An Article on free will

[Kermos]

So God causes the righteous but the rest are by their own cause without God's cause?

We Christians are saved from the wrath of God in and by and through Christ, and we proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to the self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You desire to discuss who causes people to move away from God, yet the Holy Scripture detailing your desired discussion is in the post to which you replied. God wants me to correspond now about who causes people to move toward God.

The gracious Benefactor God of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[DavidTree]

@Kermos

Is it Augustine, Luther or Calvin's beliefs that you follow? For it must be one, as not all three agree on predestination with each other.

Augustine held a predestined view quite different then the others.

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, (Synopsis)​

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice and deeds.

Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called “double predestination” was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1).

Luther's View on Predestination:

First, he recognized that because “The Lord knoweth them that are His,” there are different “vessels,” as Paul teaches in Romans 9. Some people are predestined in election as “vessels” for honor and others are passed over in election and become “vessels” for dishonor.

Second, Luther recognized that the Scriptures teach that the sovereign God has predestined who would be what kind of vessel. Man has no “free-will” in this sense. All depends on the sovereignty of God, who, as the potter, “has power” to predestine all that comes to pass.[4]

Third, all that comes to pass depends on the sovereign, predestinating purposes of the Triune God according to His own will. While God does not will evil, He does permit it. The promise of Romans 8:28 is that, because God controls everything, Christians can rest assured that, in all situations, God is accomplishing our greatest good and His greatest glory. This, Luther taught, is the vital and glorious hinge on which all else turns.

Calvins Views on Predestination: PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO NUMBER 10.

Most all know his views as they have withstood the test of time, but a brief commentary should surface as a reminder.

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death .” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel . He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals .

But among the varied comments on the beliefs of Calvin , one interesting popped up. (I could list many links of his ideas but one below really had me take a double take.... So if it is the Calvin end of thing... that you have followed or learned from... don't.

John Calvin's 15 Surprisingly Catholic Views

Among other doctrines, Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

www.ncregister.com

1. Calvin thought that the Church had the power of excommunication: “The Church binds him whom she excommunicates, not by plunging him into eternal ruin and despair, but condemning his life and manners, and admonishing him, that, unless he repent, he is condemned.” (Institutes, IV, 11:2)

2. Calvin believed that there was no salvation outside the Church: “Beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, . . .” (IV, 1:4)

3. Calvin thought weekly Holy Communion was the minimum frequency: “The sacrament might be celebrated in the most becoming manner, if it were dispensed to the Church very frequently, at least once a-week.” (IV, 17:43)


4. Calvin believed in the primacy of St. Peter, as leader of the apostles: “There is no senate without a consul, no bench of judges without a president or chancellor, no college without a provost, no company without a master. Thus there would be no absurdity were we to confess that the apostles had conferred such a primacy on Peter.” (IV, 6:8)

5. Calvin accepted the primacy of the Roman Church in early Christian history: “I deny not that the early Christians uniformly give high honour to the Roman Church, and speak of it with reverence. . . . [it] adhered more firmly to the doctrine once delivered, . . .” (IV, 6:16)

6. Calvin believed in the indefectibility of the Church: “I always hold that the truth does not perish in the Church . . .” (IV, 9:13)

7. Calvin utterly detested denominations and sectarianism: “Hence the Church is called Catholic or Universal (August. Ep. 48), for two or three cannot be invented without dividing Christ; and this is impossible. All the elect of God are so joined together in Christ, that as they depend on one head, . . .” (IV, 1:2)


8. Calvin thought that sacraments produce real, beneficial effects: “They, by sealing it to us, sustain, nourish, confirm, and increase our faith.” (IV, 14:7) / “That sacred communion of flesh and blood by which Christ transfuses his life into us, just as if it penetrated our bones and marrow, . . .” (IV, 17:10)

9. Calvin taught that there was such a thing as a holy, sacred place: “God . . . descend to us, that he may be near to us, and yet neither change his place nor affect us by earthly means, but rather, . . . raise us aloft to his own heavenly glory, . . .” (IV, 1:5)

10. Calvin believed that human beings could be distributors or mediators of salvation: “In several passages he [St. Paul] . . . attributes to himself the province of bestowing salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).” (IV, 1:6)

11. Calvin seemingly accepted the notion of baptismal regeneration: “. . . forgiveness, which at our first regeneration we receive by baptism alone . . . we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ.” (IV, 15:4)
(NOTE: He also believed infant baptism is proper)... due to space not going into that here wither)

