An Article on free will

[praise_yeshua]

The pilgrims in England left England because they didn't have enough freedoms.
The pilgrims in Holland left Holland because they had too much freedoms.

America was a great opportunity. Some of the "founding fathers" came to America to find riches. Washington was generally a good man but he sought riches. (not saying that is bad in and of itself but it is a motivator). Jefferson and Franklin were principled men though not religious. Jefferson even tried to incorporate the ideals of all men being free (in opposition to slavery) in his early drafts of the Declaration of Independence but politics got in the way......

However, Jefferson wasn't a Christian. He wrote his own bible where he removed the miracles of Christ because he openly rejected the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Men are peculiar. "Myself included".

 

[synergy]

America was a great opportunity. Some of the "founding fathers" came to America to find riches. Washington was generally a good man but he sought riches. (not saying that is bad in and of itself but it is a motivator). Jefferson and Franklin were principled men though not religious. Jefferson even tried to incorporate the ideals of all men being free (in opposition to slavery) in his early drafts of the Declaration of Independence but politics got in the way......

However, Jefferson wasn't a Christian. He wrote his own bible where he removed the miracles of Christ because he openly rejected the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

Men are peculiar. "Myself included".

I call Jefferson the Renaissance Kid, because of his appreciation for Human Reasoning, Dignity, and Value - Humanism in other words.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Sure its a scripture, and it refers only to the Loved Elect World, the Jacobs Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Those who are believing in Jn 3:16 are the Called according to the purpose of election.

Same old same all means only the elect. The whole world means only the elect. Two can play that game. When it says God loved Jacob but Esau he hated. It means that God did not love Esau as much as he loved Jacob. God still made Esau into a great Nation.

However A true understanding the Genesis 33:4-15 (See Below)passage of scripture which describes reconciliation between Esau, who was rejected by God, and Jacob, who was selected by God, it does Not seem that the story of Jacob and Esau had anything to do with the Calvinist doctrine's idea that God predetermined that some people be saved, and condemning other to eternal damnation.

What the bible really says:

Malachi 1:1-5
1 The [a]oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi. 2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.” 4 Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will [c]return and build up the ruins”; thus says the Lord of hosts, “They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the [d]wicked territory, and the people [e]toward whom the Lord is indignant forever.” 5 Your eyes will see this and you will say, “The Lord [f]be magnified beyond the [g]border of Israel!”

Romans 9:6-18
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [a]descendants, but: “through Isaac your [c]descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [d]descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [e]stand, not [f]because of works but [g]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [h]throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Genesis 33:4-15
4 Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5 He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “[a]Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” ................................................. 8 And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9 But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10 Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, [c]for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11 Please take my [d]gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have [e]plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

 

[brightfame52]

Same old same all means only the elect. The whole world means only the elect. Two can play that game. When it says God loved Jacob but Esau he hated. It means that God did not love Esau as much as he loved Jacob. God still made Esau into a great Nation.

However A true understanding the Genesis 33:4-15 (See Below)passage of scripture which describes reconciliation between Esau, who was rejected by God, and Jacob, who was selected by God, it does Not seem that the story of Jacob and Esau had anything to do with the Calvinist doctrine's idea that God predetermined that some people be saved, and condemning other to eternal damnation.

What the bible really says:

Malachi 1:1-5
1 The [a]oracle of the word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi. 2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob; 3 but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.” 4 Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will [c]return and build up the ruins”; thus says the Lord of hosts, “They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the [d]wicked territory, and the people [e]toward whom the Lord is indignant forever.” 5 Your eyes will see this and you will say, “The Lord [f]be magnified beyond the [g]border of Israel!”

Romans 9:6-18
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [a]descendants, but: “through Isaac your [c]descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [d]descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would [e]stand, not [f]because of works but [g]because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [h]throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Genesis 33:4-15
4 Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5 He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “[a]Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” ................................................. 8 And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9 But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10 Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, [c]for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11 Please take my [d]gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have [e]plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

Nothing changes

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Nothing changes

I know it's sad huh? But there's always hope. I've heard there's a few Former Calvinists on this form that have come to the light. God bless their souls.

 

[brightfame52]

I know it's sad huh? But there's always hope. I've heard there's a few Former Calvinists on this form that have come to the light. God bless their souls.

