An Article on free will

[Kermos]

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

You wrote as your closing paragraph "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles, and Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) which means no choice toward Christ existed for the apostles, so your "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles" is absolutely true in that there is no choice by man whatsoever toward God.

As to your opening paragraph's conveyance (which you confusedly contradict in your closing paragraph) of "Again Christs choice was restricted to being of his ", the following illuminates the falsehood of your conveyance.

The same Apostle Paul who wrote 2 Corinthians 5:20 also wrote "when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace" (Galatians 1:15) and Paul wrote "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" (Ephesians 2:3-4), so Paul, chosen/elect by God for salvation, was formerly of the world, and this concept applies to the following.

As a reminder, the phrase "universal call" is mentioned not in 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Again, the "world" in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is exclusively the people that God will convert into the children of God (future believers) because Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is constrained by 2 Corinthians 1:1.

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1); therefore, Paul is not addressing unconverted/unbelievers. Anyone who responded to Paul is under "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so for one to be be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20) is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Lord Jesus Christ says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (the Word of God, Matthew 22:14).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and in the parable (Matthew 22:2-14), the king represents God, and the king is seen by the guests in the wedding hall. This point is very relevant while reading on below.

The word "faith" or "belief" or "believe" occurs 0 (zero) times in the parable and meaning of the parable as recorded by the Apostle Matthew:

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been summoned, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were summoned were not worthy. ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, summon to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the slaves, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are summoned, but few are chosen.
(Matthew 22:2-14)
​

But look, you wrote "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14, but Lord Jesus mentioned not once anything about a man choosing anything about choosing to do the deed of "put on the wedding dress", so Christ's precious sayings of "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (the Word of God, John 3:21) transform by way of your quoted thoughts as "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in [/u]man[/u]” (the word of TomL).

But wait, there is even more falsehood in your "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14. God causes faith/belief in His believers “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but your quoted thoughts there result in "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the wicked word of TomL).

As recorded in post #1,116, you call "repeat garbage" this wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

King Jesus conveys God's awesome and mighty exclusive control of choosing man unto man being saved from the wrath of God in this parable (Matthew 22:2-14) for this loving King says He chooses man with:

many are summoned, but few are chosen
(the Word of God, Matthew 22:14)

​

Yet, your "consider the various choices here" converted the King's blessed words into "many are summoned, but few cause themselves to believe" (the word of TomL).

Completey visible in your heart's treasure about Matthew 22:2-14 is that you reject Lord Jesus Christ's words about God's Sovereignty in the salvation of man, and the Lord says "he who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

See, the punishment of the people who avoided the summons aa the King sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire (Matthew 22:7), so the King did not choose those people for salvation.

Moreover, the man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes (Matthew 22:11) was summoned by God's chosen people (Matthew 22:9-10), yet that man's sin was not covered by the Righteous Blood of Christ; in other words, the King did not choose that man for salvation because the king said to the slaves, "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13).

God alone provides the wedding dress for the Word of God declares "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20) and "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:56); moreover, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and "Love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

God causes me to write "the King did not choose that man for salvation" because the Word of God says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) at the conclusion of the parable.

So, your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14 steals God's glory in the salvation of man and your heart places the glory for man's salvation squarly in man's "I chose Jesus", yet the Word of God declares "I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

Your thoughts are out of accord the Word of God recorded in Matthew 22:2-14 as demonstrated in the above.

You show no sign of repentance for your addition/subtraction from Revelation 22:17! In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. In your self will, you conveyed that unholy ones are present in Revelation 22:17, TomL, so you added to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe, you bound yourself to TomL's doctrine.

In 1 Corinthians 1:21, "believe" is governed by this blessedly wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)!

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE PRECIOUS LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[TomL]

You wrote as your closing paragraph "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles, and Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) which means no choice toward Christ existed for the apostles, so your "In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles" is absolutely true in that there is no choice by man whatsoever toward God.

As to your opening paragraph's conveyance (which you confusedly contradict in your closing paragraph) of "Again Christs choice was restricted to being of his ", the following illuminates the falsehood of your conveyance.

The same Apostle Paul who wrote 2 Corinthians 5:20 also wrote "when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace" (Galatians 1:15) and Paul wrote "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" (Ephesians 2:3-4), so Paul, chosen/elect by God for salvation, was formerly of the world, and this concept applies to the following.

As a reminder, the phrase "universal call" is mentioned not in 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Again, the "world" in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is exclusively the people that God will convert into the children of God (future believers) because Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is constrained by 2 Corinthians 1:1.