12. Calvin approved of bodily mortification as spiritually beneficial: “In like manner, therefore, as persons accused were anciently wont, . . . to humble themselves suppliantly with . . . coarse garments, . . . weeping and fasting, and the like, undoubtedly belong, in an equal degree, to our age, whenever the condition of our affairs so requires.” (IV, 12:17)

13. Calvin believed that there was a profound causal connection between Holy Eucharist and salvation: “Nay, the very flesh in which he resides he makes vivifying to us, that by partaking of it we may feed for immortality. . . . by this food believers are reared to eternal life.” (IV, 17:8) / “. . . the food of eternal life.” (IV, 17:19) / “. . . secures the immortality of our flesh, . . .” (IV, 17:32)

14. Calvin held that contraception was gravely sinful: “It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime.” (Commentary on Genesis [38:10], translated by John King)

15. Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary: “[On Matthew 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.” (Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, Geneva, 1562, Vol. I, p. 107; from Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949)

i never read any Calvinism and have no desire to!

God's Word and the Holy Spirit is All sufficient AND the ministry of His Body effectually working together in His Love & Truth & Spirit

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

Believing and not believing is always a human action. Furthermore, it is not a “work”, nor can it be for “faith/believing” is the direct opposite of “works” in Eph 2:8-9!

If its an action its a work, and as you stated believing is a action. Believing isnt the opposite of a work, its a work, but its either a work of the flesh or of the Spirit. If its of the Spirit its of grace, but if its of the flesh its a human work.

But again the word believe in the greek is a verb, a action verb pisteuo which denotes a work, cant get around it

 

[civic]

@Kermos

Is it Augustine, Luther or Calvin's beliefs that you follow? For it must be one, as not all three agree on predestination with each other.

Augustine held a predestined view quite different then the others.

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, (Synopsis)​

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice and deeds.

Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called “double predestination” was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1).

Luther's View on Predestination:

First, he recognized that because “The Lord knoweth them that are His,” there are different “vessels,” as Paul teaches in Romans 9. Some people are predestined in election as “vessels” for honor and others are passed over in election and become “vessels” for dishonor.

Second, Luther recognized that the Scriptures teach that the sovereign God has predestined who would be what kind of vessel. Man has no “free-will” in this sense. All depends on the sovereignty of God, who, as the potter, “has power” to predestine all that comes to pass.[4]

Third, all that comes to pass depends on the sovereign, predestinating purposes of the Triune God according to His own will. While God does not will evil, He does permit it. The promise of Romans 8:28 is that, because God controls everything, Christians can rest assured that, in all situations, God is accomplishing our greatest good and His greatest glory. This, Luther taught, is the vital and glorious hinge on which all else turns.

Calvins Views on Predestination: PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO NUMBER 10.

Most all know his views as they have withstood the test of time, but a brief commentary should surface as a reminder.

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death .” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel . He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals .

But among the varied comments on the beliefs of Calvin , one interesting popped up. (I could list many links of his ideas but one below really had me take a double take.... So if it is the Calvin end of thing... that you have followed or learned from... don't.

John Calvin's 15 Surprisingly Catholic Views

Among other doctrines, Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

www.ncregister.com

1. Calvin thought that the Church had the power of excommunication: “The Church binds him whom she excommunicates, not by plunging him into eternal ruin and despair, but condemning his life and manners, and admonishing him, that, unless he repent, he is condemned.” (Institutes, IV, 11:2)

2. Calvin believed that there was no salvation outside the Church: “Beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, . . .” (IV, 1:4)

3. Calvin thought weekly Holy Communion was the minimum frequency: “The sacrament might be celebrated in the most becoming manner, if it were dispensed to the Church very frequently, at least once a-week.” (IV, 17:43)


4. Calvin believed in the primacy of St. Peter, as leader of the apostles: “There is no senate without a consul, no bench of judges without a president or chancellor, no college without a provost, no company without a master. Thus there would be no absurdity were we to confess that the apostles had conferred such a primacy on Peter.” (IV, 6:8)

5. Calvin accepted the primacy of the Roman Church in early Christian history: “I deny not that the early Christians uniformly give high honour to the Roman Church, and speak of it with reverence. . . . [it] adhered more firmly to the doctrine once delivered, . . .” (IV, 6:16)

6. Calvin believed in the indefectibility of the Church: “I always hold that the truth does not perish in the Church . . .” (IV, 9:13)