Yes theres hope that God will grant some repentance, but its entirely up to Him. Depends on whether or not they elect

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Yes theres hope that God will grant some repentance, but its entirely up to Him. Depends on whether or not they elect

you got jokes.

 

[Kermos]

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

But I chose you (ἀλλʼ ἐγω ἐξελεξαμην ὑμας [all’ egō exelexamēn humas]). First aorist middle indicative of ἐκλεγω [eklegō]. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (6:70; 13:18; 15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luke 6:13).11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 15:16.

Examine

Luke 6:12 In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor11 The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Lk 6:12–16.

God had given to Christ his disciples and Christ chose 12 to be apostles

These he had chosen

In Luke 6:12-16, nothing states that Christ did not choose anyone beyond the 12 Apostles, but the passage does show that Christ did this particular choosing of the 12 Apostles years before Christ had the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, so these two instances about Christ's choice are temporally separate with two differing groups about whom Christ alluded.

You propounded “God had given to Christ his disciples and Christ chose 12 to be apostles These he had chosen” as the closing of your post respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
​

In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

You answered “Yes” to the question of “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?” as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus’ first two “you” occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus’ second two “you” occurrences apply “exclusively to the apostles”:

I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you
(Lord Jesus Christ, ).
​

Your heart’s treasure results in “I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles” (the self-contradictory word of TomL).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

 

[Kermos]

Sorry no. You twist the passage

World corresponds to everyone bitten. That is the entirety of those bitten

Everyone bitten could look to the serpent

Everyone in the world could believe and be saved

For christ came to save the world

John 3:17 (ESV) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

compare the parallel verse

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

where those who do not keep his word are among the world he came to save

see also

Reconciling the world unto himself. The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all men; see Note on ver. 14. It may be observed further, that God sought that the world should be reconciled

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 130.

the world—all men (Col 1:20; 1 Jn 2:2). The manner of the reconciling is by His “not imputing to men their trespasses,” but imputing them to Christ the Sin-bearer.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 309.

God was reconciling the world unto himself, means God was making atonement for the sins of the world. He set Christ forth as a propitiation. Theodoret explains ἦν καταλλάσσων by καταλλαγὰς ἐποιήσατο. By the world (κόσμος, without the article) is meant man, mankind

Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the Second Epistle to the Corinthians. (New York: A. C. Armstrong & Son, 1891), 144.

As i stated nowhere does it ever refer to the elect

To be noted the object of his reconciliation cannot vary from the extent of those he came to save and he came to save every sinner

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Your "World corresponds to everyone bitten. That is the entirety of those bitten Everyone bitten could look to the serpent Everyone in the world could believe and be saved" is false because it is written "YHWH sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died" (Numbers 21:6) BEFORE YHWH commanded Moses to "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live" (Numbers 21:8), so many people of Israel were already dead before the "the serpent in the wilderness" was even fashioned; therefore, your "Everyone bitten could look to the serpent" is out of accord with Holy Scripture, so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" (John 3:14-16) as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY, and in the continuation of this post, you can find the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that various scripturally accurate contextual definitions for the word world exist:

Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)​

 

[Kermos]

This is Truth (John 14:6) yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)​

The word "world" possesses a variety of definitions in scripture, and the context of the word "world" generally sets the definition.

The Greek word κόσμος (kosmos, Strong's 2889 - world) translates to "world".

The Word "World" in Ephesians 1:1-14​

Paul mentions "before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) in the passage.

The "world" as used by Paul here indicates all the earth and all that is in it.

Paul refers to the time before the earth ("world") was created.

The word "world" in Ephesians 1:4 is the earth and all that is in the earth.

The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)​

The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.
(Numbers 21:8-9)
​

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16 includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every one" (John 3:16, note that the singular (not plural) Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every one" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.

Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.

Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).

This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.

Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

When self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.

If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.

Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons who currently are or in the future will be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

The Word "World" in The Book of the First Letter of John (1 John 2:2, 1 John 5:19)​

The Apostle John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

The Apostle John also wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Notice "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author.

Since free-will supporting persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then such persons interpretation of "the whole world" has such free-will supporting persons themselves as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.

The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

Because John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), then this means Christians are beyond the evil one; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one.

This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.

This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.

This means that free-will supporting persons have not overcome the evil one since such free-will supporting persons include themselves in "the whole world" thus including themselves as lying in the evil one.

