Do you believe that you can lose your salvation and so perish?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Are you talking about 1 Cor 2:14? Who do you think the audience is? Paul is addressing regenerate believers. He is exhorting them to abide by the Spirit of God and not to fall back into being a ψυχικὸς (purely soulish) man. Massive failure on your part to understand who Paul is talking to and talking about on your part.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural (ψυχικὸς) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In fact, man in general has been blessed with the spirit of man as a lamp of Jehovah. Man is not as spiritually dumb as a door knob as Calvinists make him out to be:
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the Word of Jehovah for Israel, says Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
civic
Well-known member
Like I say determinism is fatalism.
Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
- Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations. - Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Nope which has nothing to do with free will or Calvinism.
What you call "Calvinism" is compatibilism, which, as your copy and paste shows, is different from fatalism. Your own uncited quote refutes you.Like I say determinism is fatalism.
Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.
- Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.- Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
Of course it has to do with so-called "free will"! If you have free will, then you can walk away from God, at any time, and end up in hell. There is no security whatever, especially since libertarian free will teaches that your will is not determined by anything outside itself.
MTMattie
Active member
MTMattie
Active member
A. Free will, according to @Watchman
B. Predestination according to Calvin while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death
A. has the ability to walk away and the potential for true repentence and returning to God. God is the God Jesus told us about in Luke 15. He always welcomes the sinner back. No matter how badly His people have sinned, His desire is their return.
Think about David: David fell in his adultery with Bathsheba, but he turned around. Later he sinned again in taking a census against God's command, but again he turned around. The reason we remember David as a great king isn't the perfection of his life but the fact that he loved God so much that he gave up the world, even after the world ensnared him.
Think about the prodigal son: He was a son in his father's house (i.e. he was saved). He went off to live wildly on prostitutes and spending money freely. Eventually, he realized he was better off at home and returned. Notice that the father (God) welcomed him back before he even explained that he just wanted to be a servant in the house. He was welcomed back as a son. The three parables in Luke 15 are each about how valuable a soul is to God.
Peter is another example. He denied the Lord three times at a critical moment in history. Yet, he returned, preached the first gospel sermon, and was an elder in the church.
There was a man in the Corinthian church who was having sex with his father's wife. He kicked out of the church because of that sin, but we learn in the second letter to Corinth that he repented and came back to the Lord.
So, it is possible for someone to lose their way for a while and come back.
B. Regarding predestination under Calvin. There is no hope for those God chose to not include. They are lost.
And before you jump up and say you are not a Calvinist nor read or follow Calvin....Look at what is in the Westminster Confession of Faith
that was written about 100 years after Calvin died.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Predestination. https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/ccc/westminster/Of_Gods_Eternal_Decree.cfm
Chapter 3.III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).
You worry that with free will you might walk away and end up in hell? Though the bible shows repentance can still be viable.
Under predestination there are those that God actually chooses to end up in death, for if he does not predestine them to life, he lets them go. With no hope.
OR... are you of the "Double" pre-destination mind set that says....
Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church
We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ
opc.org
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church states, in its official Confession and Catechisms, that God has chosen some out of the human race to be saved through the finished work of Christ, thus inheriting eternal life. It also acknowledges that others of the same human race are not chosen to eternal life and therefore foreordained to everlasting punishment. This teaching is clearly stated, for example, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, section 3 which says this:
In other words, God sovereignly ordains the eternal destiny of every human being—the lost as well as the saved. This has sometimes been called "double predestination."
However, a careful study of the Westminster Standards will show that this is never to be understood to say—or even imply—that these are parallel to each other in some symmetrical way (as if every aspect in the one case has a corresponding aspect in the other). In the case of the elect there is a divine intervention called regeneration. This is a sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit whereby a sinner who is spiritually dead is made alive. It is this that enables a sinner to see and enter the Kingdom of God (as Jesus teaches in John 3). In other words, God works in those whom he has chosen to enable them to repent and believe. It follows that all the praise, credit and glory belongs to him alone. It does not belong to the elect sinner who repents and believes. In the case of those who are not elect, however, there is no internal work of God. It is not God who makes them evil. They already are evil. In their case the Word of God only hardens them in their sin. And it is to them alone—and not to God—that the blame therefore must belong for their final reprobation.
