civic
Well-known member
Empty rhetoric and a biased view of man from Calvin via Augustine.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
MTMattie
Active member
Boy I love my dad..... NOW that I have my pony.
It's a biblical view of man; and nothing to do with Calvin or Augustine.
The unregenerate man hates the light and will not come to it.
John 3:19,20 (W.E.B.)
19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.
Now contrast this with someone who has been born of God.
John 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.”
The unregenerate man's nature is thoroughly evil and against God.
Rom. 3:9-19
9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written, “There is no one righteous; no, not one.
11 There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit.” “The poison of vipers is under their lips;”
14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood.
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways.
17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.
The unregenerate man (i.e. one who is "in the flesh") is hostile towards God and cannot please him. This is contrasted with the saved people, in other words, those who are "in the Spirit" and in whom the Spirit of God dwells.
Rom. 8:5-9
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.
---nothing to do with Calvin or Augustine!
You think that getting a pony is like being given a new, soft heart/spirit?! Shakes head in disgust and astonishment...
MTMattie
Active member
Sunday , two weeks ago, a woman in church was explaining all the symbols that are on the church Christmas tree. And she held up a cross.
All white.
Before starting she asked for children to come forward to hear about the tree.
When she held up the cross she asked who was able to tell her what the cross stood for and a young boy... about 8 years of age.... raised his hand and explained that that was where Jesus dies. And he did for our sins. And so we who know this will go to heaven.
I thought for an 8 year old that was pretty spot on. Because remembering back, it was around that age I knew that in the center of my being.
I had believed that before then because of parent teaching and church teaching but it was about that age I would actually say I "knew" it.
I had been given a new soft heart and spirit.... because of the nurturing of others.
I wrote that as I did because so many here carry the attitude that once you are saved, then you have faith and belief... as if it was not worth their time before the assurance of being born again to develop a relationship with the Trinity.
Be disgusted all you want... just as I am with the concept that if you need to be born again before loving God.... there is something wrong.
So between John 1:12-13 and your weak-kneed statement that contradicts John 1:12-13, I choose John 1:12-13 which obliterated your heretical Calvinist beliefs in a great ball of fire.
You might have been given a new, soft heart/spirit at about that age, but, if so, it was because of God's free grace, not because of the works of men.
Before one is born again, the relationship he has with God is one of unbelief, hostility and rebellion. Any movement god-wards is entirely attributable to the grace of God and not the sinful, rebellious will of unregenerate man.
Of course one needs to be born again, in order to love God! The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, because they are foolishness to him. He hates the light and will not come to it; and he is hostile towards God, unable to please him.
So between John 1:12-13 and your weak-kneed statement that contradicts John 1:12-13, I choose John 1:12-13 which obliterated your heretical synergistic beliefs in a great ball of fire.So between John 1:12-13 and your weak-kneed statement that contradicts John 1:12-13, I choose John 1:12-13 which obliterated your heretical Calvinist beliefs in a great ball of fire.
See how that works?
Your total inability to offer any counterargument to what I wrote below about John 1:12-13 demonstrates for all to see that your calvinist heresy has crashed and burned before your very eyes.
Stop embarrassing yourself.You omitted to mention the "received" portion of verse 12 which causes your claims to crash and burn.
(John 1:12) But as many as received (ἔλαβον) Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe (πιστεύουσιν) on His name,
"Received" in Greek is ἔλαβον which is aorist (past tense) and active. So we actively received Him (past tense) and were born of God (past tense). How did we receive him? Through belief which we continue to manifest in the present as mentioned in verse 12.
If Calvinists have any other way to actively receive Him, other than to believe in Him then, by all means, do tell us.
Now we know why you omitted to mention the "received" portion of verse 12....
Another one for "ignore"...Your total inability to offer any counterargument to what I wrote below about John 1:12-13 demonstrates for all to see that your calvinist heresy has crashed and burned before your very eyes.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
I see that your way of dealing with reality is to stick your head in the ground. Carry on with your heresies, myths, and fables.
MTMattie
Active member
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God because he is having far too much fun in his mortal skin.
MTMattie
Active member
A question for all who believe that one gets born again before loving god.
Aside from the fact that Jesus never explained THAT to Nicodemus like that what in the world was the reason for all those missionaries from back in the day who set out to teach the "natives". If //God pre-destined, what were those missionaries for.... cause it it was not to help under privileged countries like missionaries do today....
Consider the influence of Σατανᾶς, . Given the power to rule over earth. And just like the Mafia always gives the people what they want in the form of lodging and entertainment to keep them coming back, so to is the deception UNTIL one learns . And I do not believe that is from what God pre-destined for people.
I believe He had his plan. He had the way it was to be presented. The offer was on the table, but up to us to make our choice.
Its funny but Calvin on his beliefs and teaching " was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals ".
I think he got it backward. I think Israel was the one nation pre-destined by God the Father and that too many individuals were going wayward
so Jesus was.... in His own words... Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
@Watchman , I KNOW YOU ARE OPPOSITE THIS....IDC. You are born again, I am born again. You love God , I love God. How we got here does not matter.
Only that we are.
Aside from the fact that Jesus never explained THAT to Nicodemus like that what in the world was the reason for all those missionaries from back in the day who set out to teach the "natives". If //God pre-destined, what were those missionaries for.... cause it it was not to help under privileged countries like missionaries do today....
Consider the influence of Σατανᾶς, . Given the power to rule over earth. And just like the Mafia always gives the people what they want in the form of lodging and entertainment to keep them coming back, so to is the deception UNTIL one learns . And I do not believe that is from what God pre-destined for people.
I believe He had his plan. He had the way it was to be presented. The offer was on the table, but up to us to make our choice.
Its funny but Calvin on his beliefs and teaching " was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals ".