The "lies" or "lying" in the evil one is similar to "abides" or "abiding" in the evil one, so there is a tight relationship between such free-will supporting persons and the evil one.

The English word "lies" in 1 John 2:2 derives from the Greek word "κεῖται" (Strong's 2749 - keimai - to be laid, lie) which specifically means "lay".

This means that free-will supporting persons are not Christians, and it is the free-will supporting persons definition of "world" that effectually makes such free-will supporting persons Non-Christians, that is, unbelievers.

This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible.

These two different meanings for the word "world", "the whole world", occur in one book of the New Testament.

It is time to return to 1 John 2:2.

• John was writing to God's own people in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John), so the context is believers, John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) - that "our" and the upcoming "ours" are believers, so continuing on with that which John wrote "and not for ours only, but also for the whole world".
• A believer reading 1 John 2:2 knows that God converted the believer from "the whole world" into the "our" of God's assembly of believers (Matthew 18:3), yet an unbeliever who reads 1 John 2:2 considers Jesus' sacrifice foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14); therefore, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who God is yet to work faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).
• The phrase "{b]the whole world[/b]" in 1 John 2:2 refers only to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted the work of God which is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29); otherwise, the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 results in everyone everywhere being saved from the wrath of God, a.k.a. universalism, yet universalism is deception because the Word of God says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 7:21) thus Jesus indicates that some people do not enter heaven which means those people go to hell (Matthew 25:41).
• The phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 refers only persons yet to become part of Israel, the true Israel (Romans 9:6) and persons grafted into Israel (Romans 11:11-36), for the Word of God says "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).

In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" does not include persons that currently have been imparted the work of God, faith/belief, in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29) because John led with "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only", so John uses "our" for exclusively current believers and John uses "world" for exclusively future believers.
The word "world" in 1 John 2:2 is the population of persons who are yet to be imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

The word "world" in 1 John 5:19 is the population of persons who have NOT been imparted the work of God that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29), and this population of persons includes persons that will not be imparted faith/belief before such persons die.

Behold, the two different populations of persons represented by "world" in the Book of the First Letter of John (1 John).

Conclusion About The Word "World" in The New Testament Books​

The word "world" has four different meanings in the above passages.

The word "world" does not of necessity need to be defined as "all the people that are in it".

The word "world" in the New Testament Books is generally defined by the context around the word.

 

[Kermos]

Sorry kosmos no where refers to the elect alone as shown in BDAG

and these calvinist authors

Reconciling the world unto himself. The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all men

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 130.

the world—all men (Col 1:20; 1 Jn 2:2). The manner of the reconciling is by His “not imputing to men their trespasses,” but imputing them to Christ the Sin-bearer

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 309.

and the references to world in scripture is contrary to that idea

And this refutes it entirely

John 12:47–48 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Christ in his coming does not judge any unbeliever for he came to save not judge the world at that time

So all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world

You wrote "all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world" which is true, and

We God's chosen (elect), we who are currently believers, we were a part of the world, back when we were not believers, before God delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (Colossians 1:13) for it is written "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come" (Revelation 17:8), so the name of every single one of God's elect (chosen) persons is known prior to the birth of anyone of us God's chosen (God's elect) persons.

Your "no where refers to the elect alone as shown in BDAG" is out of accord with Apostolic testimony shown in the paragraph above and the paragraph below.

The Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) is that every one of God's chosen (elect) was part of the world as an unbeliever but God chose to transfer every single one out of the evil world into God's Glorious Kingdom! For the wonderful Word of God declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

 

[Kermos]

The issue is not that you believe he chooses, but Why does he choose?

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

I am in awe of the marvelous works of God - of He Who created all Heaven and Earth and all that is in them - I just say "PRAISE JESUS, THE UNRIVALED KING REIGNING FOREVER, YOU ARE UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT EXCEPT AS YOU CHOOSE BY EXTENDING YOUR SCEPTER TO PERMIT APPROACH TO YOUR HOLINESS!"

You ask "why does He choose", but God answered Job "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding" (Job 38:4).

I believe God does as God Wills for God's good pleasure to the glory of God.

If it is not based on anything you do, then it is unconditional election

The Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). means that we Christians contribute nothing to being saved from the wrath of God.

My Salvation is exclusively conditional on my Lord Jesus Christ's choosing.