7. Calvin utterly detested denominations and sectarianism: “Hence the Church is called Catholic or Universal (August. Ep. 48), for two or three cannot be invented without dividing Christ; and this is impossible. All the elect of God are so joined together in Christ, that as they depend on one head, . . .” (IV, 1:2)


8. Calvin thought that sacraments produce real, beneficial effects: “They, by sealing it to us, sustain, nourish, confirm, and increase our faith.” (IV, 14:7) / “That sacred communion of flesh and blood by which Christ transfuses his life into us, just as if it penetrated our bones and marrow, . . .” (IV, 17:10)

9. Calvin taught that there was such a thing as a holy, sacred place: “God . . . descend to us, that he may be near to us, and yet neither change his place nor affect us by earthly means, but rather, . . . raise us aloft to his own heavenly glory, . . .” (IV, 1:5)

10. Calvin believed that human beings could be distributors or mediators of salvation: “In several passages he [St. Paul] . . . attributes to himself the province of bestowing salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).” (IV, 1:6)

11. Calvin seemingly accepted the notion of baptismal regeneration: “. . . forgiveness, which at our first regeneration we receive by baptism alone . . . we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ.” (IV, 15:4)
(NOTE: He also believed infant baptism is proper)... due to space not going into that here wither)

12. Calvin approved of bodily mortification as spiritually beneficial: “In like manner, therefore, as persons accused were anciently wont, . . . to humble themselves suppliantly with . . . coarse garments, . . . weeping and fasting, and the like, undoubtedly belong, in an equal degree, to our age, whenever the condition of our affairs so requires.” (IV, 12:17)

13. Calvin believed that there was a profound causal connection between Holy Eucharist and salvation: “Nay, the very flesh in which he resides he makes vivifying to us, that by partaking of it we may feed for immortality. . . . by this food believers are reared to eternal life.” (IV, 17:8) / “. . . the food of eternal life.” (IV, 17:19) / “. . . secures the immortality of our flesh, . . .” (IV, 17:32)

14. Calvin held that contraception was gravely sinful: “It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime.” (Commentary on Genesis [38:10], translated by John King)

15. Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary: “[On Matthew 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.” (Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, Geneva, 1562, Vol. I, p. 107; from Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949)

yes he is a fatalist/determinist like calvin/augustine.

 

[Kampioen]

@TibiasDad


If its an action its a work, and as you stated believing is a action. Believing isnt the opposite of a work, its a work, but its either a work of the flesh or of the Spirit. If its of the Spirit its of grace, but if its of the flesh its a human work.

But again the word believe in the greek is a verb, a action verb pisteuo which denotes a work, cant get around it

Since by your view, everything is determined then all of it is God's work, elect or not. If it's man's work, then you are saying it's not God's work, then you are saying God didn't determine it. Which is it?

 

[brightfame52]

Since by your view, everything is determined then all of it is God's work, elect or not. If it's man's work, then you are saying it's not God's work, then you are saying God didn't determine it. Which is it?

You sound confused. Im not trying to untwist all your confusion

 

[civic]

We Christians are saved from the wrath of God in and by and through Christ, and we proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to the self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You desire to discuss who causes people to move away from God, yet the Holy Scripture detailing your desired discussion is in the post to which you replied. God wants me to correspond now about who causes people to move toward God.

The gracious Benefactor God of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the Truth (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us believers (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

Fatalism, determinism, calvinism, augustinianism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

 

[MTMattie]

@TibiasDad


If its an action its a work, and as you stated believing is a action. Believing isnt the opposite of a work, its a work, but its either a work of the flesh or of the Spirit. If its of the Spirit its of grace, but if its of the flesh its a human work.

But again the word believe in the greek is a verb, a action verb pisteuo which denotes a work, cant get around it

So you wont believe because it is a work??????????????????????????????????????????????????/

You know what else then is a work? Something we are told over and over again to do. Something that was a command of Jesus.... You know... that thing about your neighbors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

VERB, so makes it a work, RIGHT?