I think he got it backward. I think Israel was the one nation pre-destined by God the Father and that too many individuals were going wayward
so Jesus was.... in His own words... Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
@Watchman , I KNOW YOU ARE OPPOSITE THIS....IDC. You are born again, I am born again. You love God , I love God. How we got here does not matter.
Only that we are.
Those people were self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10); in other words, those people did not have a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29). Those people served their own glory instead of God's Glory because they were not in Christ (John 15:5).
Your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) earnable resistible grace interpretation adulterates the Word of God as evidenced through your own writings recorded in your post to which God causes me to respond now:
| The Book of the Free-willian civic | The Book of the Apostle Matthew | |
| Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks by her grace under her wings, and you resisted My Grace even though in your freewill you were capable of choosing to earn My Grace by allowing My Unearned Love into yourselves. (civic 23:37) | Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (Matthew 23:37) |
It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
God used the people of Jerusalem to show Jesus to the world.
The people of Jerusalem were a testament to God's control of people for we have an Apostolic prayer about this very matter and what happened in Jerusalem shortly after Jesus said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem".
"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." (Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord).
And not long after the crucifixion of Jesus, we find the mighty Lord Jesus securing the Grace of God into persons chosen by God to be children of God in Jerusalem, yes Jerusalem (see the word "received" in Acts 2:41).
So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls
(Acts 2:41).
God adding to the children of God in Jerusalem means that the Grace of God succeeds when the Unearned Love of God is delivered unto man by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).
This is a blessed loving work of Jesus that Lord Jesus did there and there.
You quoted Matthew 23:37 twice.
According to your preaching, man controls the Love of God, yet Apostolic testimony is "the Love of Christ controls us" Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14) - a blessed Apostolic testimony in the Holy Spirit.
Your testimony is man earns the unearned Love of God because man chooses the Love of God.
This post is an integral continuation with:
- post #5,018 - Evaluated Your Conclusion That God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,019 - Your Adulteration of Matthew 22:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,024 - Your Destruction of Jerusalem, Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,026 - Hebrews 6:4-8 Exposes The Impossibility Of A Christian To Expose The Christ To Public Shame Despite Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,031 - You Declare The Almighty God Is Miserably Weak Per Your Heart's Rendition Of Luke 19:41 For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,036 - You fallen away from God's Grace is not you fallen out of God's Grace in Galatians 5:4-7, so your self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is resistible and earnable fails to be your proof.
- post #5,045 - You believe Lord Jesus, who is Love, fails by your quoting of Hebrews 12:14-15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,078 - You believe Almighty God, who is Love, fails by your quoting of 2 Corinthians 6:1 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,105 - Your perverted a warning into a binding judgment in Hebrews 10:29 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,132 - Your heart adulterates Hebrews 12:25's word "warns" into the word "condemns" As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,168 - You Added Free-will into Genesis 6:3 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,190 - Your Heart Revised History In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,249 - Proverbs 29:1 Fails As A Proof Text For Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,327 - your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) is not in Isaiah 30:15 - so Your Fallible Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable is proven anti-truth.
- post #5,376 - your Failure Atonement of Christ is akin to your Fallible Grace of God (Resistible Grace) as your adulteration of Isaiah 65:2 Shows.
- post #5,394 - You confuse God's patience with God's grace per Jeremiah 35:15 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,396 - The uncircumcised in heart are the same as people not born of God, so God did not give God's Unearned Grace to those people recorded in Acts 7:51 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,416 - You add "grace" and "free-will" into Acts 13:46 As Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
- post #5,347 - Your malinterpretation of Romans 10:21 Is Your Self-willed "proof" that God's Grace Is Resistible and Earnable.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN KING JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
unwilling means they had a choice and a will to choose to come or not. your FATALISM gets in the way of the TRUTH and you substitute your traditions of men over Gods revealed truth. They exchanged the truth for a lie and worshiped the creation over the creator. Your fatalism is your god, a false gospel and christ.
hope this helps !!!
The Bible says that the natural (i.e. unregenerate) man hates the light and will not come to it; and that he is hostile towards God, unable to please him. This is why we MUST be born again, in order to repent, have faith in and love God; however, this is a logical order and I do believe that these things happen at the same time (or so close to being at the same time that we cannot perceive a gap).
I don't see why this is a question for you. The missionaries were (and should be now) to preach the gospel. This is the main means that God has chosen to save his people.
In the Bible, it is always people who are predestined; and it is always positive.
The Bible never says that faith is generated by sinful man's choice. It does say that faith is a gift from God and that not all men have it.
I think you have misunderstood what Calvin meant (not that I really care what Calvin meant, since my beliefs are from the Bible, not Calvin).
Doctrine also matters (a lot); and it has strong effects in people's lives. I remember vividly a brother in Christ who had been under the yoke of freewill teaching. The Lord opened his eyes to the truth that God's sheep will never perish; and he said that he felt as if he had been born again, again.
I remember from before I was born again. I was not having much fun. I was trying to battle against some of the flaws (sins) I saw in myself, and failing miserably.
I won't give my testimony just now; but, suffice to say that enjoying sin is not the only major hindrance to coming to Christ.
civic
Well-known member
I was under the bondage of fatalism ie Calvinism for over 40 years until the Son set me free. The Lord opened my eyes to see and understand His love like never before.
Being unwilling does not mean that a person could have made himself willing. That is an obvious non-sequitur.
Civic, why are you describing God's determinate counsel as "FATALISM"? Do you not understand that fatalism is impersonal and not based upon the sovereignty of God?
What you call "Calvinism" (a misnomer) is not fatalism, as I've pointed out a few times. We need to call things what they are, not use inaccurate and pejorative descriptions, just because they happen to suit our purpose.
