Scripture tops ism's or at least it should. Unfortunately Calvinism exalts the system over scripture
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Who are you addressing?
Diserner
Well-known member
"Without me you can do nothing, unless Flowers says you can believe the Gospel without grace, than it's just fruit in context."
— No Bible Ever
"Without me you can do nothing."
Except.
Except.
Except.
Except the Scripture gives no exceptions.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Joe
Thats fine, you can disagree, but by nature we are as children of disobedience, governed by a contrary spirit, and walk according to the prince of this world and so on Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Thats fine, you can disagree, but by nature we are as children of disobedience, governed by a contrary spirit, and walk according to the prince of this world and so on Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Still ignoring the context which involves bearing fruit not believing the bible
John 15:5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
and as far as I know John wrote this
The passages you posted do not say we cannot decide differently. One can be an addict but decide not to be an addict and never be one again. There were times before being born from the Spirit that I did something and decided never to do again. This happens all the time. This is why we cannot fall back on, "the devil made me do it". We can and do exercise our will while unregenerate, even against the desires of the evil one.
God of His grace saves all who repent and believes in Jesus Christ His Son.
The very first message Jesus preached was repent. That same message is preached today.
Repent is the act of giving careful thought and changing one's mind. This is an act of the human will. God saves the person who repents and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus said to the unregenerate, one must count the cost of following Him. This is giving careful thought and making a wholehearted decision.
The reality is, mankind does have a will that God expects one to use to come to Him and forsake a life of evil. The Lord Himself lamented over the inhabitants of Jerusalem, "How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" And He wept over them.
Notice the Lord said "you were not willing". This is an act of the will to resist God's clear message. And He wept over their destruction for being unwilling. So if they were unwilling and Jesus wept over it, this means there were those who were willing and Jesus was joyful about it. The book of Acts is filled with the ones who were willing. And to this day, the ones who are willing are entering the Kingdom of God by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ.
So, human willingness is absolutely involved, and not only willingness but careful thought to how much they must be willing when coming to God through Christ; one must die to their old life and fully receive the new one from God by faith. Count the cost.
God Bless
Rockson
Well-known member
That then would mean God was working in their lives to believe but never wanting that goal to be achieved. That wouldn't be a double minded thing?
And all this talk by some that see there by God hardening some people's hearts so they wouldn't believe that means he doesn't want them saved AT ANY TIME of the future. We read in Acts 6:7
".... that many priest became obedient to the faith." The fact that God loves all sinners and wants them to repent still holds true.
civic
Well-known member
Another lie about the man- he affirms the SBC like millions of other believers do. You should be ashamed making up false statements about Leighton Flowers. You sound just like the calvinists in CARM who mock and lie about him.
Here is what He believes, affirms and denies.
Below is what we believe to be the essence of a “Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God’s Plan of Salvation.” We believe that most Southern Baptists, regardless of how they have described their personal understanding of the doctrine of salvation, will find the following statement consistent with what the Bible teaches and what Southern Baptists have generally believed about the nature of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
ARTICLES OF AFFIRMATION AND DENIAL
ARTICLE ONE: THE GOSPEL
We affirm that the Gospel is the good news that God has made a way of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ for any person. This is in keeping with God’s desire for every person to be saved.We deny that only a select few are capable of responding to the Gospel while the rest are predestined to an eternity in hell.
Genesis 3:15; Psalm 2:1-12; Ezekiel 18:23, 32; Luke 19.10; Luke 24:45-49; John 1:1-18, 3:16; Romans 1:1-6, 5:8; 8:34; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Galatians 4:4-7; Colossians 1:21-23; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-16; 2 Peter 3:9
ARTICLE TWO: THE SINFULNESS OF MAN
We affirm that, because of the fall of Adam, every person inherits a nature and environment inclined toward sin and that every person who is capable of moral action will sin. Each person’s sin alone brings the wrath of a holy God, broken fellowship with Him, ever-worsening selfishness and destructiveness, death, and condemnation to an eternity in hell.We deny that Adam’s sin resulted in the incapacitation of any person’s free will or rendered any person guilty (?) before he has personally sinned. While no sinner is remotely capable of achieving salvation through his own effort, we deny that any sinner is saved apart from a free response to the Holy Spirit’s drawing through the Gospel.
Genesis 3:15-24; 6:5; Deuteronomy 1:39; Isaiah 6:5, 7:15-16;53:6;Jeremiah 17:5,9, 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:19-20; Romans 1:18-32; 3:9-18, 5:12, 6:23; 7:9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 Corinthians 1:18-25; 6:9-10;15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27-28; Revelation 20:11-15
ARTICLE THREE: THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST
We affirm that the penal substitution of Christ is the only available and effective sacrifice for the sins of every person.We deny that this atonement results in salvation without a person’s free response of repentance and faith. We deny that God imposes or withholds this atonement without respect to an act of the person’s free will. We deny that Christ died only for the sins of those who will be saved.
Psalm 22:1-31; Isaiah 53:1-12; John 12:32, 14:6; Acts 10:39-43; Acts 16:30-32; Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Galatians 3:10-14; Philippians 2:5-11; Col. 1:13-20; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; Hebrews 9:12-15, 24-28; 10:1-18; I John 1:7; 2:2
ARTICLE FOUR: THE GRACE OF GOD
We affirm that grace is God’s generous decision to provide salvation for any person by taking all of the initiative in providing atonement, in freely offering the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, and in uniting the believer to Christ through the Holy Spirit by faith.We deny that grace negates the necessity of a free response of faith or that it cannot be resisted. We deny that the response of faith is in any way a meritorious work that earns salvation.