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1); therefore, Paul is not addressing unconverted/unbelievers. Anyone who responded to Paul is under "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so for one to be be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20) is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Lord Jesus Christ says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (the Word of God, Matthew 22:14).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1), and in the parable (Matthew 22:2-14), the king represents God, and the king is seen by the guests in the wedding hall. This point is very relevant while reading on below.

The word "faith" or "belief" or "believe" occurs 0 (zero) times in the parable and meaning of the parable as recorded by the Apostle Matthew:

​

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to summon those who had been summoned to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been summoned, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were summoned were not worthy. ‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, summon to the wedding feast.’ Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the slaves, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are summoned, but few are chosen.​

(Matthew 22:2-14)​

​

But look, you wrote "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14, but Lord Jesus mentioned not once anything about a man choosing anything about choosing to do the deed of "put on the wedding dress", so Christ's precious sayings of "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (the Word of God, John 3:21) transform by way of your quoted thoughts as "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in [/u]man[/u]” (the word of TomL).

But wait, there is even more falsehood in your "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14. God causes faith/belief in His believers “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), but your quoted thoughts there result in "This is the work of man that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the wicked word of TomL).

As recorded in post #1,116, you call "repeat garbage" this wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

King Jesus conveys God's awesome and mighty exclusive control of choosing man unto man being saved from the wrath of God in this parable (Matthew 22:2-14) for this loving King says He chooses man with:

​

many are summoned, but few are chosen​

(the Word of God, Matthew 22:14)​

​

​

Yet, your "consider the various choices here" converted the King's blessed words into "many are summoned, but few cause themselves to believe" (the word of TomL).

Completey visible in your heart's treasure about Matthew 22:2-14 is that you reject Lord Jesus Christ's words about God's Sovereignty in the salvation of man, and the Lord says "he who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

See, the punishment of the people who avoided the summons aa the King sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire (Matthew 22:7), so the King did not choose those people for salvation.

Moreover, the man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes (Matthew 22:11) was summoned by God's chosen people (Matthew 22:9-10), yet that man's sin was not covered by the Righteous Blood of Christ; in other words, the King did not choose that man for salvation because the king said to the slaves, "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13).

God alone provides the wedding dress for the Word of God declares "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20) and "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:56); moreover, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and "Love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

God causes me to write "the King did not choose that man for salvation" because the Word of God says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) at the conclusion of the parable.

So, your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) "consider the various choices here" regarding Matthew 22:2-14 steals God's glory in the salvation of man and your heart places the glory for man's salvation squarly in man's "I chose Jesus", yet the Word of God declares "I am YHWH, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

Your thoughts are out of accord the Word of God recorded in Matthew 22:2-14 as demonstrated in the above.

You show no sign of repentance for your addition/subtraction from Revelation 22:17! In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. In your self will, you conveyed that unholy ones are present in Revelation 22:17, TomL, so you added to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19). Joe, you bound yourself to TomL's doctrine.

In 1 Corinthians 1:21, "believe" is governed by this blessedly wonderful Word of God “This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)!

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE PRECIOUS LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

repeating your failed claims over and over changes nothing

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles. He was not stated to choose his disciples which were given to him by the father

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

again reference is made to

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

As for the wedding feast, consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

you are simply begging the question and assuming your theology

 

[Kermos]

Which is unrelated to anything you do, think or say in Calvinism

They call that unconditional election whether you like that definition or not.

I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Christian for I believe in the Christ of us Christians who says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[civic]

Yes

Lexicon
Scripture
some Calvinists

The Trifecta

 

[Kermos]

If Jesus choosing us is what saves us why did he need to go to the cross? Why did he say if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."? Does all Men mean just the elect?

He didn't say if I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw you and you and you the rest of you guys you're out of luck.

You ask “If Jesus choosing us is what saves us why did he need to go to the cross”, but God answered Job “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding” (Job 38:4).

God does as God Wills for God’s good pleasure to the glory of God.

Lord Jesus says "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32).

You are absolutely correct with your “He didn't say if I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw you and you and you the rest of you guys you're out of luck".

He also didn't say "if I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw you so that you can choose Me".

Cyrus, it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” (Romans 14:11).

See that King Jesus was crucified, and He is risen! I know that Christ's chosen persons unto salvation as well as the enemies of Christ will bow the knee to the King of kings and the Lord of lords; therefore, no one escapes this "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE YESHUA'S HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Biblelesson]

Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God’s will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will.

He is omnipotent. He “...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Eph. 1:11

God’s will is irresistible, fixed, and everlasting: “...For who hath resisted his will?” Rom. 9:19

It is everlasting because God does not change: “For I am the Lord, I change not...” Mal. 3:6

The Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, is the same yesterday, today, and forever Heb. 13:8

With God there “...is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” James 1:17

God’s will cannot be changed for the better because God cannot be better. It cannot be changed for the worse because God cannot be less than He is. He is the Almighty.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God’s will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will.

