An Article on free will

atpollard said:
John is describing TWO distinct groups (like Sheep and Goats, or Wheat and Tares). Each child is (and remains) a child of their father. Children of God were NEVER children of the devil (as wheat were never tares and sheep were never goats). Children of the devil will never become children of God (as tares can never become wheat and goats can never become sheep). Children of God were prisoners of the devil, but being enslaved does not make you a child … it makes you a slave until freed.
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If children of God were never children of the devil....
and were always children of "their father"....(either God or satan)...
Then why do we read the following:

Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


1. Are you saying that we could be SINNERS and still be children of God?

2. IF we were always children of God...
WHY did Jesus have to die for us??

I know I ask questions that you find impossible to answer...
but since you love Calvinism so much...you should at least attempt to support your belief system.
 
civic said:
No you are pitting them against each other which is not necessary and John expands on the teaching. All unbelievers ( which every believer was at one time ) were children of the devil and Paul calls these same ones children of wrath.

1 John 3:7-10
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8;The one who does what is sinful is of the devil,because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin,because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10;This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
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The above is for @atpollard.
But would like to add...


Great verse....
and look
It even states HOW we are children of God or children of satan:

Your verse:
1 John 3:7-10 (my paragraphs)
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray.
The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8;The one who does what is sinful is of the devil,because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin,because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
10;This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are:
Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.


It is what WE DO that makes us righteous and sons of God.
It is what WE DO that makes us children of satan.

No talk of predestination.
No talk of God decreeing any deeds.
It's up to US to DO and be righteous or not be righteous.

Free Will is all over the NT.
Our actions being of consequence is all over the NT.

IF our actions have a consequence....then they are NOT caused by God...
or He would be working against Himself.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes even though Gods elect were born enslaved by and under the power of the devil, the power of darkness, they never belonged to him, but to God, and because theyre Gods little children, Christ their elder Brother redeems them from the devils captivity.
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§So if we're enslaved to satan..
and doing HIS works,
and are under the power of darkness...

we still belong to God?

Yes. This is where incorrect theology will bring a person.
To believe UNBIBLICAL teachings.

1 John 3:8
8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.


So we could be making a practice of sinning....
and still be children of God?

John states that if we make a practice of sinning, we are of the devil.

Was John wrong?? (but YOU are right?)
 
GodsGrace said:
OR
Man has a part in accepting God's gift of salvation.
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Exactly.

With as result, real love, no fake love.

God loves us, He desires our love in return.

With John 3:16-17, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 as His desire.

GodsGrace said:
Yes. The question has never been answered.
And never will.
!
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While it's so simple.

But our Calvinist / Reformed friends are stuck on election and predestination which simply is the foreknowledge of God, instead of God making choices via an unknown formula nobody knows and nowhere is found in Scripture, plus a wrong understanding of John 6:44
 
ProDeo said:
Exactly.

With as result, real love, no fake love.

God loves us, He desires our love in return.

With John 3:16-17, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 as His desire.



While it's so simple.

But our Calvinist / Reformed friends are stuck on election and predestination which simply is the foreknowledge of God, instead of God making choices via an unknown formula nobody knows and nowhere is found in Scripture, plus a wrong understanding of John 6:44
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John 6:44 is twisted to mean something it is not saying...as are many other verses with the word PREDESTINED or ELECTION in the sentence.
There certainly is predestination and election...but never of individual persons.
Always of how or purpose...and election can be the nation of Israel or anyone that is saved....
but the HOW is of all-importance.

Also, the reformed/calvinist theology is formed around the basic idea that man is depraved -unable to seek God- so that requires that God do everything for him and voila' we have TULIP.

Since the depravity of man is brought to an extreme.....
ALL of theology becomes scewered and ends up making NO SENSE.....

There is no logic in Calvinism.
Only fatalism and the changing of the character of God.
 
GodsGrace said:
Selah,,,,you've been sounding very Calvinist lately....
so I have a question for you regarding the above statement....

You say that children of God will repent and God in His mercy will forgive.

1. You stated that we are NEVER children of satan.
So WHY would we have to repent??
Do you realize what REPENT means??

2. Why would God "in His mercy" have to forgive us?
IF we were NEVER children of satan...
WHAT is God forgiving us of?


One of our Calvinist friends reading along might want to reply to.
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@GodsGrace Have you never read …

1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV) 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Selah
 
Selah said:
@GodsGrace Have you never read …

1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV) 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Selah
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I'm sorry Selah....
But the above does NOT address the statements you've been making.

In fact,,,,the scripture you've posted proves that we WERE once children of satan.

Why else would we need forgiveness?


Here are the two questions I posted again...
which you did not answer.


1. You stated that we are NEVER children of satan.
So WHY would we have to repent??
Do you realize what REPENT means??

2. Why would God "in His mercy" have to forgive us?
IF we were NEVER children of satan...
WHAT is God forgiving us of?


IOW,,,if we were NEVER children of satan....
from what did Jesus redeem us?
WHY do we need redemption of we were never children of satan?
 
Selah said:
@GodsGrace Have you never read …

1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV) 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Selah
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I think these great words are spoken to believers.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
if you want a God who created evil. feel free.

Reality is God created us in his image, meaning we have free will to chose. and through he created the possibility of eveil happening
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I believe the Word of God "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these" (Isaiah 45:7), but you believe "God did not create evil" (proof post #9,397).

