Diserner
Well-known member
excellent point
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
excellent point
brightfame52
Well-known member
@The Rogue Tomato @dizerner
"Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he (Jonah) called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them." (Jonah 3:4-5)
"The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands". <--This right here is repentance, even though they were evil and followed after the devil's guidance up unto this point. (Jonah 3:6-8)
"When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it." (Jonah 3:10)
The account of Jonah dispells any notion that man cannot repent, have a change of mind about doing evil.
Did God regenerate the Gentile Assyrians so they would believe and repent? There's not one mention of that happening anywhere in the bible.
So how did these wicked Assyrians who met the description of Romans 1:18-32 and Eph 2:2-3, who followed after the guidance-lies of the devil, once they heard God's message they believed and repented if they did not have the ability to do so?
God's message from Jonah illustrates many things. One is His desire for man to repent from believing the devil's lies and believe Him instead, thus avoiding the judgment of God.
Eph 2 does not state or even imply man cannot repent, even though we all at one time followed after the devil's lies. Nothing of the sort is in those passages. Eph 2 is where the Apostle Paul proclaims God's mercy towards us while we were in that sorrowful state because He loves us.
Jonah 3 dismantles the false doctrine that man does not have the ability within himself to repent and believe God when one hears God's message.
That is why we spread the Gospel of Christ. That hearing they can believe.
God Bless
Again, Eph 2 has zero to do with repentance. Jonah 3 with the notoriously wicked Gentile enemy of Israel smacks that down rather quickly. You are reading into the text.
"Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he (Jonah) called out, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them." (Jonah 3:4-5)
So far the people who obviously were following the prince of the power of the air heard God's message of what was going to happen to them and they believed God. They reacted by humbling themselves.
"The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands". <--This right here is repentance, even though they were evil and followed after the devil's guidance up unto this point. (Jonah 3:6-8)
The king heard God's message and believed it. He issues a decree for everyone, including their herds to be humbled before God. And they repented from their evil practices and from violence.
"When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it." (Jonah 3:10)
The account of Jonah dispells any notion that man cannot repent, have a change of mind about doing evil.
Did God regenerate the Gentile Assyrians so they would believe and repent? There's not one mention of that happening anywhere in the bible.
So how did these wicked Assyrians who met the description of Romans 1:18-32 and Eph 2:2-3, who followed after the guidance-lies of the devil, once they heard God's message they believed and repented if they did not have the ability to do so?
God's message from Jonah illustrates many things. One is His desire for man to repent from believing the devil's lies and believe Him instead, thus avoiding the judgment of God.
Eph 2 does not state or even imply man cannot repent, even though we all at one time followed after the devil's lies. Nothing of the sort is in those passages. Eph 2 is where the Apostle Paul proclaims God's mercy towards us while we were in that sorrowful state because He loves us.
Jonah 3 dismantles the false doctrine that man does not have the ability within himself to repent and believe God when one hears God's message.
That is why we spread the Gospel of Christ. That hearing they can believe.
God Bless
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man by nature is under the control of his evil nature of disobedience Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
You can repeat Eph out of context until you are blue in the face. It doesn't stop the reality from existing that man can decide to follow God upon hearing God's word.
You know the account of Jonah proves your dogma wrong; therefore, you cannot address it but only ignore it.
God Bless
Diserner
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit comes with the Word brother.
You see this all throughout Scripture, from Genesis one God SAID something and the words were not just there alone, the SPIRIT HOVERED.
You continue to see GOD'S SPIRIT accompanying his word ALL THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURE to the very end where the Spirit says "COME!"
No, stop denying the need for the grace of God, it's self-righteous and it's disgusting.
Words alone don't do anything, the letter kills, the flesh profits nothing.
Repent.
In times past says nothing at all about an inability to repent
Was God unaware of this disability
Revelation 2:21 (ESV) — 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
They are in disobedience.
This is unnecessary and fleshly. You obviously have no idea what I believe. Once again you are running on your own assumptions; and this has you making fleshly accusations against a fellow brother in Christ. I forgive you. I pray that you take your own advice.
Quite honestly, you are all over the map.
