An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There is a great theological misunderstanding relative to Isa 45:7.
While I believe "calamity" is a "neutral" understanding it not entirely accurate.
The facts are indisputable. Ultimately, evil is fabricated within the context of God's Sovereignty. It would not exist unless God allowed it to exist. There will come a day wherein we are promised that evil will no longer exist for us.
God Himself is not the fabricator of evil. It is contrary to His Character.
For the unwilling, there is Grace and consideration in God tolerating the foolishness of mankind. Longsuffering has no meaning otherwise.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
What do you mean by we are in Adam or in Christ?
Are you saying that we each are responsible for Adam's sin?
If so, please post where it states that we are each responsible for another man's sins....
And Romans 5:12 is what's in question so it would have to be a different verse.
One verse does not doctrine make.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
My spirit died when I became aware of sin and sinned.
We don't know the age ....
I'm speaking about the age of accountability.
This is when God begins to hold us responsible for our sins.
From this point we learn from Jesus when He was speaking to Nicodemus:
We must be born again --- from above.
John 3:3, 5
Then we receive God's spirit back because sinfulness cannot exist in the same body with the Holy Spirit.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Adam became spiritually dead.
Adam also now faced death.
Genesis 3:22
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-
After Adam sinned, he no longer had the gift of immortality.
God banished him lest he should eat of the tree of life and live forever.
Adam would now have to die.
As you correctly stated,,,"to keep him from living forever with a spirit dead in sin,"
So I believe we agree that Adam had been meant to live forever.
You don't believe that since he now must die, this does not cause a biological change in him?
You believe that if a person can live forever, his DNA and cell structure is exactly the same as that
of a person that must die...whose death is written code in his DNA and whose cells will eventually not reproduce.
I do believe I stated this...
and also it affected other areas.
The unanswerable question..unless one is calvinist in theology...then we say God created sin.
But since we are not calvinists, the best answer is that satan tricked Eve into eating of the forbidden fruit.
Then Adam also ate (the reason could be debated)....
and their choice of obeying satan instead of God changed everything.
You replied "Nah!" to this statement of mine:
Is our relationship to God the same as it was between Him and Adam prior to the fall?
No. It has been damaged.
Is our relationship with other persons the same?
No. Even Adam's relationship with Eve became difficult due to the curses of God on both of them.
Adam was the keeper of the Garden. He named the plants and animals.
Has our relationship with nature changed since the fall?
Yes. We experience droughts, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.
And our relationship with our very selves.
We worry, we get sick, we lack peace, some are mentally disabled, etc.
The fall of Adam affected everything.
What about the above statement seems silly to you?
Or incorrect?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”
Johann
Well-known member
I was rather hoping for a better response from you.
The "eph ho" is where scholars are still battling-THE sin-personified-THE death-personified and the 2ndAorist, observe the eis pantas, humans, so commentaries is not going to help here, unless you want to be very selective.
"because all sinned" All humans sin in Adam corporately (i.e., inherited a sinful state and a sinful propensity.) Because of this each person chooses to sin personally and repeatedly. The Bible is emphatic that all humans are sinners both corporately and individually (cf. 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Psa_14:1-2; Psa_130:3; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_9:17; Isa_53:6; Rom_3:9-18; Rom_3:23; Rom_5:18; Rom_11:32; Gal_3:22; 1Jn_1:8-10).
For that all have sinned.—.Rather, for that, or because, all sinned—i.e., not by their own individual act, but implicitly in Adam’s transgression. They were summed up, and included in him as the head and representative of the race.
Ellicott
You may disagree, doesn't matter to me.
J.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'd like to see a "scholar" establish the sin of Abel. Please do. I'd love to see it.
Abel was unjustly murdered. It was the sin of another that caused the death of Abel and it wasn't Adam.
You don't need an "aorist" to understand this issue. It is not an issue of language. It is an issue of reason. Languages communicate thoughts and reason. Thoughts and reasons are identical across many many different languages. It is why we can know other languages through similar constructs of thoughts. Living lets us know one another across the boundaries of human language. Few try today to bridge such gaps. They just "google" and use the flawed understanding of others without putting forth much effort themselves. Reason is what is needed today. It is what is lacking. Meditation and reflecting upon our surroundings instead of only hearing our own voice is essential.
A few things you should rightfully recognize. Paul is quoting a time much later than the world before the flood.
Paul is quoting principles in Habakkuk 1. A member of the "twelve prophets" in the Greek OT.
Hab 1:4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
In Romans 3:10 Paul is quoting Psalm 14
Psa 14:1 To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.
It is a direct appeal to when mankind abandon God before the flood.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It has nothing to do with "corporally". Adam had a choice to sin himself. He did.
Johann
Well-known member
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Adam willfully sinned. Unlike eve who was deceived.
That's why death passed to all men. for as in Adam all die. even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Jesus took care of the sin issue on the cross..
He is taking care of the death problem individually
He who believes will not be condemned. He who remains in unbelief are condemned already
That's why death passed to all men. for as in Adam all die. even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Jesus took care of the sin issue on the cross..
He is taking care of the death problem individually
He who believes will not be condemned. He who remains in unbelief are condemned already
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Come on. You can do better than that. Why resist the Truth?
Innocence is sinlessness.