The attribute of man being created in the image according to the likeness of God

WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities

SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)

THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam

IN particular God willpowering purported "free will" into man, specifically a free will into man in the likeness of God's will, during the creation of Adam

THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God

BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)

THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God

COMPARITIVELY this point's basis conveys that Adam who was made in the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) could not use an Adam's will created by God inside Adam which is a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will) because God's will won't work against God so then Adams will could not work against God and since Adam disobeyed God, it is with certainty that the attribute of Adam's will was not made a duplicate of God's will (likeness of God's will).
  1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
  2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
  3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
  4. Scripture does not include the mention of God endowing Adam with free will.
  5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)

Adam was evil for Adam intended to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the moments before the tree entered Adam's mouth (Genesis 3:6).

You, @Eternally-Grateful, were created in the image of God with a self-will that serves you and glorifies you. See, your purported free-will glorifies yourself, for example, you believe you control your destiny by you choosing God.

I, who believe Jesus is the Christ, was created a new man in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) which means God controls my will (Philippians 2:13) for everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (1 John 5:1).

Every Christian is saved from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory, and we Christians know that we are impotent in the matter for our God tells us of His loving deliverance with “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).
 
Kermos said:
I believe the Word of God "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these" (Isaiah 45:7), but you believe "God did not create evil" (proof post #9,397).
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That is EXACTLY what is wrong with reading the KJV bible. The English language has drifted since 1611 when “evil” also meant “trouble”. It survives in lesser meanings of “evil” …

EVIL: something that is very bad and harmful (Cambridge Dictionary)

In Isaiah 45:7, God announces two pairs of opposites to drive home the conclusion that God does “all things” (the implication is that God does “A” and “B” and everything in between).
  • “Light” and “darkness”
  • “peace” and “evil”
… but “evil” (as trouble) WAS the opposite of peace, however the word “evil” in English now seldom has that connotation. So one must either learn the 1611 definitions and use the KJV or embrace the NKJV and read Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'
 
atpollard said:
That is EXACTLY what is wrong with reading the KJV bible. The English language has drifted since 1611 when “evil” also meant “trouble”. It survives in lesser meanings of “evil” …

EVIL: something that is very bad and harmful (Cambridge Dictionary)

In Isaiah 45:7, God announces two pairs of opposites to drive home the conclusion that God does “all things” (the implication is that God does “A” and “B” and everything in between).
  • “Light” and “darkness”
  • “peace” and “evil”
… but “evil” (as trouble) WAS the opposite of peace, however the word “evil” in English now seldom has that connotation. So one must either learn the 1611 definitions and use the KJV or embrace the NKJV and read Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'
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BINGO !!!!!
 
GodsGrace said:
If children of God were never children of the devil....
and were always children of "their father"....(either God or satan)...
Then why do we read the following:

Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


1. Are you saying that we could be SINNERS and still be children of God?

2. IF we were always children of God...
WHY did Jesus have to die for us??

I know I ask questions that you find impossible to answer...
but since you love Calvinism so much...you should at least attempt to support your belief system.
Click to expand...
My condolences that you cannot understand the difference between a slave and a child.
Perhaps God will open your eyes and ears to grant you understanding.

In general, I do not respond to your posts because you are on “ignore” and I do not see them, not because I cannot answer your questions. I placed you on ignore because experience has shown that you do not listen to any of my answers, so they (like this post) are all wasted time and effort.
 
ProDeo said:
But our Calvinist / Reformed friends are stuck on election and predestination which simply is the foreknowledge of God,
Click to expand...
Not according to God …

Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

ProDeo said:
instead of God making choices via an unknown formula nobody knows and nowhere is found in Scripture,
Click to expand...
Not according to God …

Ephesians 1:3-14 [NKJV] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

ProDeo said:
plus a wrong understanding of John 6:44
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John 6:44 [NKJV] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

When I read “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”, I understand that to mean that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father draws them to Jesus.

When I read “and I will raise him up at the last day.”, I understand that to be a promise that the “him” that the Father drew to Jesus will be raised up to eternal life at the last day.

So if I am accused of believing that Jesus spoke the truth and “said what he meant and meant what he said”, then I am guilty as charged. However, I strongly disagree that it is a “wrong understanding”.
 
ProDeo said:
Correct, by His foreknowledge He knows the names in the book of life, your name, my name, even before we were born. And yet He wants it played out, we running the race. A good question would be, if He knows all the outcome of every soul born, knows all the names in the book of life, then why does God said -

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

Estimated +100 billions are born since the Flood, why did God want that if He knew every outcome on beforehand ?
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Huh ? I cant make nothing out of this
 
civic said:
Slave implied ownership hence unbelievers are by default children of the devil until converted and become children of God.

Next fallacy
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It may imply legal ownership, but not children, and Christs death for them released the children from the devils ownership. See Christ redeemed the children of God as their kinsman Redeemer. Now is He the Kinsman of the devil and his children ?
 
brightfame52 said:
It may imply legal ownership, but not children, and Christs death for them released the children from the devils ownership. See Christ redeemed the children of God as their kinsman Redeemer. Now is He the Kinsman of the devil and his children ?
Click to expand...
John said they are children of the devil.

next fallacy
 

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