Your "If it is not based on anything you do, then it is unconditional election" is a false statement.

Can you deny this?

God has caused me to prove that wrong according to the Word of God again and again, just follow the thread clickstream prior post links.

You were asked previously do you deny unconditional election

where is your answer?

Hiding behind God chooses does not mean you deny unconditional election

I deny unconditional choice. I denied unconditional choice again and again, just follow the thread clickstream prior post links.

Every Christian's Salvation is exclusively conditional on my Lord Jesus Christ's choosing because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Sorry there is nothing about unconditionality in john 6

Christ choose the disciples, those he was depending on to carry his message.

He was not trying to win big crowds at that time.

God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It does not not equate to unconditional election

Since the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), then your heart's treasure of "God chooses to save those that believe" has absolutely nothing to do with a work of man.

You say "unconditional election" does not exist.

I say "unconditional choice" does not exist.

You say "unconditional election" does not exist because "This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of TomL).

I say "unconditional choice" does not exist because "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29).

The choice of the apostle Paul has nothing to do with the salvation of anyone

God's choosing of Paul most certainly had to do with Paul's salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10, Galatians 1:15), so your heart's treasure of "The choice of the apostle Paul has nothing to do with the salvation of anyone" is false.

God's choice of Paul most certainly had to do with a number of Jew's salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10, Ephesians 2:3-4), so your heart's treasure of "The choice of the apostle Paul has nothing to do with the salvation of anyone" is false.

God's choice of Paul most certainly had to do with many Gentile's salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10), so your heart's treasure of "The choice of the apostle Paul has nothing to do with the salvation of anyone" is false.

The term is world. It generally refers to the mass of mankind as opposed to God

The world knew not Christ (John 1:10).

The world hates Christ (John 7:7).

The world’s works are evil (John 7:7).

Unsaved Jews were of this world (John 8:23).

Satan is the prince of this world (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11).

Christ’s own are distinguished from the world (John 13:1, 14:19, 22).

The world cannot receive the Holy Spirit (John 14:17).

The world hates the disciples (John 15:18, 17:14).

The disciples were not of the world (John 15:19, 17:16). The world brings tribulation (John 16:33).

The disciples were out of the World (John 17:6).

Christ prayed not for the world when he prayed for his own (John 17:9).

Christ is not of the world (John 17:16).

The world did not know God John (John 17:25)

It is a universal word

Reconciling the world unto himself. The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all men

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 130.

the world—all men (Col 1:20; 1 Jn 2:2). The manner of the reconciling is by His “not imputing to men their trespasses,” but imputing them to Christ the Sin-bearer

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 309.

As even these calvinists resources note

The scope of his reconciliation cannot differ from the extent of those he came to save

thus

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

anyone who does not keep his word is one who Christ was reconciling

it's the same world

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ESV) — 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Sorry nowhere does the term world refer to the elect and no lexicon gives it any such meaning

You wrote "nowhere does the term world refer to the elect and no lexicon gives it any such meaning"; in contrast, the Apostle Paul uses the term world as the place where God's elect (chosen) formerly walked when Paul wrote "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved and raised us up with Him" (Ephesians 2:1-6).

See that God's chosen (elect) formerly lived aa were by nature children of wrath (notice past tense "lived" and "were"), but God does something wonderful exclusively with God's elect (chosen) for God made us alive together with Christ (notice "made", not "your choice made you").

Paul has the word "world" include God's chosen (elect) prior to God's elect (chosen) being saved and raised us up with Him.

The Apostle John wrote "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come" (Revelation 17:8), so the name of every single one of God's chosen (elect) persons is known prior to the birth of anyone of us God's elect (God's chosen) persons.

Your heart's treasure of "nowhere does the term world refer to the elect and no lexicon gives it any such meaning" is false; in contrast, the clause "nowhere does the term world refer to the disciples" is Truth (John 14:6).

