An Article on free will

[GodsGrace]

Never were children of the devil

So we're born already saved.
So why were we saved while we were still sinners?
Are sinners saved?

Romans 5:8-9
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

 

[ProDeo]

ProDeo said : Predestination is about God's foreknowledge, why is that so hard to understand ?

... according to the good pleasure of His will - Ephesians 1:4
... according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself - Ephesians 1:9
... according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will - Ephesians 1:11

That is God's foreknowledge and it is NOT about God knowing what we will do before we do it, it is about God knowing what HE will do according to His "purpose", "good pleasure", and "will" ... all "in Himself", not based on our actions.

Do you really believe that God does not know your outcome (lost or saved) before you were born?

Note, the topic at hand is : Predestination = God's foreknowledge

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

[atpollard]

It didn't fail all men are drawn but not all come to faith and repentance.

In what sense of the word "draw" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?

[Even granting a 100% resistible draw and Libertine Free Will to reject Jesus Christ and the Gospel - for this discussion.]

 

[GodsGrace]

In what sense of the word "draw" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?

[Even granting a 100% resistible draw and Libertine Free Will to reject Jesus Christ and the Gospel - for this discussion.]

ALL men are drawn to God.
Jesus is God. After Jesus He will draw all men....even, yes, all types and nationalities because He commissioned the Apostles to go into all nations---world---to proclaim the gospel.

We now see a living God that is visible and has been seen by us and has spoken to us.

But God has ALWAYS made Himself be known to humanity.

Romans 1 states this.
Otherwise,,,,what could John 12:32 possibly mean?
Were the OT saints saved?
They were saved through faith, just as we are.
They didn't SEE God...they only knew about Him.
He revealed Himself to the Hebrews in a special way...
but He revealed Himself to ALL people all over the world from the beginning
of time.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


God is a just God and has given to every person the opportunity to save himself.
Why? So that at the judgment each man will have no excuse.....
and the judgment will be just.

 

[atpollard]

If a person is not of God...
to whom does that person belong?

Scripture is silent on "BELONG" Here are the NT verses containing ...

"belong":

• [Mar 9:41 NKJV] 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
• [Act 27:23 NKJV] 23 "For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
• [1Pe 4:11 NKJV] 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
• [Rev 19:1 NKJV] 1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power [belong] to the Lord our God!

"belongs":

• [Heb 5:14 NKJV] 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
• [Heb 7:13 NKJV] 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
• [Rev 7:10 NKJV] 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

"belonged":

• [Luk 23:7 NKJV] 7 And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

So you are asking me to state what scripture does not state.
For my opinion, they BELONG to "sin", to which they are a slave.

Is there a neutral state?

Romans 6:16 states that we are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.

This is my understanding of salvation economy.

Not a "neutral" state, but THREE states.

1. Children of God (saved by and IN Christ)
2. "fools" (rejecting God's salvation and seeking God on man's terms) ... "Did we not"/"I never knew you".
3. Children of Satan (Those at the end of Romans 1 who have not merely rejected God, but embraced evil) ... blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.

The first state is saved. The third state will never be saved, they have decided. The second state has yet to land on one side or the other, but is in that state described in Ephesians 2:1-3 shared by both:

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NKJV]
And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Children of "wrath" (punishment) ... walking in (and slaves to) sin.

PS Not sure which "theory" of mine you're alluding to.
I didn't go back and check...

Your theory that we could have a conversation and I was wrong in claiming that you would ignore what I actually said.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is silent on "BELONG" Here are the NT verses containing ...

"belong":

• [Mar 9:41 NKJV] 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
• [Act 27:23 NKJV] 23 "For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
• [1Pe 4:11 NKJV] 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
• [Rev 19:1 NKJV] 1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power [belong] to the Lord our God!

"belongs":

• [Heb 5:14 NKJV] 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
• [Heb 7:13 NKJV] 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
• [Rev 7:10 NKJV] 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

"belonged":

• [Luk 23:7 NKJV] 7 And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

So you are asking me to state what scripture does not state.
For my opinion, they BELONG to "sin", to which they are a slave.


Not a "neutral" state, but THREE states.

1. Children of God (saved by and IN Christ)
2. "fools" (rejecting God's salvation and seeking God on man's terms) ... "Did we not"/"I never knew you".
3. Children of Satan (Those at the end of Romans 1 who have not merely rejected God, but embraced evil) ... blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.

The first state is saved. The third state will never be saved, they have decided. The second state has yet to land on one side or the other, but is in that state described in Ephesians 2:1-3 shared by both:

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NKJV]
And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Children of "wrath" (punishment) ... walking in (and slaves to) sin.


