2-14 is that you reject Lord Jesus Christ's words about God's Sovereignty in the salvation of man, and the Lord says "he who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

See, the punishment of the people who avoided the summons aa the King sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire (Matthew 22:7), so the King did not choose those people for salvation.

Moreover, the man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes (Matthew 22:11) was summoned by God's chosen people (Matthew 22:9-10), yet that man's sin was not covered by the Righteous Blood of Christ; in other words, the King did not choose that man for salvation because the king said to the slaves, "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13).

God alone provides the wedding dress for the Word of God declares "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20) and "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:56); moreover, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and "Love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

God causes me to write "the King did not choose that man for salvation" because the Word of God says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) at the conclusion of the parable.

So, your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14 steals God's glory in the salvation of man and your heart places the glory for man's salvation squarly in man's "I chose Jesus", yet the Word of God declares "I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

Your thoughts are out of accord the Word of God recorded in Matthew 22:2-14 as demonstrated in the above.

You show no sign of repentance for your addition/subtraction from Revelation 22:17! In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. In your self will, you conveyed that unholy ones are present in Revelation 22:17, TomL, so you added to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe, you bound yourself to TomL's doctrine.

In 1 Corinthians 1:21, "believe" is governed by this blessedly wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)!

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LAM OF GOD!!!

Christ chose his apostles according to scripture'

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles. He was not stated to choose his disciples which were given to him by the father

Ignoring scripture is not the way to uncover truth

Which is why even Calvinist commentator rebut your claim

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

again reference is made to

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:29 does not support you either

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.



Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

What precisely is it that God waits for us to do, and will be satisfied with our doing? To which Jesus, always ready to meet the sincere inquirer, gives the explicit answer (ver. 29) τοῦτό ἐστι … ἐκεῖνος. If God has sent a messenger it is because there is need of such interposition, and the first duty must be to listen believingly to this messenger.

Marcus Dods, The Gospel of St. John (New York: George H. Doran Company, n.d.), 752.

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you


Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

If there were any truth to your view Paul would not have responded as he did

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

finally consider the reply of the Jews

John 6:28–30 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe

your views are contrary to scripture, contrary to context and contrary even to a number of Calvinist commentators and Greek exegetes

 

[TomL]

To the unsaved Tom, they are the only ones that need the gospel of peace.

All the unsaved as the object of God's and Christs saving desire

1 Timothy 2:3–4 (KJV 1900) — 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

But it is still impossible for someone to be saved without being elected by God to salvation. Many people, the first time they encounter the doctrine of election, are upset by what seems to them to be a horribly unfair arrangement. Unfortunately, that is where many people end the discussion. A proper biblical view of election, however, leads to the conclusion that God’s choice in predestination is an incredibly loving act.

God elects to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And election is in Christ

Ephesians 1:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

which comes about through union with Christ based upon faith

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

But it is also true that, in order to be saved, a person must make the choice to believe. Most believers can point to a time in which they considered the claims of Christ and surrendered to Him. We chose to surrender in faith; if we had not chosen to do so, we could not be saved. However, examining Scripture and looking back on the process of our salvation, we recognize God’s hand at work all along the way—we see the conviction of the Holy Spirit; we see how God was changing our unregenerate hearts to enable us to believe; we see the series of events that God orchestrated so that we could hear the gospel.

Regeneration is the impartation of life and it always follows after faith

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[Kermos]

still posting repeat failed comments while not addressing rebuttal

You failed to show christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

PS Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

You and @civic (by Like) contradict the Christ with your "Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples" for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!

You propounded "Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ" respecting John 15:16-20, so in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were with Lord Jesus when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were witnesses to the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).
​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you including that guy 2, 000 years from now named TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose only you apostles" (the self-contradictory word of TomL).

Regarding the "believe" recorded in John 3:16, the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) in response to the people who asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10).
​

You apply the concept of "garbage" to the very Word of God quoted above as recorded in post #1,116, and no Christian calls the word of God "garbage".

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[civic]

You and @civic (by Like) contradict the Christ with your "Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples" for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!

You propounded "Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ" respecting John 15:16-20, so in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were with Lord Jesus when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were witnesses to the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you including that guy 2, 000 years from now named TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose only you apostles" (the self-contradictory word of TomL).

Regarding the "believe" recorded in John 3:16, the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) in response to the people who asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10).​

​

You apply the concept of "garbage" to the very Word of God quoted above as recorded in post #1,116, and no Christian calls the word of God "garbage".