Let's just agree with God's Word that He sent Jonah to tell the Assyrian's in their capital city of Nineveh that their city would be overthrown in forty days. The inhabitants of Nineveh believed God and humbled themselves and repented of doing evil and violence. God saw it and relented disaster upon them.
That is the biblical record. No more to add and none to take away.
God's grace is found in Him and what He says and does. How that grace comes to us varies from one manner to another.
In the account of Jonah, God had pity on the city, "in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock".
God's grace was shown towards the people of Nineveh in that He sent a prophet to tell them of their demise.
- No mentioning of them being born again by the Spirit so they could understand, repent and believe.
- No mentioning of God opening their minds to understand so they could believe.
- Nothing recorded that God's message was a teaching of the Spirit, that they could not receive it being they were of the natural man
it is that simple and that true.
Do we need God's grace? Every minute of every day. And yet that does not free us from deciding to believe God's Word or reject Him; this is left up to us.
God Bless
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Willingly not determinately
Scripture shows
Luke 8:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 Those on the rocky soil are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and yet these do not have a firm root; they believe for a while, and in a time of temptation they fall away.
John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Man has the capability of understanding and believing
John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
2 Timothy 3:15 (ESV) — 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 10:14 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
civic
Well-known member
. God calls, moves first and man responds in faith. We see this demonstrated over and over again with Jesus in the gospels and with the Apostles in ActsReply to "An Article on free will" #1
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
Man has a will, but that will is not a free-will.
Since you started with the Old Testament, the next section addresses the matter.
continued to post #135
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
Man has a will, but that will is not a free-will.
Since you started with the Old Testament, the next section addresses the matter.
continued to post #135
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continued from post #134
The English translation of "freewill offering" is an inaccurate translation, and the below goes into an in-depth examination of the Hebrew.
First, "freewill offering" is in the Old Testament, so this is not the New Testament. There are differences.
Second, as God's chosen people, the Israelites had instruction about the "freewill offering" in the Old Covenant.
Third, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word נְדָבָ֖ה in the Hebrew of the Old Testament. This word נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) has a Strong's number of 5071.
DEFINITION: from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:-free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering) (this Strong's defintion obtained from BlueLetterBible.org 5071).
Fourth, the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled offering) has a root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
SO we find "impel" which defines as "to drive" and/or "to force" as the root of nedabah, not "freewill".
Fifth, Strong et al included a separate Aramaic word entry of נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) which means "be (or give) liberal(-ly)"
AND this Aramaic word corresponds to the root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
AND we find the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) occurs only in the Book of Ezra which is at least 400 years after the Exodus which means the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) is not contemporary with the Exodus, Biblically
SO the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) means a "generous offer", not a "freewill offer", but truly "offer freely", "offer abundantly", "liberally offer", "generous offering", or "gratuitous offering".
Sixth, a highly related Hebrew proper noun of נָדָב Strong's 5070 - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble) exists for the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071- nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
SO the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) includes the denotation of "generous" (plentiful, freely, abundant)
AND historically we find the account of Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron, Moses' brother, in Leviticus 10:1-7
SO we find that the meaning of "generous" is contemporary with the occurrence of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) in the timeframe of the Exodus (as in Exodus 28:1, Exodus 35:29, and Exodus 36:3-6), not "freewill", but truly "impelled generous offering".
Seventh, the concept of "willing" potentially could be adjunct with the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
YET the concept of "impel" eliminates the potential for "free" as in "unattached" thereby eliminating "freewill" from the definition of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
AND "impelled" integrates the concept of "forced"
SO if a "wiiling" heart is part of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
THEN God controls the willing heart (Proverbs 21:1, Ezra 6:22, Philippians 2:13).
Eighth, it would be terribly unwise to practice the lawlessness of insisting upon converting the word "freely" (plentiful, generous) into the word "freewill" (unattached will) with regard to the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) because that is adding to the Word of God
AND it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
Nineth, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word αφαίρεμα in the Greek of the Old Testament in the Septuagint. This word αφαίρεμα does not appear in the New Testament, so it does not have a Strong's number, but it has been assigned a number of "850.4" in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.
