An Article on free will

Joe said:
I told you I would not continue "for the rest of your post", "until we both come to the consensus of the bible that man does have liberty of will to refuse sin and choose to obey God or not."

I gave you biblical accounts in context that disprove the erroneous belief that man cannot decide to choose God. Moses is one of those accounts. I noticed you did not explain how Moses refused the pleasures of sin and chose instead to be mistreated with his people.

“By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.” (Heb 11:24-25)

The account of Moses happened before God called him to lead his people. So there was no choosing of God at this point.

So I ask you again, "Was Moses forced by God to refuse sin and choose being mistreated with God's people?"
"Under what power did Moses bow his will?"

And about repentance, "Does God force anyone to repent? Or does God command men to repent, to have a change of mind and turn away from living to the flesh and live by faith in Him?"


As for willingness...

Our Lord spoke a parable of a wedding.
  • "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come." (Mat 22:2-3)
We know this parable is in reference to the unwillingness of the Jewish people to accept God's invite to eternal salvation through His Son. God invited them first to eternal salvation and they were not willing to come.

You may object and say it was not God's will for them to be saved. And yet the next example disproves that erroneous thought.

In another example our Lord lamented over the Jewish people.
  • "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mat 23:37)
This statement clearly states God's will was to save the Jewish people but they were not willing.

These two verbal exchanges contextually prove God's will was to save the Jewish people but they were not willing.

And lastly the Apostle John stated:
  • "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:11-13)
The order of salvation is given by John:
  1. to those who did receive/accept Him; to those who believe in His name
  2. He gave them the right to become the children of God. Who were born of the will of God.
This statement from John is clear.
Jesus came to His own and they did not receive/accept/believe Him. And we know God wanted to save them because Jesus said so. Our Lord gave them the invite to eternal life first, but they were not willing to come. And because of their unwillingness, the Kingdom was taken from them and given to us Gentiles who would bear its fruit.​

Nowhere in the bible does it say or imply God makes one willing to repent and believe Him. It is simply not there.

The onus of this is upon the hearer to accept by faith God’s invite to be forgiven and live with Him forever. By faith, one will either accept God’s invite or not. One will either refuse sin and choose God like Moses or in unbelief refuse God and continue in their sin.

Here is your moment to answer the questions biblically without distorting the context to prove your dogma. I am not interested in any response except to answer my questions with the bible.

You approached me. I did not approach you. If you want to hold a meaningful dialogue with me, I ask you to please lose the pontificating attitude. It is beneath you in Christ.

God Bless
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another great rebuttal Joe, keep up the good work defending the truth !
 
Rockson said:
Here's what you've done to your mind and are seeking to do to others.
It can be compared to this. I've seen numbers of Christians make a circle around a person to pray.....One in the circle while praying say to the one, "Hang on brother hang on!" (meaning hang on to the promises of God) Another is saying, "Let go brother let go!" (meaning give over your problems to God)
What the person is hearing though is, Hang On! Let Go! Hang on! Let Go! They could actually both be right knowing the context of their statements and what they mean but you never could be.

You can't have God is making them but he isn't, he's making them but he isn't because you always have to come back to ....HE MADE THEM DO IT. Calvinism is therefore a contradiction of any an all rational thought, I've said before it's like an amusement park ride, the Scrambler. You're sent with force one direction and then it swings back with force the opposite way. In other words one doesn't know if they're coming or going! Now keep in mind the Scrambler theology that Calvinist have and read the following verse,

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:14

So when one is advocating God is making them but he isn't because they're willfully doing it.....they're trying to put you on the Scrambler and the effect will be to toss you to and fro....consider this is NOT THE WILL OF God. He wants your minds to have stability and peace.
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Amen !
 
brightfame52 said:
Its blasphemy to say, even imply, somebody thwarted Gods Purpose, its the height of impiety. And Salvation is according to Gods Purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Learn this about Gods Purpose friend, and may he teach people not to blaspheme Isa 14:24
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Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I know you are not allowed to discuss many scriptures because to do so would bring question to your adopted religious philosophy.

But I would ask the question anyway for those reading along.

What is God's Will here? That men "turn away from Sin" Yes? That is the purpose of this warning.

So then, not according to your religion, but according to God, "His Will, HIS Purpose for Speaking these Words, is that men will hear Him, "yield themselves" servants to obey HIM, submit themselves to Him, and cast away their transgressions, as per His stated Will. His Will, His Purpose, is that men "Turn themselves" and Live. He has the power to turn them. He could have created them like animals who don't need laws, because they have no free will. But HE didn't.