Your theory that we could have a conversation and I was wrong in claiming that you would ignore what I actually said.

I always have listened to what you've said.
You sound snarky at times and it doesn't bring out the best in me.
The problem is that I don't agree with you,,,NOT that I don't listen.
Just quick, it sounds like you're creating a 3rd type of salvation level....
but must go for dinner.
Later.

 

[atpollard]

ALL men are drawn to God.
Jesus is God. After Jesus He will draw all men....even, yes, all types and nationalities because He commissioned the Apostles to go into all nations---world---to proclaim the gospel.

We now see a living God that is visible and has been seen by us and has spoken to us.

But God has ALWAYS made Himself be known to humanity.

Romans 1 states this.
Otherwise,,,,what could John 12:32 possibly mean?
Were the OT saints saved?
They were saved through faith, just as we are.
They didn't SEE God...they only knew about Him.
He revealed Himself to the Hebrews in a special way...
but He revealed Himself to ALL people all over the world from the beginning
of time.

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


God is a just God and has given to every person the opportunity to save himself.
Why? So that at the judgment each man will have no excuse.....
and the judgment will be just.

How very impassioned.
Just for the record, John 12:32 actually states:

[NKJV] "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

Those words were spoken by Jesus, so "myself" is Jesus the Christ and not just "God" in general.
Unless all 4 gospels lied, Jesus Christ WAS (in fact) lifted up prior to AD 40.
Itzcoatl died in 1440, so Jesus was "lifted up" 1400 years before Itzcoatl died.
The Gospel (news of Jesus) ... as in [Romans 10:13-15] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" ... did not reach America until after the 1490's (with Columbus).

So your very impassioned post did not address the actual question:

In what sense of the word "draw" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?

 

[atpollard]

Do you really believe that God does not know your outcome (lost or saved) before you were born?

God knows all things ... it goes with the Job Description of being GOD.
However, there is a difference between

• a God sitting in a lawn chair waiting for me to make a move because He has memorized every possible move that I can make and prepared a plan to respond to whatever I decide
• a God that is conducting an orchestra to play a symphony that only He has determined and we merely play the musis that He causes to appear before us.

Both are "predestined" and both are "foreknowledge", but one is "a god" and the other is The God".

Note, the topic at hand is : Predestination = God's foreknowledge

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8 goes on to beat the drum of HE ... HE ... HE ... HE ... emphasizing just who is the "first cause" of all things! Acting rather than reacting. That was the point I needed to make.

 

[ProDeo]

Since you call God's love your "fake love", then you are left with your lust being your motivation to force yourself upon God by your way of free-will choosing God, and James had a thing or two to say about lust. Behold, the difference between human lust and divine love.

Hi Kermos,

I basically have you on ignore but allow me to only respond on the above.

I did not say God's love is fake love, how dare you.

If God created us as robots (without a will of its own) to love Him, how is that real love?

That is what I said, please don't twist my words.

I am a programmer, I can write an .exe in one minute that puts the following on your screen :

I love you ProDeo.

or

I love you Kermos.

How is that real love?

Here is the code, compile and run it.

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
printf("I love you Kermos"); getch();
return 0;
}

 

[brightfame52]

@ProDeo

If God created us as robots (without a will of its own) to love Him, how is that real love?

Man by nature hates the True God. In order for a person to love God God has to circumcise their heart which is another way of saying the New Birth. Deut 30:6

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

By nature we are haters of God Rom 1:29-30

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God knows all things ... it goes with the Job Description of being GOD.
However, there is a difference between

• a God sitting in a lawn chair waiting for me to make a move because He has memorized every possible move that I can make and prepared a plan to respond to whatever I decide
• a God that is conducting an orchestra to play a symphony that only He has determined and we merely play the musis that He causes to appear before us.

Both are "predestined" and both are "foreknowledge", but one is "a god" and the other is The God".



Romans 8 goes on to beat the drum of HE ... HE ... HE ... HE ... emphasizing just who is the "first cause" of all things! Acting rather than reacting. That was the point I needed to make.

or how about God knew what was going to happen already. so he was not suprised when it did. and he keeps proving how omniscient he really is

 

[atpollard]

I did not say God's love is fake love, how dare you.

If God created us as robots (without a will of its own) to love Him, how is that real love?

That is what I said, please don't twist my words.

Communication is hard enough without deliberate misrepresentation.
Assume the best intentions of your opponent (a simple misunderstanding) for as long as you can and let them say what they mean without putting words in their mouth.