There is a God-decreed finality in both the predestination of the elect to eternal life and the foreordination of reprobate to condemnation. But there is no symmetry between them. It was for this very reason that the Westminster Assembly never used the Scriptural term predestination in speaking of the lost, but instead the term foreordination.
The part from "However...", to the end of your post, I agree with. The Bible states that repentance and faith are gifts from God.A. Free will, according to @Watchman
B. Predestination according to Calvin while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death
A. has the ability to walk away and the potential for true repentence and returning to God. God is the God Jesus told us about in Luke 15. He always welcomes the sinner back. No matter how badly His people have sinned, His desire is their return.
Think about David: David fell in his adultery with Bathsheba, but he turned around. Later he sinned again in taking a census against God's command, but again he turned around. The reason we remember David as a great king isn't the perfection of his life but the fact that he loved God so much that he gave up the world, even after the world ensnared him.
Think about the prodigal son: He was a son in his father's house (i.e. he was saved). He went off to live wildly on prostitutes and spending money freely. Eventually, he realized he was better off at home and returned. Notice that the father (God) welcomed him back before he even explained that he just wanted to be a servant in the house. He was welcomed back as a son. The three parables in Luke 15 are each about how valuable a soul is to God.
Peter is another example. He denied the Lord three times at a critical moment in history. Yet, he returned, preached the first gospel sermon, and was an elder in the church.
There was a man in the Corinthian church who was having sex with his father's wife. He kicked out of the church because of that sin, but we learn in the second letter to Corinth that he repented and came back to the Lord.
So, it is possible for someone to lose their way for a while and come back.
B. Regarding predestination under Calvin. There is no hope for those God chose to not include. They are lost.
And before you jump up and say you are not a Calvinist nor read or follow Calvin....Look at what is in the Westminster Confession of Faith
that was written about 100 years after Calvin died.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Predestination. https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/ccc/westminster/Of_Gods_Eternal_Decree.cfm
Chapter 3.III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).
You worry that with free will you might walk away and end up in hell? Though the bible shows repentance can still be viable.
Under predestination there are those that God actually chooses to end up in death, for if he does not predestine them to life, he lets them go. With no hope.
OR... are you of the "Double" pre-destination mind set that says....
Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church
We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church states, in its official Confession and Catechisms, that God has chosen some out of the human race to be saved through the finished work of Christ, thus inheriting eternal life. It also acknowledges that others of the same human race are not chosen to eternal life and therefore foreordained to everlasting punishment. This teaching is clearly stated, for example, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, section 3 which says this:
In other words, God sovereignly ordains the eternal destiny of every human being—the lost as well as the saved. This has sometimes been called "double predestination."
However, a careful study of the Westminster Standards will show that this is never to be understood to say—or even imply—that these are parallel to each other in some symmetrical way (as if every aspect in the one case has a corresponding aspect in the other). In the case of the elect there is a divine intervention called regeneration. This is a sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit whereby a sinner who is spiritually dead is made alive. It is this that enables a sinner to see and enter the Kingdom of God (as Jesus teaches in John 3). In other words, God works in those whom he has chosen to enable them to repent and believe. It follows that all the praise, credit and glory belongs to him alone. It does not belong to the elect sinner who repents and believes. In the case of those who are not elect, however, there is no internal work of God. It is not God who makes them evil. They already are evil. In their case the Word of God only hardens them in their sin. And it is to them alone—and not to God—that the blame therefore must belong for their final reprobation.
There is a God-decreed finality in both the predestination of the elect to eternal life and the foreordination of reprobate to condemnation. But there is no symmetry between them. It was for this very reason that the Westminster Assembly never used the Scriptural term predestination in speaking of the lost, but instead the term foreordination.
civic
Well-known member
It’s a huge mess of contradictions. By default if God actually ( He does not ) predetermines some will be saved and others will not it’s double predestination no matter how you slice it or want to call it by any other name. It’s an assault on the good character and nature of God.A. Free will, according to @Watchman
B. Predestination according to Calvin while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death
A. has the ability to walk away and the potential for true repentence and returning to God. God is the God Jesus told us about in Luke 15. He always welcomes the sinner back. No matter how badly His people have sinned, His desire is their return.
Think about David: David fell in his adultery with Bathsheba, but he turned around. Later he sinned again in taking a census against God's command, but again he turned around. The reason we remember David as a great king isn't the perfection of his life but the fact that he loved God so much that he gave up the world, even after the world ensnared him.