Love (verb)-agapao (Greek Word Study)​

Updated: Sun, 08/21/2016 - 21:52 By admin
To love (25) (agapao - see related study of noun agape) means to love unconditionally and sacrificially as God Himself loves sinful men (John 3:16), the way He loves the Son (John 3:35, 15:9, 17:23, 24).
Note that agapao is a verb and by its verbal nature calls for action. This quality of love is not an emotion but is an action initiated by a volitional choice.
MacArthur writes that agapao "expresses the purest, noblest form of love, which is volitionally driven, not motivated by superficial appearance, emotional attraction, or sentimental relationship. (MacArthur, John: 1 & 2 Thessalonians. Moody Press) In his commentary on 1 Peter MacArthur says it this way "agapaō expresses the ideal kind of love, that which is exercised by the will rather than emotion, not determined by the beauty or desirability of the object, but by the noble intention of the one who loves."

so make sure you do not love your neighbor because someone just might take you for a Catholic will all that work. SMH

 

[MTMattie]

@Kermos

Is it Augustine, Luther or Calvin's beliefs that you follow? For it must be one, as not all three agree on predestination with each other.

Augustine held a predestined view quite different then the others.

Augustine’s View of Predestination: St. Augustine, (Synopsis)​

Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their own choice and deeds.

Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called “double predestination” was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1).

Luther's View on Predestination:

First, he recognized that because “The Lord knoweth them that are His,” there are different “vessels,” as Paul teaches in Romans 9. Some people are predestined in election as “vessels” for honor and others are passed over in election and become “vessels” for dishonor.

Second, Luther recognized that the Scriptures teach that the sovereign God has predestined who would be what kind of vessel. Man has no “free-will” in this sense. All depends on the sovereignty of God, who, as the potter, “has power” to predestine all that comes to pass.[4]

Third, all that comes to pass depends on the sovereign, predestinating purposes of the Triune God according to His own will. While God does not will evil, He does permit it. The promise of Romans 8:28 is that, because God controls everything, Christians can rest assured that, in all situations, God is accomplishing our greatest good and His greatest glory. This, Luther taught, is the vital and glorious hinge on which all else turns.

Calvins Views on Predestination: PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO NUMBER 10.

Most all know his views as they have withstood the test of time, but a brief commentary should surface as a reminder.

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death .” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel . He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals .

But among the varied comments on the beliefs of Calvin , one interesting popped up. (I could list many links of his ideas but one below really had me take a double take.... So if it is the Calvin end of thing... that you have followed or learned from... don't.

John Calvin's 15 Surprisingly Catholic Views

Among other doctrines, Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary.

www.ncregister.com

1. Calvin thought that the Church had the power of excommunication: “The Church binds him whom she excommunicates, not by plunging him into eternal ruin and despair, but condemning his life and manners, and admonishing him, that, unless he repent, he is condemned.” (Institutes, IV, 11:2)

2. Calvin believed that there was no salvation outside the Church: “Beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for, . . .” (IV, 1:4)

3. Calvin thought weekly Holy Communion was the minimum frequency: “The sacrament might be celebrated in the most becoming manner, if it were dispensed to the Church very frequently, at least once a-week.” (IV, 17:43)


4. Calvin believed in the primacy of St. Peter, as leader of the apostles: “There is no senate without a consul, no bench of judges without a president or chancellor, no college without a provost, no company without a master. Thus there would be no absurdity were we to confess that the apostles had conferred such a primacy on Peter.” (IV, 6:8)

5. Calvin accepted the primacy of the Roman Church in early Christian history: “I deny not that the early Christians uniformly give high honour to the Roman Church, and speak of it with reverence. . . . [it] adhered more firmly to the doctrine once delivered, . . .” (IV, 6:16)

6. Calvin believed in the indefectibility of the Church: “I always hold that the truth does not perish in the Church . . .” (IV, 9:13)

7. Calvin utterly detested denominations and sectarianism: “Hence the Church is called Catholic or Universal (August. Ep. 48), for two or three cannot be invented without dividing Christ; and this is impossible. All the elect of God are so joined together in Christ, that as they depend on one head, . . .” (IV, 1:2)


8. Calvin thought that sacraments produce real, beneficial effects: “They, by sealing it to us, sustain, nourish, confirm, and increase our faith.” (IV, 14:7) / “That sacred communion of flesh and blood by which Christ transfuses his life into us, just as if it penetrated our bones and marrow, . . .” (IV, 17:10)

9. Calvin taught that there was such a thing as a holy, sacred place: “God . . . descend to us, that he may be near to us, and yet neither change his place nor affect us by earthly means, but rather, . . . raise us aloft to his own heavenly glory, . . .” (IV, 1:5)

10. Calvin believed that human beings could be distributors or mediators of salvation: “In several passages he [St. Paul] . . . attributes to himself the province of bestowing salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).” (IV, 1:6)