DEFINITION: That which is cut off as a choice part; a choice portion; a cut-away portion.
Tenth, it is written in the Old Testament "The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring [material] for all the work, which YHWH had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to YHWH" (Exodus 35:29).
AND there is a Hebrew word for "choose", but it is not here, so it does not state "who chose to bring", yet it does state "whose heart moved them to bring"
AND this offering is for material for the work as opposed to choosing toward God
AND this is the first occurrence of "freewill offering" in the NASB
AND the people brought abundant offerings for it is written "They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him freewill offerings every morning. And all the skillful men who were performing all the work of the sanctuary came, each from the work which he was performing, and they said to Moses, 'The people are bringing much more than enough for the construction work which the LORD commanded [us] to perform.' So Moses issued a command, and a proclamation was circulated throughout the camp, saying, 'Let no man or woman any longer perform work for the contributions of the sanctuary.' Thus the people were restrained from bringing [any more]" (Exodus 36:3-6)
SO it is clear that the synonyms נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew and αφαίρεμα in Greek denote a heartfelt gratuitous offering.
Eleventh, based upon Biblical usage neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":
Twelvth, based upon definitions, neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":
Fourteenth, based upon both Scriptural usage and definitions, both of these words translate to spontaneous heartfelt gratuitous premier portion offering:
The Septuagint uses the word αφαίρεμα which translates to "the choice portion" which references an offering.
The Brenton Septuagint Translation version of Exodus 35:29 reads as "And every man and woman whose mind inclined them to come in and do all the works as many as the Lord appointed them to do by Moses- they the children of Israel brought an offering to the Lord".
The Brenton Septuagint Translation version contains "an offering" with no mention of "freewill".
Freewill is not a part of the Hebrew word נדבה (Strong's 5071 - ndbh) of which the English Bible translators/linguists moved from "freely" (plentiful, generous, abundant) over the centuries into "freewill", so "freewill offering" is not found in the Old Testament, but "impelled generous offering" is found in the Old Testament, and this Scriptural explanation demonstrates this fact.
At the time of the Exodus, when a person who spoke the Hebrew language heard the Hebrew word נדבה (Strong's 5071 - ndbh), then that person thought of the concept "generous", not "free-will", but truly "impelled generous offering".
Since you continued with the New Testament, the next section addresses the matter.
continued to post #136
The English translation of "freewill offering" is an inaccurate translation, and the below goes into an in-depth examination of the Hebrew.
First, "freewill offering" is in the Old Testament, so this is not the New Testament. There are differences.
Second, as God's chosen people, the Israelites had instruction about the "freewill offering" in the Old Covenant.
Third, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word נְדָבָ֖ה in the Hebrew of the Old Testament. This word נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) has a Strong's number of 5071.
DEFINITION: from H5068; properly (abstractly) spontaneity, or (adjectively) spontaneous; also (concretely) a spontaneous or (by inference, in plural) abundant gift:-free(-will) offering, freely, plentiful, voluntary(-ily, offering), willing(-ly), offering) (this Strong's defintion obtained from BlueLetterBible.org 5071).
Fourth, the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled offering) has a root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
SO we find "impel" which defines as "to drive" and/or "to force" as the root of nedabah, not "freewill".
Fifth, Strong et al included a separate Aramaic word entry of נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) which means "be (or give) liberal(-ly)"
AND this Aramaic word corresponds to the root Hebrew word of נָדַב (Strong's 5068 - nadab - נדב - ndb - to incite, impel)
AND we find the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) occurs only in the Book of Ezra which is at least 400 years after the Exodus which means the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) is not contemporary with the Exodus, Biblically
SO the Aramaic word נְדַב (Strong's 5069 - nedab - נדב - ndb - to volunteer, offer freely) means a "generous offer", not a "freewill offer", but truly "offer freely", "offer abundantly", "liberally offer", "generous offering", or "gratuitous offering".