Think about the prodigal son: He was a son in his father's house (i.e. he was saved). He went off to live wildly on prostitutes and spending money freely. Eventually, he realized he was better off at home and returned. Notice that the father (God) welcomed him back before he even explained that he just wanted to be a servant in the house. He was welcomed back as a son. The three parables in Luke 15 are each about how valuable a soul is to God.
Peter is another example. He denied the Lord three times at a critical moment in history. Yet, he returned, preached the first gospel sermon, and was an elder in the church.
There was a man in the Corinthian church who was having sex with his father's wife. He kicked out of the church because of that sin, but we learn in the second letter to Corinth that he repented and came back to the Lord.
So, it is possible for someone to lose their way for a while and come back.
B. Regarding predestination under Calvin. There is no hope for those God chose to not include. They are lost.
And before you jump up and say you are not a Calvinist nor read or follow Calvin....Look at what is in the Westminster Confession of Faith
that was written about 100 years after Calvin died.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Predestination. https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/ccc/westminster/Of_Gods_Eternal_Decree.cfm
Chapter 3.III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).
You worry that with free will you might walk away and end up in hell? Though the bible shows repentance can still be viable.
Under predestination there are those that God actually chooses to end up in death, for if he does not predestine them to life, he lets them go. With no hope.
OR... are you of the "Double" pre-destination mind set that says....
Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church
We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church states, in its official Confession and Catechisms, that God has chosen some out of the human race to be saved through the finished work of Christ, thus inheriting eternal life. It also acknowledges that others of the same human race are not chosen to eternal life and therefore foreordained to everlasting punishment. This teaching is clearly stated, for example, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, section 3 which says this:
In other words, God sovereignly ordains the eternal destiny of every human being—the lost as well as the saved. This has sometimes been called "double predestination."
However, a careful study of the Westminster Standards will show that this is never to be understood to say—or even imply—that these are parallel to each other in some symmetrical way (as if every aspect in the one case has a corresponding aspect in the other). In the case of the elect there is a divine intervention called regeneration. This is a sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit whereby a sinner who is spiritually dead is made alive. It is this that enables a sinner to see and enter the Kingdom of God (as Jesus teaches in John 3). In other words, God works in those whom he has chosen to enable them to repent and believe. It follows that all the praise, credit and glory belongs to him alone. It does not belong to the elect sinner who repents and believes. In the case of those who are not elect, however, there is no internal work of God. It is not God who makes them evil. They already are evil. In their case the Word of God only hardens them in their sin. And it is to them alone—and not to God—that the blame therefore must belong for their final reprobation.
There is a God-decreed finality in both the predestination of the elect to eternal life and the foreordination of reprobate to condemnation. But there is no symmetry between them. It was for this very reason that the Westminster Assembly never used the Scriptural term predestination in speaking of the lost, but instead the term foreordination.
MTMattie
Active member
I as well as others here have given scriptural references, as well as specific links that have not come just from someone vivid imagination to show why we believe as we do and where our faith comes from
I do wish, that every time you make a reply... and that goes for most others on your side of the fence... would reply in kind... especially when you say things like The Bible states that repentance and faith are gifts from God
.https://biblicalpathway.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-repentence/
Key Takeaways
- Definition of Repentance: Repentance is a heartfelt turning away from sin and back to God, involving genuine sorrow and a commitment to change.
- Importance in Christianity: Repentance is essential for spiritual growth, restoration of the relationship with God, and is vital for salvation.
- Key Biblical References: Key scriptures like Ezekiel 18:30 and Luke 13:3 highlight the necessity and significance of true repentance in spiritual life.
- Process of Repentance: The steps to repentance include recognizing sin, feeling genuine regret, and committing to change, fostering personal and spiritual transformation.
- Role of Faith: Faith intertwines with repentance, enabling individuals to acknowledge their wrongdoings and seek God’s love and forgiveness.
- Transformative Journey: Engaging in repentance opens the door to a more profound relationship with God, leading to spiritual renewal and growth.
- Restoration of Relationship: Repentance restores your relationship with God. When you confess sins, you open the door to forgiveness (1 John 1:9).
- Spiritual Growth: Engaging in repentance fosters spiritual maturity. It encourages self-examination and helps you develop a more profound faith (2 Corinthians 7:10).
