Do you believe that you can lose your salvation and so perish?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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Are you talking about 1 Cor 2:14? Who do you think the audience is? Paul is addressing regenerate believers. He is exhorting them to abide by the Spirit of God and not to fall back into being a ψυχικὸς (purely soulish) man. Massive failure on your part to understand who Paul is talking to and talking about on your part.
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural (ψυχικὸς) man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In fact, man in general has been blessed with the spirit of man as a lamp of Jehovah. Man is not as spiritually dumb as a door knob as Calvinists make him out to be:
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the Word of Jehovah for Israel, says Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
civic
Well-known member
Like I say determinism is fatalism.
Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
- Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations. - Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Nope which has nothing to do with free will or Calvinism.
What you call "Calvinism" is compatibilism, which, as your copy and paste shows, is different from fatalism. Your own uncited quote refutes you.Like I say determinism is fatalism.
Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.
- Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.- Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.
Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.
According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.
The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.
As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.
Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.
Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.
calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.
hope this helps !!!
Of course it has to do with so-called "free will"! If you have free will, then you can walk away from God, at any time, and end up in hell. There is no security whatever, especially since libertarian free will teaches that your will is not determined by anything outside itself.
MTMattie
Active member
MTMattie
Active member
A. Free will, according to @Watchman
B. Predestination according to Calvin while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death
A. has the ability to walk away and the potential for true repentence and returning to God. God is the God Jesus told us about in Luke 15. He always welcomes the sinner back. No matter how badly His people have sinned, His desire is their return.
Think about David: David fell in his adultery with Bathsheba, but he turned around. Later he sinned again in taking a census against God's command, but again he turned around. The reason we remember David as a great king isn't the perfection of his life but the fact that he loved God so much that he gave up the world, even after the world ensnared him.
Think about the prodigal son: He was a son in his father's house (i.e. he was saved). He went off to live wildly on prostitutes and spending money freely. Eventually, he realized he was better off at home and returned. Notice that the father (God) welcomed him back before he even explained that he just wanted to be a servant in the house. He was welcomed back as a son. The three parables in Luke 15 are each about how valuable a soul is to God.
Peter is another example. He denied the Lord three times at a critical moment in history. Yet, he returned, preached the first gospel sermon, and was an elder in the church.
There was a man in the Corinthian church who was having sex with his father's wife. He kicked out of the church because of that sin, but we learn in the second letter to Corinth that he repented and came back to the Lord.
So, it is possible for someone to lose their way for a while and come back.
B. Regarding predestination under Calvin. There is no hope for those God chose to not include. They are lost.
And before you jump up and say you are not a Calvinist nor read or follow Calvin....Look at what is in the Westminster Confession of Faith
that was written about 100 years after Calvin died.
Westminster Confession of Faith, Predestination. https://www.blueletterbible.org/study/ccc/westminster/Of_Gods_Eternal_Decree.cfm
Chapter 3.III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels, (1Ti 5:21; Mat 55:41); are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death, (Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6; Pro 16:4).
You worry that with free will you might walk away and end up in hell? Though the bible shows repentance can still be viable.
Under predestination there are those that God actually chooses to end up in death, for if he does not predestine them to life, he lets them go. With no hope.
OR... are you of the "Double" pre-destination mind set that says....
Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church
We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ
opc.org
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church states, in its official Confession and Catechisms, that God has chosen some out of the human race to be saved through the finished work of Christ, thus inheriting eternal life. It also acknowledges that others of the same human race are not chosen to eternal life and therefore foreordained to everlasting punishment. This teaching is clearly stated, for example, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, section 3 which says this:
In other words, God sovereignly ordains the eternal destiny of every human being—the lost as well as the saved. This has sometimes been called "double predestination."
However, a careful study of the Westminster Standards will show that this is never to be understood to say—or even imply—that these are parallel to each other in some symmetrical way (as if every aspect in the one case has a corresponding aspect in the other). In the case of the elect there is a divine intervention called regeneration. This is a sovereign work of God the Holy Spirit whereby a sinner who is spiritually dead is made alive. It is this that enables a sinner to see and enter the Kingdom of God (as Jesus teaches in John 3). In other words, God works in those whom he has chosen to enable them to repent and believe. It follows that all the praise, credit and glory belongs to him alone. It does not belong to the elect sinner who repents and believes. In the case of those who are not elect, however, there is no internal work of God. It is not God who makes them evil. They already are evil. In their case the Word of God only hardens them in their sin. And it is to them alone—and not to God—that the blame therefore must belong for their final reprobation.
There is a God-decreed finality in both the predestination of the elect to eternal life and the foreordination of reprobate to condemnation. But there is no symmetry between them. It was for this very reason that the Westminster Assembly never used the Scriptural term predestination in speaking of the lost, but instead the term foreordination.