It was the WILL of God that Jerusalem be gathered up into the arms of His Son. But "They would not". It isn't that God didn't have power to turn them, it's because it's God's Will for men to choose Him, over their own imaginations, traditions, religions, etc.

God chose Moses, and the Prophets, and His son, and His Disciples to show us God's Will, and examples of God's Righteousness and His wrath against all unrighteousness of men. And we have been shown, so as Paul says, there is no excuse.

So it is clear that it is God's Will that men consider HIS Words and choose Him. But in order for God to be Just, a man presented with a choice, must have choices to choose from. So God placed "another voice" in the garden with Adam and Eve, so that they could "Choose", as an example for us. He gave unto Israel, Life and Death, and told them to "choose" life, so that they would live, which was His Will. He placed me in a world with false doctrines and religious philosophies, Calvinism is only one of many wicked doctrines, and instructed me to study so as not to be deceived by this world's religious men "Who come in Christ's Name".

Is. 14: 24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

And what does this same GOD teach me that HE purposed?

EZ. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

To adopt the religion you are promoting, I would have to ignore and omit these Holy Words of God as HE defines for me HIS Will.

Why would I do that?
 
brightfame52 said:
Its His Power sure, however the one He predetermined to do His will does it willing from their own accountable to God volition. When God predetermined and did harden the heart of king of sihon to forbid Israel so He could destroy him, the king wasnt forced, he did it willingly Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Even though God Almighty actively hardened his spirit, and MADE his heart obstinate, he will tell you, he wasnt forced
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Power which overcomes the will of man

thus force
 
Kermos said:
The phrase "universal call" is mentioned not in 2 Corinthians 5:20. The "world" in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is exclusively the people that God will convert into the children of God because Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so 2 Corinthians 5:19-20 is constrained by 2 Corinthians 1:1.

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, Paul is addressing specifically converts/believers (2 Corinthians 1:1); therefore, Paul is not addressing unconverted/unbelievers. Anyone who responded to Paul is under "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), so for one to be be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20) is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

Lord Jesus Christ says "many are called, but few are chosen" (the Word of God, Matthew 22:14).

In Isaiah 55:3, Isaiah 45:22, and Isaiah 55:1, the Word of God issues commands, and commands do not convey ability. The Apostle Peter addressed the commands found in the Old Testament with "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" (Acts 15:10), so one who obeys any of the commands is entirely dependent on "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).

In Revelation 22:17, the ONLY participants identified in the exchange are The Spirit and the Bride saying “Come.”. We are told of the presence of Holy God and the saints ("holy ones") only in Revelation 22:17. You better be careful about conveying that unholy ones are present, here, TomL, because adding to Revelation carries dire consequences (Revelation 22:18-19).

None of those passages that you quoted states that man can choose God unto salvation, so your spirit is clearly evident because your heart falsifies the Word of God (1 John 4:1).

The Word of God explicitly excludes man from being able to choose God unto salvation with Christ's powerful:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! PRAISE BE TO THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!!!
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again

The idea that believers are being called on to be reconciled is absurd

2 Corinthians 5:20 (NASB 2020) — 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

and the call is universal as it is to be proclaimed to all and God action was on behalf of the world

2 Corinthians 5:18–19 (ESV) — 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

and those chosen are those who put on the wedding dress which is the righteousness of faith

Matthew 22:9–14 (ESV) — 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10 And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

there is no support for your doctrine here


and it is those who believe who are chosen

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB 2020) — 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Your belief that men are unconditionally chosen to salvation is found nowhere in scripture
 
Kermos said:
“And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?” (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57).

The phrase "choose God" is absent from Deuteronomy 30:11–19 and Joshua 24:15–22.
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Newsflash

Joshua 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, 17 for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the LORD, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Clearly a choice was offered and a choice made
 
Kermos said:
“And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?” (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57).
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Why did you ignore the god given affirmation of ability?

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB 2020) — 11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it. 15 “See, I have placed before you today life and happiness, and death and adversity, 16 in that I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, so that you may live and become numerous, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but allow yourself to be led astray and you worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and take possession of it. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

clearly God claims they had the ability to chose life
 
Kermos said:
“And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?” (Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 12:57).

The phrase "choose God" is absent from Deuteronomy 30:11–19 and Joshua 24:15–22.

Isreal was punished for opposition to God after the Deuteronomy 30:11–19 and Joshua 24:15–22, so God conferred no ability to choose God in Deuteronomy 30:11–19 and Joshua 24:15–22.