Sixth, a highly related Hebrew proper noun of נָדָב Strong's 5070 - Nadab - נדב - ndb - an Israelite name, generous, noble) exists for the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071- nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
SO the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) includes the denotation of "generous" (plentiful, freely, abundant)
AND historically we find the account of Nadab and Abihu the sons of Aaron, Moses' brother, in Leviticus 10:1-7
SO we find that the meaning of "generous" is contemporary with the occurrence of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) in the timeframe of the Exodus (as in Exodus 28:1, Exodus 35:29, and Exodus 36:3-6), not "freewill", but truly "impelled generous offering".
Seventh, the concept of "willing" potentially could be adjunct with the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
YET the concept of "impel" eliminates the potential for "free" as in "unattached" thereby eliminating "freewill" from the definition of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
AND "impelled" integrates the concept of "forced"
SO if a "wiiling" heart is part of the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering)
THEN God controls the willing heart (Proverbs 21:1, Ezra 6:22, Philippians 2:13).
Eighth, it would be terribly unwise to practice the lawlessness of insisting upon converting the word "freely" (plentiful, generous) into the word "freewill" (unattached will) with regard to the Hebrew word נְדָבָ֖ה (Strong's 5071 - nedabah - נדבה - ndbh - impelled generous offering) because that is adding to the Word of God
AND it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
Nineth, the definition behind "freewill offering" must be examined according the source word αφαίρεμα in the Greek of the Old Testament in the Septuagint. This word αφαίρεμα does not appear in the New Testament, so it does not have a Strong's number, but it has been assigned a number of "850.4" in the Apostolic Bible Polyglot.
DEFINITION: That which is cut off as a choice part; a choice portion; a cut-away portion.
Tenth, it is written in the Old Testament "The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring [material] for all the work, which YHWH had commanded through Moses to be done, brought a freewill offering to YHWH" (Exodus 35:29).
AND there is a Hebrew word for "choose", but it is not here, so it does not state "who chose to bring", yet it does state "whose heart moved them to bring"
AND this offering is for material for the work as opposed to choosing toward God
AND this is the first occurrence of "freewill offering" in the NASB
AND the people brought abundant offerings for it is written "They received from Moses all the contributions which the sons of Israel had brought to perform the work in the construction of the sanctuary. And they still [continued] bringing to him freewill offerings every morning. And all the skillful men who were performing all the work of the sanctuary came, each from the work which he was performing, and they said to Moses, 'The people are bringing much more than enough for the construction work which the LORD commanded [us] to perform.' So Moses issued a command, and a proclamation was circulated throughout the camp, saying, 'Let no man or woman any longer perform work for the contributions of the sanctuary.' Thus the people were restrained from bringing [any more]" (Exodus 36:3-6)
SO it is clear that the synonyms נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew and αφαίρεμα in Greek denote a heartfelt gratuitous offering.
Eleventh, based upon Biblical usage neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":
- נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
- αφαίρεμα in Greek
Twelvth, based upon definitions, neither of these words translate to "freewill" as in "freewill choice toward God":
- נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
- αφαίρεμα in Greek
Fourteenth, based upon both Scriptural usage and definitions, both of these words translate to spontaneous heartfelt gratuitous premier portion offering:
- נְדָבָ֖ה (nedabah) in Hebrew
- αφαίρεμα in Greek
The Septuagint uses the word αφαίρεμα which translates to "the choice portion" which references an offering.
The Brenton Septuagint Translation version of Exodus 35:29 reads as "And every man and woman whose mind inclined them to come in and do all the works as many as the Lord appointed them to do by Moses- they the children of Israel brought an offering to the Lord".
The Brenton Septuagint Translation version contains "an offering" with no mention of "freewill".
Freewill is not a part of the Hebrew word נדבה (Strong's 5071 - ndbh) of which the English Bible translators/linguists moved from "freely" (plentiful, generous, abundant) over the centuries into "freewill", so "freewill offering" is not found in the Old Testament, but "impelled generous offering" is found in the Old Testament, and this Scriptural explanation demonstrates this fact.
At the time of the Exodus, when a person who spoke the Hebrew language heard the Hebrew word נדבה (Strong's 5071 - ndbh), then that person thought of the concept "generous", not "free-will", but truly "impelled generous offering".