He is omnipotent. He “...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Eph. 1:11

God’s will is irresistible, fixed, and everlasting: “...For who hath resisted his will?” Rom. 9:19

It is everlasting because God does not change: “For I am the Lord, I change not...” Mal. 3:6

The Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, is the same yesterday, today, and forever Heb. 13:8

With God there “...is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” James 1:17

God’s will cannot be changed for the better because God cannot be better. It cannot be changed for the worse because God cannot be less than He is. He is the Almighty.

This is a huge problem for free-willers. They love to quote "God is not willing that any should perish". But most DO perish, which would mean man's will is more potent than God's will. They simply don't understand "any". The question is, "any of whom"?

 

[Rockson]

God does as God Wills for God’s good pleasure to the glory of God.

Problem is Calvinists pull that statement out of their arsenal, "to the glory of God" to give an appearance they've said something so honoring to God when they really have been extremely dishonoring in the way they use it. That which brings glory to God is that of which points to something which makes God appear in a positive light. To say God ordains EVERYTHING that would include that which is diabolical and insidious and to claim it's for God's glory is to smear the noble nature of the Creator.

 

[Biblelesson]

This is a huge problem for free-willers. They love to quote "God is not willing that any should perish". But most DO perish, which would mean man's will is more potent than God's will. They simply don't understand "any". The question is, "any of whom"?

After reading your reply this verse from the Bible comes to mind.

"You will not come to Me — that you might have life." John 5:40

Usually, when the text is used against Calvinism, one runs into these three problems.

First, that man has a will.

Secondly, that he is entirely free.

Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved.

Anyone who believes that man does of his own free-will, turn to God — may not have been taught of God correctly, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power — but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.

First, He is in control of the salvation process not us. He tells us this about it.
That every man is dead, because He says: "You will not come to me, that you might have life."

Secondly, that there is life in Jesus Christ: "You will not come to me, that you might have life."

Thirdly, that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it: "You will not come to me, that you might have life;" implying that all who go will have life.

And fourthly, the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ, for the text says, "You will not come to me, that you might have life."

 

[TomL]

The Trifecta

Yep that Calvinist's position is that weak

 

[TomL]

I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Christian for I believe in the Christ of us Christians who says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!!!

still posting repeat failed comments while not addressing rebuttal

You failed to show christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

PS Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

 

[Rockson]

This is a huge problem for free-willers.

To acknowledge one is a free-willer simply means they recognize God created creatures with liberty and that's what LOVE does. But here's the bottom line. Calvinist philosophy doesn't KNOW what LOVE does. Sorry but it just doesn't.

They love to quote "God is not willing that any should perish". But most DO perish, which would mean man's will is more potent than God's will.

God is more LOVING then you're choosing with your will to accept. I will say this though if it makes you happy to know God's will can override yours then read on. God's will is to hold you someday to give an account for why you sought to change his gracious kind character into something not even recognized when looking at the scriptures. It won't matter then if you will is against him demanding such an account. An a account will have to be given whether they you or whosoever else like it or not.

 

[TedT]

To acknowledge one is a free-willer simply means they recognize God created creatures with liberty and that's what LOVE does. But here's the bottom line. Calvinist philosophy doesn't KNOW what LOVE does. Sorry but it just doesn't.

Yes,
they know a lot about theology but they don't know GOD at all.

 

[civic]

To acknowledge one is a free-willer simply means they recognize God created creatures with liberty and that's what LOVE does. But here's the bottom line. Calvinist philosophy doesn't KNOW what LOVE does. Sorry but it just doesn't.

God is more LOVING then you're choosing with your will to accept. I will say this though if it makes you happy to know God's will can override yours then read on. God's will is to hold you someday to give an account for why you sought to change his gracious kind character into something not even recognized when looking at the scriptures. It won't matter then if you will is against him demanding such an account. An a account will have to be given whether they you or whosoever else like it or not.

Well said Rockson

 

[TomL]

Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God’s will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will.

He is omnipotent. He “...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Eph. 1:11

God’s will is irresistible, fixed, and everlasting: “...For who hath resisted his will?” Rom. 9:19

It is everlasting because God does not change: “For I am the Lord, I change not...” Mal. 3:6

The Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, is the same yesterday, today, and forever Heb. 13:8

With God there “...is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” James 1:17

God’s will cannot be changed for the better because God cannot be better. It cannot be changed for the worse because God cannot be less than He is. He is the Almighty.