In the context of the parable your quote What is required to be chosen is to have on the proper wedding garment is not unconditional

The wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christ. One obtains that righteousness through faith. It is not unconditional

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21), so Lord Jesus Christ's shedding of His precious Blood gives us Christians the righteousness of Christ covering to worship God in the One True God's Holy presence. We do nothing, for anyone who believes that he works a choice towards God in order to stand in God's Holy presence, that person will be consumed by a consuming fire because such a person is not covered by the Word of God who declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your ignorance of the practice does not advance your theology

11. A man which had not on a wedding garment. Anciently kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt, Ge. 45:22; 2 Ki. 10:22; Es. 6:8; 8:15. It was, of course, expected that such garments would be worn when they came into the presence of the benefactor. The garments worn on festival occasions were chiefly long white robes, and it was the custom of the person who made the feast to prepare such robes to be worn by the guests. This renders the conduct of this man more inexcusable. He came in his common and ordinary dress, as he was taken from the highway; and though he had not a garment of his own suitable for the occasion, yet one had been provided for him, if he had applied for it

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Matthew & Mark (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 232.

which had not on a wedding garment—The language here is drawn from the following remarkable passage in Zep 1:7, 8:—“Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God; for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, He hath bid His guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord’s sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.” The custom in the East of presenting festival garments (see Ge 45:22; 2 Ki 5:22), even though not clearly proved, is certainly presupposed here. It undoubtedly means something which they bring not of their own—for how could they have any such dress who were gathered in from the highways indiscriminately?—but which they receive as their appropriate dress. And what can that be but what is meant by “putting on the Lord Jesus,” as “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS?” (See Ps 45:13, 14).

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 54.

Even these Calvinists support my claim

You imported a human historical analogy while considering Matthew 22:2-14, "Anciently kings and princes were accustomed to make presents of changes of raiment to their friends and favourites, to refuse to receive which was an expression of highest contempt"; therefore, you convey that a king of antiquity gave dress to a person with the royal expectation that the person would wear the clothing supplied by the king - the king's subject contributed nothing to the regally required raiment - the garments are all the king and not the person. A king's provincial official had a royaly appointed attendant whose duty was to dress the royaly sanctioned official. Regardless of attendant or no, the person's body is covered under license from the king, and the King did not give the person a choice to wear the clothes.

Earthly analogies tend to fall short, so let's return to the voice of the Master.

King Jesus conveys God's awesome and mighty exclusive control of choosing man unto man being saved from the wrath of God in this parable (Matthew 22:2-14) for this loving King says He chooses man with:

many are summoned, but few are chosen
(the Word of God, Matthew 22:14)

​

So, your "The wedding garment represents the righteousness of Christ. One obtains that righteousness through faith. It is not unconditional" is true because the "faithl" that you mentioned is entirely God's choosing to work in a person for the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

See, the punishment of the people who avoided the summons aa the King sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire (Matthew 22:7), so the King did not choose those people for salvation.

Moreover, the man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes (Matthew 22:11) was summoned by God's chosen people (Matthew 22:9-10), yet that man's sin was not covered by the Blood of Christ; in other words, the King did not choose that man for salvation because the king said to the slaves, "Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 22:13).

God alone provides the wedding dress for the Word of God declares "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20) and "Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:56); moreover, "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and "Love covers over a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

God causes me to write "the King did not choose that man for salvation" because the Word of God says "many are summoned, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14) at the conclusion of the parable.

You misrepresented the Word of God recorded in Matthew 22:2-14 as demonstrated in the above.

You still show no sign of repentance for your addition/subtraction from Revelation 22:17! In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. In your self will, you conveyed that unholy ones are present in Revelation 22:17, TomL, so you added to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19).

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE PRECIOUS LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[TomL]

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

 

[TomL]

You wrote "all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world" which is true, and

We God's chosen (elect), we who are currently believers, we were a part of the world, back when we were not believers, before God delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (Colossians 1:13) for it is written "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come" (Revelation 17:8), so the name of every single one of God's elect (chosen) persons is known prior to the birth of anyone of us God's chosen (God's elect) persons.

Your "no where refers to the elect alone as shown in BDAG" is out of accord with Apostolic testimony shown in the paragraph above and the paragraph below.

The Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) is that every one of God's chosen (elect) was part of the world as an unbeliever but God chose to transfer every single one out of the evil world into God's Glorious Kingdom! For the wonderful Word of God declares "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Your admission that all unbelievers are encompassed by the term world in itself is sufficient to refute your view

That is who Christ came to save. So your doctrine of limited atonement is false

BTW Neither of your verses show that world means elect alone

And your claim

"Your "no where refers to the elect alone as shown in BDAG" is out of accord with Apostolic testimony shown in the paragraph above and the paragraph below."

is clearly false

 

[TomL]

Your "World corresponds to everyone bitten. That is the entirety of those bitten Everyone bitten could look to the serpent Everyone in the world could believe and be saved" is false because it is written "YHWH sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died" (Numbers 21:6) BEFORE YHWH commanded Moses to "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live" (Numbers 21:8), so many people of Israel were already dead before the "the serpent in the wilderness" was even fashioned; therefore, your "Everyone bitten could look to the serpent" is out of accord with Holy Scripture, so the Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" (John 3:14-16) as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY, and in the continuation of this post, you can find the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) that various scripturally accurate contextual definitions for the word world exist:

Context in the New Testament Establishes the Meaning of the Greek Word κόσμος/Kosmos (World)​

Sorry but that is an error as shown by BDAG and multiple Calvinist theologians

....................................

Sorry no. You twist the passage

World corresponds to everyone bitten. That is the entirety of those bitten

Everyone bitten could look to the serpent

Everyone in the world could believe and be saved

For christ came to save the world

John 3:17 (ESV) — 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

compare the parallel verse

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

where those who do not keep his word are among the world he came to save

see also

Reconciling the world unto himself. The world here evidently means the human race generally, without distinction of nation, age, or rank. The whole world was alienated from him, and he sought to have it reconciled. This is one incidental proof that God designed that the plan of salvation should be adapted to all men; see Note on ver. 14. It may be observed further, that God sought that the world should be reconciled

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 130.

the world—all men (Col 1:20; 1 Jn 2:2). The manner of the reconciling is by His “not imputing to men their trespasses,” but imputing them to Christ the Sin-bearer.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 309.

God was reconciling the world unto himself, means God was making atonement for the sins of the world. He set Christ forth as a propitiation. Theodoret explains ἦν καταλλάσσων by καταλλαγὰς ἐποιήσατο. By the world (κόσμος, without the article) is meant man, mankind

Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the Second Epistle to the Corinthians. (New York: A. C. Armstrong & Son, 1891), 144.

As i stated nowhere does it ever refer to the elect

To be noted the object of his reconciliation cannot vary from the extent of those he came to save and he came to save every sinner

and scripture

John 12:47 (ESV) — 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

and you admitted world encompasses all unbelievers

finally the defect of your argument resides in the fact that once the atonement was provided for the serpent bite it was available to all

Calvinist commentary. lexicons, and scripture all refute your claim

 

[TomL]

In Luke 6:12-16, nothing states that Christ did not choose anyone beyond the 12 Apostles, but the passage does show that Christ did this particular choosing of the 12 Apostles years before Christ had the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17, so these two instances about Christ's choice are temporally separate with two differing groups about whom Christ alluded.

You propounded “God had given to Christ his disciples and Christ chose 12 to be apostles These he had chosen” as the closing of your post respecting John 15:16-19, yet you contradict yourself in your self-will because you reviled these angelic majesties by effectively labeling the Apostles as deceivers with your “Nothing mentioned about Joseph and Matthias being in the audience on that ocassion” as recorded in post #645 of which your thoughts there daringly contradict angelic majesties testimony of the Apostle Peter “men who have accompanied us all the time” (Acts 1:21) while Peter was with all the Apostles.

Joseph and Matthias were in the room when Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) during the supper recorded in John chapters 13-17.

So, you call the Apostles all liars because all the remaining Apostles were with the Apostle Peter when Peter said:

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Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us – one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.’ So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.​

(Acts 1:21-23)​

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In the upper room occupied by Jesus’ disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter’s prounouncement of “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us – beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us”.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the Apostles for a minimum total of 13 disciples who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ’s “you” in John 15:16 and John 15:19 extends well beyond the Apostles, in Truth (John 14:6)!

Christ uses “you” to indicate all Christians in all time are chosen by God alone unto salvation as well as to bring the message of Christ’s salvation to the world when King Jesus majestically decrees “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation). Your evasion of the King’s decree is a terror.

You answered “Yes” to the question of “Do you think you are a friend of Jesus, @TomL?” as recorded in post #576, so you, @TomL, reveal your confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33) as you assert that in John 15:15-16, as shown below, that Jesus’ first two “you” occurrences apply to you, @TomL personally, but that Jesus’ second two “you” occurrences apply “exclusively to the apostles”:

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I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you​

(Lord Jesus Christ, ).​

Your heart’s treasure results in “I have called you with that guy TomL friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You apostles here now did not choose Me but I chose exclusively you apostles” (the self-contradictory word of TomL).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!