Since you continued with the New Testament, the next section addresses the matter.
continued to post #136
continued from post #135
Now that it is established that every reference for free-will that you provided in the Old Testament is inaccurate due to English translation error, let's examine the New Testament references that you provided as purported proof of man's free-will.
Acts 17:11-12 indicates that the Word is good unto Salvation (Romans 1:16). God caused the Bereans to search the scriptures because the first thing is the Bereans "received the Word" (Acts 17:11). The Light (John 1:4) pierced the darkness of the Bereans (John 1:5, Ephesians 5:13-14). The Bereans believed because of the Will of God, certainly not a purported free-will of man, but, in Truth (John 14:6), the belief in the Bereans was a blessed exclusive act of God for thus says the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). This is Christian teaching.
1 Corinthians 7:37 does not indicate an unconverted man can free-will choose Jesus unto salvation, and this passage does indicate man has a will, not free-will of which your claim adds the word "free" where it does not exist, because the Apostle wrote "authority over his own will" (1 Corinthians 7:37, NASB1995), and Paul expressed this "authority over his own will" in relation to other people, not specifically God, because neither action results in sin (marriage or no marriage).
Let's take a break from your purported free-will proofs.
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.
Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).
Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.
Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.
Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.
Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by the Word of God.
The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:
God saves us children of God from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory! Praise be to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Now, let's return to your purported free-will proofs.
1 Corinthians 9:17 indicates "of my own will", and, again, the only way for you to achieve free will therein is by you adding the word "free" where it does not exist!
2 Corinthians 8:3, 2 Corinthians 8:17, and 2 Corinthians 9:7 are a part of letters to believers in Christ, as are every New Testament citation you provided, so these are constrained to believers in Christ, and we believers in Christ use Scripture with Scripture; therefore, the giving "of their own accord" (2 Corinthians 8:3) is truly a Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) - for the same Apostle who wrote "of their own accord" is the same Apostle who wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13); furthermore, no mention of freewill occurs in the passages, so your heart must add the phrase freewill where it exists not.
Philemon 1:14 indicates that a Christian loving a brother is caused by God because "let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, see the phrase "love is from God" meaning God is the source of true love).
1 Peter 5:2 indicates a man must willingly with joy feed the flock of God the good Word, and, again, no mention of free-will occurs in the passages, so your heart must add the phrase free-will where it exists not.
Well, there you have it, every reference that you provided as support for a purported free will fails to indicate the existence of free will; on the other hand, we find bond will - always a will associated with a beings.
Now that it is established that every reference for free-will that you provided in the Old Testament is inaccurate due to English translation error, let's examine the New Testament references that you provided as purported proof of man's free-will.
Acts 17:11-12 indicates that the Word is good unto Salvation (Romans 1:16). God caused the Bereans to search the scriptures because the first thing is the Bereans "received the Word" (Acts 17:11). The Light (John 1:4) pierced the darkness of the Bereans (John 1:5, Ephesians 5:13-14). The Bereans believed because of the Will of God, certainly not a purported free-will of man, but, in Truth (John 14:6), the belief in the Bereans was a blessed exclusive act of God for thus says the Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). This is Christian teaching.
1 Corinthians 7:37 does not indicate an unconverted man can free-will choose Jesus unto salvation, and this passage does indicate man has a will, not free-will of which your claim adds the word "free" where it does not exist, because the Apostle wrote "authority over his own will" (1 Corinthians 7:37, NASB1995), and Paul expressed this "authority over his own will" in relation to other people, not specifically God, because neither action results in sin (marriage or no marriage).
Let's take a break from your purported free-will proofs.
The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.
Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).
Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.
Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.
Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.
Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by the Word of God.
The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:
- "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
- "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
- "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
God saves us children of God from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory! Praise be to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Now, let's return to your purported free-will proofs.
1 Corinthians 9:17 indicates "of my own will", and, again, the only way for you to achieve free will therein is by you adding the word "free" where it does not exist!