Isaiah 30:9–15 (ESV) — 9 For they are a rebellious people, lying children, children unwilling to hear the instruction of the LORD; 10 who say to the seers, “Do not see,” and to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us what is right; speak to us smooth things, prophesy illusions, 11 leave the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel.” 12 Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, “Because you despise this word and trust in oppression and perverseness and rely on them, 13 therefore this iniquity shall be to you like a breach in a high wall, bulging out and about to collapse, whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant; 14 and its breaking is like that of a potter’s vessel that is smashed so ruthlessly that among its fragments not a shard is found with which to take fire from the hearth, or to dip up water out of the cistern.” 15 For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, “In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and in trust shall be your strength.” But you were unwilling,
Luke 7:30 (ESV) — 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 7:17 (ESV) — 17 If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

 

[TedT]

No law restrains God’s will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will.

ImCo:
FOR THOSE WHO WOULD INTERPRET THIS TO MEAN that HE is above HIS Law, then no. GOD's character restrains HIM; HE is not above HIMself.

HIS sovereignty SERVES HIS purpose of love and life, it does not allow HIM to work against HIS own purpose just because HE supposedly can. HE cannot do or create evil or evil people by any means.

Light cannot create darkness:
SOME interpretations means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. It is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Standard Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.Berean Literal Bible

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
James 3:12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. SOME theologians claim a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

Some are seduced by the logic that to be created less than GOD must mean we are sinful in some way by our creation but that logic is false.

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,
OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil.

 

[TedT]

This is a huge problem for free-willers. They love to quote "God is not willing that any should perish". But most DO perish, which would mean man's will is more potent than God's will. They simply don't understand "any". The question is, "any of whom"?

On Earth, ANY refers to any of HIS sinful elect. But that it also means that HE was also unwilling to create any person of HIS creation just to perish has to be considered.

HIS unwillingness to create the damned and the lost when some are lost and damned proves to me HE gave us a free will, free even to go against HIS creative purpose for us all to heavenly life as HIS Bride and also free to choose to reject HIS definitions of reality as lies and to rebuke HIM as a false god, becoming condemned.

IF HIS WILL was that HIS creation should choose by faith (an unproven hope) to accept HIS claims to be our creator GOD and HIS gospel of the Son as the only Saviour from evil, OR to rebuke HIS CLAIMS AS LIES, then the choice to rebuke HIM as a false god does NOT mean the creature's will is more potent than GOD's will at all since OUR uncoerced, uncreated, choices fulfill HIS will that we choose our eternal fates for ourselves from our hopes.

 

[TedT]

First, that man has a will.

Secondly, that he is entirely free.

Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved.

ImCo:
The fact that our Lord told us that as sinners we are all enslaved, addicted, to evil and He does not babble untruths as true, then our enslavement to evil has to be the truth and have real meaning...obviously destroying the ability of the sinner (all men) to make a choice free of evil by a decision remotely able to be called a free will decision!

Yes, I agree that at our creation your description of 'man' must have been true but not as sinners...proving to me that our conception as sinners on earth was our being sown, moved, into this world, not a creation into it, Matt 13:36-39, as sinners, some condemned, already, Jn 3:18.

 

[Kermos]

Repeating your refuted arguments over and over does not make them any stronger

Even Calvinist authors can be seen to reject your claim

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.



Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

as well as others

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

We know scripture does as well

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

including the fact God/Christ had to harden men/hide truth to prevent belief

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




No i stated unconditional election to salvation does not exist


We already saw both scripture and your own peers refute you

Since God caused me to quote the unadulterated Word of God, and you convey that you have refuted what God has caused me to quote, then the following are all effectually true statements.

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “I chose you out of the world” (Lord Jesus Christ,John 15:19).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ,John 6:29).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57).

No Christian believes that he successfully refuted Lord Jesus Christ!

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! SOME DAY, OH LORD, EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO YOU, THE RIGHTEOUS HOLY KING OF GLORY!!!

 

[TomL]

Since God caused me to quote the unadulterated Word of God, and you convey that you have refuted what God has caused me to quote, then the following are all effectually true statements.

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “I chose you out of the world” (Lord Jesus Christ,John 15:19).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ,John 6:29).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

TomL conveys "I successfully refured" “why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57).

No Christian believes that he successfully refuted Lord Jesus Christ!

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! SOME DAY, OH LORD, EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO YOU, THE RIGHTEOUS HOLY KING OF GLORY!!!

God did not cause you to do anything. You failed to rebut these
You failed to show christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

PS Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.

you are just endlessly repeating yourself and failing to deal with rebuttal