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

Try quoting what I actually said instead of assuming it

 

[TomL]

You and @civic (by Like) contradict the Christ with your "Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples" for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!

You propounded "Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ" respecting John 15:16-20, so in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your "Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion" as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter "men who have accompanied us all the time" (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were with Lord Jesus when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were witnesses to the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

​

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ's "you" in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses "you" to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ's salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King's decree is a terror.

You answered "Yes" to the question of "Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?" as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus' first two "you" occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus' second two "you" occurrences apply "exclusively to the apostles":

​

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:15-16).​

​

Your heart's treasure results in "I have called you including that guy 2, 000 years from now named TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose only you apostles" (the self-contradictory word of TomL).

Regarding the "believe" recorded in John 3:16, the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) in response to the people who asked Jesus “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29).

Lord Jesus eliminates “the works of man” (John 6:28) entirely from the equation with His Powerful response “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and the Apostle Paul is in accord with Jesus saying that God controls faith/belief unto salvation inside of man with absolutely no input by man:

​

by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10).​

​

You apply the concept of "garbage" to the very Word of God quoted above as recorded in post #1,116, and no Christian calls the word of God "garbage".

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

Same repeat nonsense ignoring the facts extolled multiple times

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

and even Calvinist commentators rebuke your view

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

Notice the reference to Luke 6:13

13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:


True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.


hello even Calvin

consider the various choices here in the wedding feast

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

Yiu simply lump them all together assuming there is bit one cholicef

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

 

[Kermos]

Scripture and lexicons and commentators refuted you


Receive lambano is an aorist active indicative 3rd person verb

Lambano

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b;

You will note BAGD gives a meaning of to receive someone in the sense of recognizing their authority specifically citing John 1:12

The only lie here is the one you keep propagating ignoring the active voice and the definition of BAGD

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

the verse itself defines what it is to receive Christ

who believed in his name,
This matches perfectly with BDAG
Believing on Jesus Christ gives one the right to be made a child of God
Galatians 3:26 (ESV) — 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.

But to as many as received him. That none may be retarded by this stumbling-block, that the Jews despised and rejected Christ, the Evangelist exalts above heaven the godly who believe in him; for he says that by faith they obtain this glory of being reckoned the sons of God

John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 1; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 40.

The ὅσοι … primarily refers to the ἐκλογή among the Jews who have just been spoken of: but also, by implication, being opposed to both ὁ κόσμος and οἱ ἴδιοι, the ἐκλογή in all the world.
ἔλαβον = παρέλαβον above—as many as recognized Him as that which He was—the Word of God and Light of men.


Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.

BTW No one received christ in the form of the indwelling spirit until after Pentecost

John 1:11- He came to His own and His own did not RECIEVE Him.

John 1:12 in a single verse combines receiving and believing that is done by the very ones who are saved.

Those who receive the Son and Believe in the Son are the ones as a result of believing/receiving- become children of God.

John 1:12- Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Galatians 3:26- “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

conclusion: One becomes a child of God after believing/receiving Christ.

About "receiving":

Man is not the cause of man receiving Christ (Luke 12:57).

God is the cause of man receiving Christ (John 1:12-13).

We Christians actively in thankfulness receive Christ!
​

About "believing":

Man is not the cause of man believing in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10).

God is the cause of man believing in Christ (John 6:29).

We Christians joyfully believe in Christ!
​

All glory to King Jesus reigning on His Throne in the eternal Kingdom of God for His Salvation of man!!! Amen!!!

Neither of you can pray the above in Truth (John 14:6) because you glory in your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) "I chose to believe In Christ" which leavens your testimony.

We Christians receive saving belief/faith from God our Savior (John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10)!

TomL, your heart's illegitimate linguistics redefine "receive" into a thing done by a recipient to a recipient instead of the legitimate linguistic definition of "receive" being a thing done by a source to a recipient; therefore, you preach confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) and folly in your post 1 of 2 as exposed in the following.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.

In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.

The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".

Let's follow the blessed chain linking these people of whom John wrote which is the "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) links with "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) links with "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9).

Each of these are exactly the same people:

• "many as received Him"
• "children of God"
• "believe in His name"
• "born of God"

See that John explicitly excludes "the will of man" as the cause for all of these.

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.

Again, here is the passage:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)

Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.

The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".

The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).

The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Kermos]

No scripture states that God imparted man with free-will choice towards God.

The Christ of us Christians says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as well as *]"What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this - relationship verse John 15:20), so all the wonderful blessings of the Word of God mentioned above are to all Christians, every disciple of Christ, in all time. The Word of God is marvelous!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!