- Witness to Others: A repentant heart serves as a testimony. Displaying your transformation can lead others to explore faith (Acts 3:19).
- Use in Prayers: Including repentance in prayers strengthens your spiritual practice. Acknowledging faults leads to a more intimate connection with God.
- Essential for Salvation: According to Luke 13:3, repentance is vital for salvation. Jesus clarified the necessity of turning away from sin for eternal life
Romans 10:9 states that if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, salvation follows. This illustrates that genuine faith leads to the heartfelt desire to repent.
It also states if you believe in your heart (faith) salvation follows. Not befoere.
Next:
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING REPENTENCE COMES before being born again)
Next:
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING Belief/faith COMES before being born again)
Next:
Ezekiel 18:21-23
“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING REPENTENCE COMES before being born again)
NEXT:
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING Belief/faith COMES before being born again)
Luke 13:5
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING REPENTENCE COMES before being born again)
How much clearer does it have to be that if repentance and faith come after being born again and they all
are "GIFTS" from God..... It sure seems unlikely that you would be given the gift of being born again, and then
the gift of repentance is ignored by you so you perish.... Luke 13:15
Luke 3:3
And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING REPENTENCE COMES before being born again BECAUSE YOU ARE BNOT BAPTISED AFTER YYOU ARE BORN AGAIN)
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who seek him.(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING Belief/faith COMES before being born again... FOR FAITH COMES FIRST, THEN THE REWARD)
John 20:31
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.(IOW... BIBLICALLY SPEAKING again, Belief/faith COMES before being born again... IT DOES NOT SAY you have eternal life... it says may, as in the future)
Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) in direct disobedience to the command of Almighty Creator God (Genesis 2 16-17); therefore, God's revelation shows that Adam failed to see God in God's Righteous Glory.
God is compassionate, showing pity on His creatures; moreover, God's revelation shows that after God pronounced judgment on Adam (Genesis 3:17-19) God made garments of skin for Adam (Genesis 3:21) prior to evicting Adam from the garden (Genesis 3:24).
God spoke to disobediently evil Adam, yet God's revelation makes clear that Adam failed to see the Kingdom of God in Righteousness (Genesis 3:6) because Adam disobeyed God (John 3:3).
You have returned to your FAILURE ATONEMENT OF THE CHRIST (proof post #3,926) while you preach your earnably RESISTIBLE GRACE OF GOD.
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,190 - Your Heart Revised History In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,249 - Proverbs 29:1 Fails As A Proof Text For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,327 - your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) is not in Isaiah 30:15 - so Your Fallible Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable is proven anti-truth.
- post #5,376 - your Failure Atonement of Christ is akin to your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) as your adulteration of Isaiah 65:2 Shows.
- post #5,394 - You confuse God's patience with God's grace per Jeremiah 35:15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,396 - The uncircumcised in heart are the same as people not born of God, so God did not give God's Unearned Grace to those people recorded in Acts 7:51 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,416 - You add "grace" and "free-will" into Acts 13:46 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,347 - Your malinterpretation of Romans 10:21 Is Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,454 - The self-willed people were not recipients of God's Grace as per Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
clear, concise and straight to the point without all the gobblygook-cut n paste.
hope this helps !!!
The Bible states, very clearly, that repentance is a gift from God, not something generated by sinful man. (Repentance is a change of mind, resulting in a changed life.)
Acts 5:31 (W.E.B.) God exalted him with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life!
2 Cor. 7:8-10
8 For though I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it, though I did regret it. For I see that my letter made you sorry, though just for a while.
9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you were made sorry to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly way, that you might suffer loss by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world works death.
2 Tim. 2:24,25
24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
25 in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,
The Bible also states that faith is a gift from God and that not everyone has it.
Eph. 2:8-10
8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, that no one would boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
Salvation-by-grace-through-faith (the whole package) is a gift from God, not of works.
Philippians 1:29 (Webster) For to you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2 Pet. 1:1 (W.E.B.) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
We have obtained (i.e. it was given to us, not generated by us) a precious faith in Jesus Christ like the apostles.
2 Thess. 3:2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for not all have faith.
Being born again, on its own, does not save you. It gives you a new heart/spirit (Ez. 36:26,27) that is willing to do God's will - repent and believe in Jesus Christ- and it is only after the repentance, faith and forgiveness that you can be said to be saved.