The Hebrew Word For “Choose” And It’s Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong’s Number 977

Beholding Joshua 24:15

Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.

IF you_do_this that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is “to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes”; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to “choice” nor “free will” towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.

Disagreeable does not mean choose.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said “choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living” (Joshua 24:15), and the word “choose” in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong’s Number 977).

Finaly, Joshua states “[b[but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD[/b[“, and there is no reference to “choice” nor “free will” towards God (Joshua 24:15).

A state of being, “disagreeable”, is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, “serve”, is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15

​

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clearly you are in denial and A choice was made

Joshua 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, 17 for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the LORD, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
 
TomL said:
Newsflash

Joshua 24:15–22 (ESV) — 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, 17 for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. 18 And the LORD drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the LORD, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy God. He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm and consume you, after having done you good.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Then Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD, to serve him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Clearly a choice was offered and a choice made
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don't you know that is not a real choice but a predetermined choice lol.
 
civic said:
yes it is since man has no freedom of the will to decide and choose- the puppeteer is pulling all the strings not the puppet.

Robotics/ A.I. 101.

hope this helps !!!
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Force isnt in the equation, man unjustly puts it there, Gods making or causing one to do something, they will do it willingly.
 
Studyman said:
Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

I know you are not allowed to discuss many scriptures because to do so would bring question to your adopted religious philosophy.

But I would ask the question anyway for those reading along.

What is God's Will here? That men "turn away from Sin" Yes? That is the purpose of this warning.

So then, not according to your religion, but according to God, "His Will, HIS Purpose for Speaking these Words, is that men will hear Him, "yield themselves" servants to obey HIM, submit themselves to Him, and cast away their transgressions, as per His stated Will. His Will, His Purpose, is that men "Turn themselves" and Live. He has the power to turn them. He could have created them like animals who don't need laws, because they have no free will. But HE didn't.

It was the WILL of God that Jerusalem be gathered up into the arms of His Son. But "They would not". It isn't that God didn't have power to turn them, it's because it's God's Will for men to choose Him, over their own imaginations, traditions, religions, etc.

God chose Moses, and the Prophets, and His son, and His Disciples to show us God's Will, and examples of God's Righteousness and His wrath against all unrighteousness of men. And we have been shown, so as Paul says, there is no excuse.

So it is clear that it is God's Will that men consider HIS Words and choose Him. But in order for God to be Just, a man presented with a choice, must have choices to choose from. So God placed "another voice" in the garden with Adam and Eve, so that they could "Choose", as an example for us. He gave unto Israel, Life and Death, and told them to "choose" life, so that they would live, which was His Will. He placed me in a world with false doctrines and religious philosophies, Calvinism is only one of many wicked doctrines, and instructed me to study so as not to be deceived by this world's religious men "Who come in Christ's Name".

Is. 14: 24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

And what does this same GOD teach me that HE purposed?

EZ. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

To adopt the religion you are promoting, I would have to ignore and omit these Holy Words of God as HE defines for me HIS Will.

Why would I do that?
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Its blasphemy to say, even imply, somebody thwarted Gods Purpose, its the height of impiety. And Salvation is according to Gods Purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Learn this about Gods Purpose friend, and may he teach people not to blaspheme Isa 14:24
 
TomL said:
Power which overcomes the will of man

thus force
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Its His Power sure, however the one He predetermined to do His will does it willing from their own accountable to God volition. When God predetermined and did harden the heart of king of sihon to forbid Israel so He could destroy him, the king wasnt forced, he did it willingly Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Even though God Almighty actively hardened his spirit, and MADE his heart obstinate, he will tell you, he wasnt forced
 
brightfame52 said:
Force isnt in the equation, man unjustly puts it there, Gods making or causing one to do something, they will do it willingly.
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force, coercion, no choice, passive, unwilling, corpse dead, etc........

one is made to come is forces them as they were programmed like robots to do- FATALISM
 
civic said:
force, coercion, no choice, passive, unwilling, corpse dead, etc........

one is made to come is forces them as they were programmed like robots to do- FATALISM
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Force isnt in the equation, man unjustly puts it there, Gods making or causing one to do something, they will do it willingly.
 
brightfame52 said:
Its His Power sure, however the one He predetermined to do His will does it willing from their own accountable to God volition. When God predetermined and did harden the heart of king of sihon to forbid Israel so He could destroy him, the king wasnt forced, he did it willingly Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Even though God Almighty actively hardened his spirit, and MADE his heart obstinate, he will tell you, he wasnt forced
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Their will is controlled by God. That is force
 

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