11. Calvin seemingly accepted the notion of baptismal regeneration: “. . . forgiveness, which at our first regeneration we receive by baptism alone . . . we are washed from our sins by the blood of Christ.” (IV, 15:4)
(NOTE: He also believed infant baptism is proper)... due to space not going into that here wither)

12. Calvin approved of bodily mortification as spiritually beneficial: “In like manner, therefore, as persons accused were anciently wont, . . . to humble themselves suppliantly with . . . coarse garments, . . . weeping and fasting, and the like, undoubtedly belong, in an equal degree, to our age, whenever the condition of our affairs so requires.” (IV, 12:17)

13. Calvin believed that there was a profound causal connection between Holy Eucharist and salvation: “Nay, the very flesh in which he resides he makes vivifying to us, that by partaking of it we may feed for immortality. . . . by this food believers are reared to eternal life.” (IV, 17:8) / “. . . the food of eternal life.” (IV, 17:19) / “. . . secures the immortality of our flesh, . . .” (IV, 17:32)

14. Calvin held that contraception was gravely sinful: “It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime.” (Commentary on Genesis [38:10], translated by John King)

15. Calvin accepted the Catholic and scriptural belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary: “[On Matthew 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation.” (Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, Geneva, 1562, Vol. I, p. 107; from Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949)

Question on this post of mine.

Often when I copy and paste there will be parts that have a strike through that I did not do. WHY?

 

[brightfame52]

@MTMattie

So you wont believe because it is a work??????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Huh ? You sound like you in another world, reread

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



Huh ? You sound like you in another world, reread

You are working overtime to prove that believe is a work......

You say the verb believe is a work in Greek.

I proved also love is a verb in Greek.

If one is, the other is.

We are told to do both. But not in the style of James....

You cannot understand what you read? That explains a lot

 

[brightfame52]

@MTMattie

You are working overtime to prove that believe is a work.....

It is a work. The word in the greek is a verb, a action verb and that makes it a work. Its also a command which makes it a law work 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[Kermos]

Fatalism, determinism, calvinism, augustinianism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

Sad civic refers to the Word of God - even the Love of God - as civic's "Fatalism". Behold, your lack of repentance, civic.

you do not understand what it means when the bible declares God is love.

determinism, fatalism and calvins predestination is the opposite of love- monergism is not love, synergism is loving. Forced love, forcing ones will, determining ones fate is hate, not love.

next fallacy

By Lord Jesus Christ's Grace, for His glory, I know Love, a.k.a. God, saved me from the wrath of God when I didn't know Grace, and this everlasting Life in Christ delivered to me is loving (John 3:3-21). Praise Lord Jesus for His successful rescue mission!

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8), and God is Love (1 John 4:16), and grace means unearned love, yet you believe in your earnable RESISTIBLE GRACE OF GOD, so you believe that your God's earnable unearnable love fails due to man's overpowering resistance - you covey that you believe "Love fails" (1 civic 13:8) (proof post #5,496).

You call Lord Jesus Christ's successful rescue mission your wicked "hate".

I explained previously that I am a Christian because I believe in Christ Jesus, so you call Savior and God and Lord Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal".

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO IS LOVE!!!

 

[civic]

Sad civic refers to the Word of God - even the Love of God - as civic's "Fatalism". Behold, your lack of repentance, civic.



By Lord Jesus Christ's Grace, for His glory, I know Love, a.k.a. God, saved me from the wrath of God when I didn't know Grace, and this everlasting Life in Christ delivered to me is loving (John 3:3-21). Praise Lord Jesus for His successful rescue mission!

Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8), and God is Love (1 John 4:16), and grace means unearned love, yet you believe in your earnable RESISTIBLE GRACE OF GOD, so you believe that your God's earnable unearnable love fails due to man's overpowering resistance - you covey that you believe "Love fails" (1 civic 13:8) (proof post #5,496).

You call Lord Jesus Christ's successful rescue mission your wicked "hate".

I explained previously that I am a Christian because I believe in Christ Jesus, so you call Savior and God and Lord Jesus Christ your wicked "Fatal".

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD WHO IS LOVE!!!

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Fatalism is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).you god is calvin. your jesus is another gospel.


Col 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ

1 Timothy 6:20-21
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid irreverent, empty chatter and the opposing arguments of so-called “knowledge,” / which some have professed and thus swerved away from the faith. Grace be with you all.

1 Corinthians 3:18-20
Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. / For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” / And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. / For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it very easily.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— / which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. / But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!


1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Peter 2:1-3
Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. / Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. / In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep.

Romans 16:17-18
Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. / For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.