You are completely and utterly wrong about repentance and faith coming before being born again; and this is such a serious error that it borders on heresy. The Bible is very clear about the condition of sinful, unregenerate man; and that there is nothing in such a person that will come to the Lord in faith; besides which, salvation is of the Lord, not man's will/choice (Rom. 9:16, etc.).
Rom. 3:9-19 (W.E.B.)
9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.” “The poison of vipers is under their lips;”
14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood.
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways.
17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.
John 3:19,20
19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.
Contrast verses 19,20 with the condition of one who has been saved.
John 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
Rom. 8:5-9
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
The Bible is crystal clear about the condition of the unregenerate man. He his hostile towards God; he hates the light and will not come to it; he cannot please God (and faith in Jesus Christ pleases God); he has no fear of God, etc., etc.. There is simply no escaping this.
MTMattie
Active member
But he does not give it to everyone.... obviously..... Yet if some do so on their own they can.
Luke 13:1 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.
Luke 13:2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?
Luke 12:3 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
.....................That was no offer of a gift, that was a warning...
Luke 13:4 “Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
He is telling them to repent.... not gifting
MTMattie
Active member
I did not write the bible.
But what I posted came from the pages thereof
As to born again...... YOU CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BEING BORN AGAIN.
BUT YOU ARE LEARNING: @Watchman SAID Being born again, on its own, does not save you. It gives you a new heart/spirit (Ez. 36:26,27) that is willing to do God's will - repent and believe in Jesus Christ- and it is only after the repentance, faith and forgiveness that you can be said to be saved.
Repentence and faith comes first. being born again is not a gift either.
I discerned you believe in the sovereignty of God before I responded to you and @DavidTree. Praise be to God!
Isaiah 45:7 has been discussed in this thread, previously, at the same time as this Word of God "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18).
The free-willians insisted that they are inherently good to be able to choose the Good God.
Post #4,976 shows @TomL, the guy who made the original post to this thread, declaring his inherent goodness that, in Truth (John 14:6), he cannot have apart from Christ.
You can see @civic failing to defend his inherent goodness of "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation" in post #5,472. @civic believes his error about Adam which he then leverages to believe he can see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in the true splendor of the Living God without civic being born of God, and civic believes his error despite being shown the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
We Christians believe in the Chris, and we believe His sayings which are Life.
These blessedly beautiful sayings include the Christ's "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).
Praise be to Lord Jesus for who He is and for His deliverance of us His sheep!
A saved by Grace yet unworthy slave of Lord Jesus,
Kermos
civic
Well-known member
First, none of Psalm 78 mentions "grace", so your heart adds "grace".
Second, you deleted the intervening passage of Psalm 78 which you use to distort the Good Message.
Third, Psalm 78 mentions "compassion" which means "pity" inside of "But He, being compassionate, forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them; and often He restrained His anger and did not arouse all His wrath" (Psalm 78:38).
Fourth, "Because they did not believe in God and did not trust in His salvation" (Psalm 78:22) reveals that they did not receive the gracious work of God revealed in “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) earnable resistible grace interpretation adulterates the Word of God as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:
| The Book of civic | The Book of Psalms | |
| Yet they still resisted His Grace even though they could have chose His Grace, To rebel against the Most High in the desert. How often they resisted His Grace instead of compassion in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert! (civic 78:17;40) | Yet they still continued to sin against Him, To rebel against the Most High in the desert. (Psalm 78:17) How often they rebelled against Him in the wilderness And grieved Him in the desert! (Psalm 78:40) |
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,190 - Your Heart Revised History In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,249 - Proverbs 29:1 Fails As A Proof Text For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,327 - your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) is not in Isaiah 30:15 - so Your Fallible Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable is proven anti-truth.
- post #5,376 - your Failure Atonement of Christ is akin to your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) as your adulteration of Isaiah 65:2 Shows.
- post #5,394 - You confuse God's patience with God's grace per Jeremiah 35:15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,396 - The uncircumcised in heart are the same as people not born of God, so God did not give God's Unearned Grace to those people recorded in Acts 7:51 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,416 - You add "grace" and "free-will" into Acts 13:46 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,347 - Your malinterpretation of Romans 10:21 Is Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,454 - The self-willed people were not recipients of God's Grace as per Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,472 - Evil Adam saw not the Good God in God's fullness (see John 3:3) As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