@ProDeo
I would describe it as "all God's children are born with a congenital heart defect that renders them incapable of LOVE."
That is why the FATHER employs the HOLY SPIRIT, like a surgeon, to correct this defect with a "heart transplant" (stone for flesh).
God's children are then empowered (capable, able to) to LOVE ... both to receive it and to give it.

Good soil prepared for the seed, as another analogy put it ... not hard, not stony, not choked with weeds ... a tender heart ready to be touched and to respond to His touch.

 

[GodsGrace]

How very impassioned.
Just for the record, John 12:32 actually states:

[NKJV] "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

Actually, John 12:32 states "Will draw all MEN to myself".

The Greek says WILL ALL DRAW TO MYSELF.
Draw what? If it's MEN or PEOPLES makes no difference.
It means the same.

However, MEN is the proper translation.
The word MEN or PEOPLE does not change what Jesus stated.
He stated that He would draw ALL to Himself.
All what?
Men of course. He came to save men.

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Berean Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

New King James Version
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

New American Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

NASB 1995
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NASB 1977
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Legacy Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Amplified Bible
And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].”

Christian Standard Bible
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Contemporary English Version
If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me."

English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."

Good News Translation
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me." (

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

New Heart English Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to myself."

Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

Smith's Literal Translation
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And when I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to myself.”

New American Bible
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

New Revised Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw every man to me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Godbey New Testament
And if I may be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men towards me.

Haweis New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Mace New Testament
as for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

Worrell New Testament
and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Worsley New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, shall draw all men unto me.

Those words were spoken by Jesus, so "myself" is Jesus the Christ and not just "God" in general.

Is Jesus the Christ not God?
WHERE did I speak of God in general?
You don't agree with Romans 1:18-20?
You cannot agree...but I posted what it states.
God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to mankind.

This is why NO person will have an excuse at judement time.

Unless all 4 gospels lied, Jesus Christ WAS (in fact) lifted up prior to AD 40.

Jesus' sacrifice has no time.
Jesus died in Jerusalem in about 28-30 AD.....
but His sacrifice applied to ALL PEOPLE of ALL TIME.

Itzcoatl died in 1440, so Jesus was "lifted up" 1400 years before Itzcoatl died.

Your above statement does not seem pertinent to this conversation.
I don't really believe it's important as to when this itzcaotl died.
I'm speaking about Christian theology....not Itzcoatl.

The Gospel (news of Jesus) ... as in [Romans 10:13-15] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" ... did not reach America until after the 1490's (with Columbus).

So your very impassioned post did not address the actual question:

In what sense of the word "draw" was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus?

So you're saying that if someone does not HEAR the gospel message they cannot be saved?
So you believe that everyone before Jesus' sacrifice was lost?


Why not forget about whether or not I'm impassioned and reply to
Romans 1:18-20 instead.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


The following is also of help:


Romans 2:14-
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Men have always known about God......
Men have always been judged by God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is silent on "BELONG" Here are the NT verses containing ...

"belong":

• [Mar 9:41 NKJV] 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
• [Act 27:23 NKJV] 23 "For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve,
• [1Pe 4:11 NKJV] 11 If anyone speaks, [let him speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
• [Rev 19:1 NKJV] 1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power [belong] to the Lord our God!

"belongs":

• [Heb 5:14 NKJV] 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, [that is], those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
• [Heb 7:13 NKJV] 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
• [Rev 7:10 NKJV] 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

"belonged":

• [Luk 23:7 NKJV] 7 And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod's jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time.

So you are asking me to state what scripture does not state.
For my opinion, they BELONG to "sin", to which they are a slave.

Jesus stated that some are of the devil....the devil YOUR FATHER.
John 8:44

Does this mean that Jesus did not mean what He said?
Of course they belong to sin...
they are a slave to sin.
These are those that are not saved.
Those that are not saved are following the evil one.

John taught:

1 John 3:10
10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

John explained that those that do not practice righteousness are childen of the devil.

Not a "neutral" state, but THREE states.

1. Children of God (saved by and IN Christ)
2. "fools" (rejecting God's salvation and seeking God on man's terms) ... "Did we not"/"I never knew you".
3. Children of Satan (Those at the end of Romans 1 who have not merely rejected God, but embraced evil) ... blasphemers of the Holy Spirit.

You agree that there are children of satan...
so why am I asking you to post what scripture does not teach?

Fools are lost.
There are only 2 categories.
A person is saved or he is not saved.
We are children of God or we are children of satan.

You state that fools reject God's salvation.
Correct...so they're lost.

The first state is saved. The third state will never be saved, they have decided. The second state has yet to land on one side or the other, but is in that state described in Ephesians 2:1-3 shared by both:

Until they "land"...they are lost.
No 3rd category or level of salvation.