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Lets have this conversation. Others can benefit from this.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Death already existed before Adam. Adam was formed from ashes. Dust. Death.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
You shouldn't believe all these "narratives" that came from those who killed the prophets and apostles.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Um impossible. Death is a result is sin there was no sin before Adam
I believe the word. You should to
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
We can come at this from several angles. I'll start with your lie.
You have no evidence that Abel sinned. How did Abel sin?
Why are you lying about Abel? Do you expect to see Abel one day? How are you going face Abel with your false charges?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Sure there was. What was Adam formed from?
I believe it more than you do. I know it better than you. You know what you're told. Nothing more. When you come to review the Scriptures you do so having already accepted what you've been told.
I don't. I go where the information leads me. I know how to construct an argument. I abandoned such teachings when I was a young man after I realized I had been lied to. I then went on a mission to learn what I read and to be able to accurately defend what is actually said.
So do something everyone else refuses to do. Have this argument with me. Don't lie about others. Only use the evidence of the Scriptures and reason. Prove your claims.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Do you include the innocent in "all have sinned"?
Which seems obvious..... then prove it. Establish the sin of the innocent.
Johann
Well-known member
You take sin lightly.
Noah — “Righteous” but Drunken and Exposed
Righteousness: Genesis 6:9 – “Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.”
Sin: Genesis 9:20–21 – “Noah… drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.”
Though Noah is described as righteous, he ends up in a state of disgrace, which leads to a familial curse (on Canaan, via Ham). Jewish tradition debates whether this was a sin, but the context strongly suggests impropriety and a break in dignity.
2. Abraham — Man of Faith, but Deceptive
Righteousness: Genesis 15:6 – “He believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”
Sin: Genesis 12:11–13 and 20:1–2 – Twice Abraham lies about Sarah being his sister, endangering her and deceiving others.
These episodes are not condemned directly in the narrative, but they show Abraham’s willingness to mislead and protect himself at the expense of truth and even his wife’s honor.
3. Moses — The Servant of the LORD, but Disobedient
Righteousness: Numbers 12:7 – “My servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house.”
Sin: Numbers 20:10–12 – Moses strikes the rock at Meribah contrary to God’s command; God punishes him by forbidding entry into the Promised Land.
Psalm 106:32–33 interprets this as rashness and disobedience. Moses himself confesses his fault in Deut 3:26.
4. David — A Man After God’s Heart, yet an Adulterer and Murderer
Righteousness: 1 Samuel 13:14 – “The LORD has sought out a man after his own heart.”
Sin: 2 Samuel 11 – David commits adultery with Bathsheba and orchestrates the murder of her husband Uriah.
Psalm 51 is David’s confessional lament, and 2 Sam 12:13 records his repentance after Nathan’s rebuke.
This is the clearest and most acknowledged case of a “righteous” man whose sin was publicly condemned, punished, and forgiven.
5. Job — Blameless, but Later Rebuked for Presumption
Righteousness: Job 1:1 – “Job was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.”
Sin: Job 38–42 – God rebukes Job for speaking without knowledge; Job repents in dust and ashes (Job 42:6).
Though Job is not said to have committed a moral transgression, his words are judged as presumptuous (cf. Job 40:2, “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?”).
6. Jacob — Patriarch, but Deceiver
Righteousness: Genesis 35:9–12 – God reaffirms His covenant with Jacob, renaming him Israel.
Sin: Genesis 27 – Jacob deceives his father Isaac, at his mother’s urging, to obtain the blessing meant for Esau.
Though God’s covenant proceeds through Jacob, the narrative does not conceal his trickery and manipulation.
7. Solomon — Wise King, but an Idolater in Old Age
Righteousness: 1 Kings 3:12 – God gives Solomon unmatched wisdom.
Sin: 1 Kings 11:4–10 – Solomon’s heart is turned after other gods; “his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God.”
Solomon's apostasy leads directly to the division of the kingdom (1 Kings 11:11–13).
8. Hezekiah — Faithful King, but Prideful
Righteousness: 2 Kings 18:5 – “There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, before or after.”
Sin: 2 Chronicles 32:25–26 – “But Hezekiah did not make return according to the benefit done to him, for his heart was proud.”
God’s wrath came upon Judah temporarily because of Hezekiah’s pride, though he humbled himself afterward.
9. Jonah — Prophet of the LORD, but Disobedient and Angry
Righteousness: Commissioned by God as a prophet to Nineveh.
Sin: Jonah 1:3 – “But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.”
Jonah resists God’s mercy to Gentiles and desires judgment instead of repentance (Jonah 4:1–3).
Despite being God’s chosen instrument, Jonah’s selfishness and disobedience are front and center.
Summary Table
Name Declared Righteous Specific Sin Mentioned Scriptural Reference
Noah Gen 6:9 Drunkenness Gen 9:21
Abraham Gen 15:6 Deception Gen 12, 20
Moses Num 12:7 Disobedience Num 20:10–12
David 1 Sam 13:14 Adultery, murder 2 Sam 11
Job Job 1:1 Presumption Job 38–42
Jacob Gen 35:9–12 Deception Gen 27
Solomon 1 Kgs 3:12 Idolatry 1 Kgs 11
Hezekiah 2 Kgs 18:5 Pride 2 Chr 32:25–26
Jonah Jonah 1:1–2 Rebellion, anger Jonah 1–4
I can give you many more examples but this should suffice.
We are NOT born sinless into this world.
J.