2 Corinthians 8:3, 2 Corinthians 8:17, and 2 Corinthians 9:7 are a part of letters to believers in Christ, as are every New Testament citation you provided, so these are constrained to believers in Christ, and we believers in Christ use Scripture with Scripture; therefore, the giving "of their own accord" (2 Corinthians 8:3) is truly a Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) - for the same Apostle who wrote "of their own accord" is the same Apostle who wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13); furthermore, no mention of freewill occurs in the passages, so your heart must add the phrase freewill where it exists not.
Philemon 1:14 indicates that a Christian loving a brother is caused by God because "let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7, see the phrase "love is from God" meaning God is the source of true love).
1 Peter 5:2 indicates a man must willingly with joy feed the flock of God the good Word, and, again, no mention of free-will occurs in the passages, so your heart must add the phrase free-will where it exists not.
Well, there you have it, every reference that you provided as support for a purported free will fails to indicate the existence of free will; on the other hand, we find bond will - always a will associated with a beings.
A professor of biblical languages disputes you
And ? Are you arguing freewill was lost as one passed from the old covenant to the new?
I do not see any force in this claim
And?
Instruction has nothing to do with the will to freely give
all in accord with free will
Dictionary
Data from Oxford Languages
free will
NOUN
- the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
SIMILAR:
volition
independence
self-determination
self-sufficiency
autonomy
spontaneity
freedom
liberty
voluntarily
willingly
What is driven
Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.
Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….
Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.
Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!
Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
their heart drives them - to me that speaks of free will
Apparently it does to Professor Wagner as well
Again synonymous to free will
Ezra 7:13I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:15and to bring the silver and gold, which the king and his advisers have voluntarily given to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem,
Ezra 7:16with all the silver and gold which you find in the entire province of Babylon, along with the voluntary offering of the people and of the priests, who offered willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem;
Still sounds like free will
What is the significance of being 400 years after the exodus
Bible Search for strongs:H5069
English Standard Version 4 results in 3 verses
Ezra 7:13
I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:15
and also to carry the silver and gold that the king and his counselors have freely offered to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem,
Ezra 7:16
with all the silver and gold that you shall find in the whole province of Babylonia, and with the freewill offerings of the people and the priests, vowed willingly for the house of their God that is in Jerusalem.
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 4:31 PM February 4, 2024.
Bible Search for strongs:H5069
King James Version 5 results in 3 verses
Ezra 7:13
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
Ezra 7:15
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellers have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem,
Ezra 7:16
And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 4:33 PM February 4, 2024.
Bible Search for strongs:H5069
New American Standard Bible 4 results in 3 verses
Ezra 7:13
I have issued a decree that any of the people of Israel and their priests and the Levites in my kingdom who are willing to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
Ezra 7:15
and to bring the silver and gold, which the king and his advisers have voluntarily given to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem,
Ezra 7:16
with all the silver and gold which you find in the entire province of Babylon, along with the voluntary offering of the people and of the priests, who offered willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem;
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 4:34 PM February 4, 2024
Why should I reject A professor of biblical languages, multiple translation and a dictionary listing of all that is synonymous with free will to believe your claim
I do not believe you have shown they are inaccurate. It appears to me, you have rejected words and terms synonymous with free will
Below is a search for freewill or "free will' in my top bibles in the Old Testament
English Standard Version
24 in 23 verses
17 in 17 verses
22 in 22 verses
26 in 25 verses
17 in 17 verses
There is no way I would reject all these translations based on your claims
You interpret it in isolation from its previous verse
John 6:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Jesus was answering in the manner they asked and informing them that what God requires is that they believe
Belief is man's responsibility
Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Paul did not state "nothing or wait on a gift of faith" he told them they were to believe
Er having authority over one own will is having a free will
so you are affirming men have a free will
Er you just confessed a self will is a free will
Are you a calvinist?
If so you believe men have a determined will not a self will
So Christians can never sin?
Were they sinning by their own will or the will of God?
here is a list of translations of Philemon 1:14 that speak of free will
(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(RASV)but without your consent I would do nothing; that your goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
Far too many for me to ignore
(UASV)but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by necessity but of your own free will.
You do realize that refers to Christ's choice of his apostles. Context does not support your claim
and the overall weight of the translations are against you as well
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man by nature is a servant of sin, slave to sin, his mind will heart and affections.