2 Timothy 3:13
while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Matthew 15:9
They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’”

1 John 2:26
I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. / So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Acts 20:29-30
I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. / Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.

Isaiah 29:13
Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



It is a work. The word in the greek is a verb, a action verb and that makes it a work. Its also a command which makes it a law work 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We agree?

Are you or are you not in favor of works? Or are you finding fault on either of these?

 

[brightfame52]

@Kermos

By Lord Jesus Christ's Grace, for His glory, I know Love, a.k.a. God, saved me from the wrath of God when I didn't know Grace, and this everlasting Life in Christ delivered to me is loving (John 3:3-21). Praise Lord Jesus for His successful rescue mission!

Hi, so you believe the elect were under the wrath of God ?

 

[brightfame52]

We agree?

Are you or are you not in favor of works? Or are you finding fault on either of these?

Im not in favor of works as an condition for salvation. Works are an evidence and fruit of salvation. If you have paid attention of what Im posting you should know this

 

[MTMattie]

Im not in favor of works as an condition for salvation. Works are an evidence and fruit of salvation. If you have paid attention of what Im posting you should know this

It depends on the way you post what you post as you sound like yes, no, possibly, probably, maybe, never.

I dont mean that as a put down but there are times... and I am sure I am not the only one... who reads your replies to something someone...anyone... says and it is almost as if you are countering them just for the sake of countering.

I am exactly...in my beliefs... with you when you say this so definitively "Im not in favor of works as an condition for salvation. Works are an evidence and fruit of salvation." (Especially the later)

And I could say similar to you when you say " If you have paid attention of what Im posting you should know this"

For example you know I am " free will"

But there is so much more that people can Ummmmm Have a civil discussion over... rather then spend time on 5517 replies on.

Does it really matter one way or the other? I say that so long as people put their faith UH OH... there is that variation of believe.... go ahead, flog me... in the shed blood of Jesus.

If you do that does it matter how you come to that belief? Sorry!!!!!!!!!!

All these posts and no concensus.... sheeesh ....

And another thing.... Look how many times people say things and "prove" it by scripture and later someone will counter and prove it by scripture.

How many Preterist debates have you been in. I doubt you would come out on top.

How many debates on Sabbath/Sunday worship have you been in? You will never change the mind of those who have been taught by the writings of Ellen White... and these folks, some of anyway, do believe that if you do not do a Saturday rst/worship day you are breaking one of the 10 and some believe that only those who do the Saturday thing will make it in the end.

How many debates have you been in that someone actually will tell you that if you have not been immersed you are not saved because baptism saves.

How many Trinity debates have you had?

How many debates on atonement have you had?

How many debates on where Paradise is have you had?

How many debates on soul sleep have you been in?

How many debates on tripartite man have you had?

So much more that can actually edify oneself over if one believes in free will or predestination.

Merry Christmas

 

[brightfame52]

@MTMattie

Does it really matter one way or the other? I say that so long as people put their faith UH OH... there is that variation of believe.... go ahead, flog me... in the shed blood of Jesus.

So what is it you believe about the shed blood of Jesus for you to put your faith in it ?

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



So what is it you believe about the shed blood of Jesus for you to put your faith in it ?

Well, you never ask a simple question that can be simply answered. OKAY, I shall try to explain my view ,which I understand will not be yours or you would not have asked.

For me, the blood of Christ is the means of atonement for sin.

This had its origin going all the way back to Mosaic law where once a year, the priest, made an offering of the blood of animals on the altar of the temple for the sins of the people.

It was the "law" that had required that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness.

However this was a blood offering that was limited in its effectiveness, which is why it had to be offered again and again.

This was only a preview of the “once for all” sacrifice which Jesus offered on the cross. We are told in Hebrews 7:27

27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.​

The phrase “blood of Christ” is used several times in the New Testament and is the expression of the sacrificial death and full atoning work of Jesus on our behalf. References to the Savior’s blood include the reality that He literally bled on the cross, but more significantly that He bled and died for sinners.

The blood of Christ has the power to atone for an infinite number of sins committed by an infinite number of people throughout the ages, and all whose faith rests in that blood will be saved.

Not only does the blood of Christ redeem believers from sin and eternal punishment, but “His blood will make our consciences pure from useless acts so we may serve the living God” In Hebrews 9:14 we are told "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

This means that not only are we now free from having to offer sacrifices which are “useless” to obtain salvation, but we are free from having to rely on worthless and unproductive works of the flesh to please God.