You failed to show christ chose any other than his apostles

The father had given to him his disciples and from them he chose 12. The bible never states he chose more than them

PS Christ did not choose Matthias

Christs choice was of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12 (NASB 2020) — 6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV) — 13 And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles: 14 Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew, 15 and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.

John 6:70 (ESV) — 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”


clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not chosen me. The word here translated chosen is that from which is derived the word elect, and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mar. 13:20; Mat. 24:22, 24, 31; Col. 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See Jn. 6:70; also Mat. 4:18–22.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV) — 1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3 and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. 4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.” ’ 5 But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, 6 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”


Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.



Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Because i believe i am a friend of Christ's does not mean he was addressing any more than his apostles at the time

Your position suffers from the following defects

Christ is never stated as having chosen all his disciples. They were given to him by the father
Christ is stated to have chosen the 12 out of his disciples who were given by the Father
One who Christ chose was not saved
Matthiasus is never stated to have been chosen by Christ

you are reading your theology into the passage and assuming every choice refers to unconditional salvation

yet there is not a single passage in the bible that actually mentions unconditional election to salvation

Further we know God chooses to save those that believe

1 Corinthians 1:21 (ESV) — 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

That is his choice, and it does not support your belief in unconditional election.


abnd w

 

[Anja]

I like what Leighton Flowers Has to say about unconditional election. As an ex-Calvinist he knows what he's talking about.

For the Calvinist, “unconditional election” means that God does not foresee any action or condition, including faith, that induces him to choose one individual over another. Rather, election rests on God’s arbitrary decision to effectuate faith in whomever he is pleased to save. John Calvin expressed it in this way:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Some are predestined to salvation, others to damnation.… Regarding the lost: it was His good pleasure to doom to destruction.… Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and He can give life or death at His pleasure, He dispenses and ordains by His judgment that some, from their mother’s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify His name in their perdition.

Ironically, the Calvinist application of unconditional election reflects the erroneous perception of the unbelieving Jews in the first century, who supposed themselves to be born unconditionally elect, simply on account of being born as children of Abraham in the flesh. John the Baptist dealt with this issue as well:

When he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don’t presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. The ax is already at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matt 3:7–10)

Paul dealt with this same issue writing to the church at Rome when he stated that “not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Neither is it the case that all of Abraham’s children are his descendants.… That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring” (Rom 9:6–8). So, in the same way that John the Baptist and the apostles had to deal with the perceived unconditional election of all Jews in the flesh, modern-day Christian apologists must deal with the perceived unconditional election that Calvinists suppose upon themselves.


Leighton Flowers, “A Critique of Unconditional Election,”

 

[TomL]

My Salvation is exclusively conditional on my Lord Jesus Christ's choosing.

Your "If it is not based on anything you do, then it is unconditional election" is a false statement.



God has caused me to prove that wrong according to the Word of God again and again, just follow the thread clickstream prior post links.



I deny unconditional choice. I denied unconditional choice again and again, just follow the thread clickstream prior post links.

Every Christian's Salvation is exclusively conditional on my Lord Jesus Christ's choosing because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), includes salvation) as well as "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Which is unrelated to anything you do, think or say in Calvinism

They call that unconditional election whether you like that definition or not.

 

[TomL]

Since the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), then your heart's treasure of "God chooses to save those that believe" has absolutely nothing to do with a work of man.

Repeating your refuted arguments over and over does not make them any stronger

Even Calvinist authors can be seen to reject your claim

John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.



Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.

as well as others

The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.

We know scripture does as well

Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

including the fact God/Christ had to harden men/hide truth to prevent belief

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

You say "unconditional election" does not exist.

No i stated unconditional election to salvation does not exist

I say "unconditional choice" does not exist.

You say "unconditional election" does not exist because "This is the work of man, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the word of TomL).

I say "unconditional choice" does not exist because "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (the Word of God, John 6:29).

We already saw both scripture and your own peers refute you

 

[Cyrus]

If Jesus choosing us is what saves us why did he need to go to the cross? Why did he say if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."? Does all Men mean just the elect?

He didn't say if I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw you and you and you the rest of you guys you're out of luck.