Ezra 9:8; Proverbs 3:34; Zechariah 12:10; Matthew 19:16-30, 23:37; Luke 10:1-12; Acts 15:11; 20:24; Romans 3:24, 27-28; 5:6, 8, 15-21; Galatians 1:6; 2:21; 5; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:2-9; Colossians 2:13-17; Hebrews 4:16; 9:28; 1 John 4:19
ARTICLE FIVE: THE REGENERATION OF THE SINNER
We affirm that any person who responds to the Gospel with repentance and faith is born again through the power of the Holy Spirit. He is a new creation in Christ and enters, at the moment he believes, into eternal life.We deny that any person is regenerated prior to or apart from hearing and responding to the Gospel.
Luke 15:24; John 3:3; 7:37-39; 10:10; 16:7-14; Acts 2:37-39; Romans 6:4-11; 10:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20; 6:15; Colossians 2:13; 1 Peter 3:18
ARTICLE SIX: THE ELECTION TO SALVATION
We affirm that, in reference to salvation, election speaks of God’s eternal, gracious, and certain plan in Christ to have a people who are His by repentance and faith.We deny that election means that, from eternity, God predestined certain people for salvation and others for condemnation.
Genesis 1:26-28; 12:1-3; Exodus 19:6;Jeremiah 31:31-33; Matthew 24:31; 25:34; John 6:70; 15:16; Romans 8:29-30, 33;9:6-8; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4-6; 2:11-22; 3:1-11; 4:4-13; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 7:9-10
ARTICLE SEVEN: THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
We affirm God’s eternal knowledge of and sovereignty over every person’s salvation or condemnation.We deny that God’s sovereignty and knowledge require Him to cause a person’s acceptance or rejection of faith in Christ.
Genesis 1:1; 6:5-8; 18:16-33; 22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; 1 Chronicles 29:10-20; 2 Chronicles 7:14; Joel 2:32; Psalm 23; 51:4; 139:1-6; Proverbs 15:3; John 6:44; Romans 11:3; Titus 3:3-7; James 1:13-15; Hebrews 11:6, 12:28; 1 Peter 1:17
ARTICLE EIGHT: THE FREE WILL OF MAN
We affirm that God, as an expression of His sovereignty, endows each person with actual free will (the ability to choose between two options), which must be exercised in accepting or rejecting God’s gracious call to salvation by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel.We deny that the decision of faith is an act of God rather than a response of the person. We deny that there is an “effectual call” for certain people that is different from a “general call” to any person who hears and understands the Gospel.
Genesis 1:26-28; Numbers 21:8-9; Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15; 1 Samuel 8:1-22; 2 Samuel 24:13-14; Esther 3:12-14; Matthew 7:13-14; 11:20-24; Mark 10:17-22; Luke 9:23-24; 13:34; 15:17-20; Romans 10:9-10; Titus 2:12; Revelation 22:17
ARTICLE NINE: THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER
We affirm that when a person responds in faith to the Gospel, God promises to complete the process of salvation in the believer into eternity. This process begins with justification, whereby the sinner is immediately acquitted of all sin and granted peace with God; continues in sanctification, whereby the saved are progressively conformed to the image of Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit; and concludes in glorification, whereby the saint enjoys life with Christ in heaven forever.We deny that this Holy Spirit-sealed relationship can ever be broken. We deny even the possibility of apostasy.
John 10:28-29; 14:1-4; 16:12-14; Philippians 1:6; Romans 3:21-26; 8:29,30; 35-39; 12:1-3; 2 Corinthians 4:17; Ephesians 1:13-14; Philippians 3:12; Colossians 1:21-22; 1 John 2:19; 3:2; 5:13-15; 2 Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 13:5; James 1:12; Jude 24-25
ARTICLE TEN: THE GREAT COMMISSION
We affirm that the Lord Jesus Christ commissioned His church to preach the good news of salvation to all people to the ends of the earth. We affirm that the proclamation of the Gospel is God’s means of bringing any person to salvation.We deny that salvation is possible outside of a faith response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Psalm 51:13; Proverbs 11:30; Isaiah 52:7; Matthew 28:19-20; John 14:6; Acts 1:8; 4:12; 10:42-43; Romans 1:16, 10:13-15; 1 Corinthians 1:17-21; Ephesians 3:7-9; 6:19-20; Philippians 1:12-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:8; 1 Timothy 2:5; 2 Timothy 4:1-5
Some when not able to refute the message attack the messenger
civic
Well-known member
yes unfortunately we still have to deal with that here but not as often as other places.
Tell me about it.
civic
Well-known member
I use to have to defend arminians when the calvinists use to misrepresent them when I was a calvinist myself and would quote Arminius to refute their false accusations. Its the same here with Leighton. In fact its worse with him.
brightfame52
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
So, does that mean you are not good with God giving man the earnest option by His grace to repent and turn to Him?
You’re being good with Eph should also incorporate being good that God expects man to respond to His will for them to be saved. This means man must act of his will to accept or reject,
I have given you plenty of truthful examples from the biblical record that God commands men to repent, to have a change of heart and believe in Jesus Christ. Denying that repentance is an act of human will is really a denial of the truth.
God Bless
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes, and none of it states man cannot decide to have a change of mind. That is read into the text.
Clearly, God expects man to listen and repent, have a change of mind and turn to Him upon hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anything less than this is unbiblical.
God Bless
brightfame52
Well-known member
It implies it, man cant change his disobedient nature. Thats why Jeremiah writes Jer 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Jesus as Saviour gives a change of mind Acts 5:31
1 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Repentance is the greek word :metanoia: change of mind, repentance
Now if you think man by his own freewill can stop being what he is by nature, and change his mind and become obedient, then congratulations, you have crowned man as his own saviour from sin.
Clearly scripture teaches man is capable of believing the gospel
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 5:45–46 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
God can then change his nature