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NKJV]
And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Children of "wrath" (punishment) ... walking in (and slaves to) sin.

Agreed.

Your theory that we could have a conversation and I was wrong in claiming that you would ignore what I actually said.

I never ignore what anyone posts to me.

 

[atpollard]

Actually, John 12:32 states "Will draw all MEN to myself".

The Greek says WILL ALL DRAW TO MYSELF.
Draw what? If it's MEN or PEOPLES makes no difference.
It means the same.

However, MEN is the proper translation.
The word MEN or PEOPLE does not change what Jesus stated.
He stated that He would draw ALL to Himself.
All what?
Men of course. He came to save men.

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Berean Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

New King James Version
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

New American Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

NASB 1995
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NASB 1977
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Legacy Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Amplified Bible
And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].”

Christian Standard Bible
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Contemporary English Version
If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me."

English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."

Good News Translation
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me." (

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

New Heart English Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to myself."

Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

Smith's Literal Translation
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And when I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to myself.”

New American Bible
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

New Revised Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw every man to me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Godbey New Testament
And if I may be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men towards me.

Haweis New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Mace New Testament
as for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

Worrell New Testament
and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Worsley New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, shall draw all men unto me.

So much effort to make a point, and I am not sure what point you are making. I quoted NKJV to avoid archaic language of KJV while attempting as close as possible to a translation where people would NOT argue over the translation.

My only point was the one I made … “myself” in John 12:32 was “Jesus”, so the claim in John 12:32 is that “all” would be drawn to “Jesus”.

By arguing for [men] to be inserted by the translators instead of [people], are you attempting to make a point that “only men and not women” will be drawn? That did not seem to be your point, so I have no idea why you made such a big deal over [people] vs [men]. It felt like you just wanted to CORRECT me on something that was nothing.

Perhaps you could clarify what point you were trying to make, because I did not follow it.

Is Jesus the Christ not God?
WHERE did I speak of God in general?
You don't agree with Romans 1:18-20?
You cannot agree...but I posted what it states.
God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to mankind.

Romans 1:18-20 speaks of a general knowledge of “a god” … that He exists … and limited data on His eternal attributes. That is what Romans 1 says. That is not the same as knowledge of Jesus lifted up (crucified) to draw “all” to Jesus (as John 12:32 speaks of).

So the knowledge that there is an eternal God and you are worshiping a man-made idol is enough knowledge to condemn and earn the anger of God, but it is not enough knowledge to draw one to the Crucified and Resurrected Jesus Christ as their savior. Romans 1 does not fulfill John 12.

This is why NO person will have an excuse at judement time.

Jesus' sacrifice has no time.
Jesus died in Jerusalem in about 28-30 AD.....
but His sacrifice applied to ALL PEOPLE of ALL TIME.

Your above statement does not seem pertinent to this conversation.
I don't really believe it's important as to when this itzcaotl died.
I'm speaking about Christian theology....not Itzcoatl.

The argument has been made by others (not by me) that John 12:32 is a claim by Jesus that after his crucifixion (he is lifted up), that every person without exception will be drawn to Jesus. This is offered to refute Jesus’ clear statement in John 6:44 that “no one can come to him unless drawn by the Father” … by arguing that “everyone without exception” is drawn.

Accepting John 12:32 as teaching that every person without exception will be (is) drawn to Jesus after his crucifixion … to accept or reject the salvation Jesus offers … I want to know how Itzcoatl (a person born 1400 years after Jesus was crucified) was drawn to Jesus to make his salvation choice?

Why is it such a hard question?
Is EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION drawn to Jesus or not?
Is Itzcoatl someone, and part of everyone?
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?

So you're saying that if someone does not HEAR the gospel message they cannot be saved?
So you believe that everyone before Jesus' sacrifice was lost?

I am saying nothing. I quoted the Apostle Paul and he said what he said.
Feel free to interpret it any way you want.

All I am saying is that Itzcoatl died before the “beautiful feet” reached the Americas.

Why not forget about whether or not I'm impassioned and reply to
Romans 1:18-20 instead.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Sure, I agree with Romans 1.
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?

The following is also of help:
Romans 2:14-
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I agree. I also believe …
Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
So God is free to show mercy on anyone that He pleases (God certainly does not need my permission).
However, the question from John 12:32 remains (unanswered):
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?

Men have always known about God......
Men have always been judged by God.

Men have NOT always known about and been drawn to Jesus. That is the issue that impacts correctly understanding John 12:32.

 

[atpollard]

You agree that there are children of satan...
so why am I asking you to post what scripture does not teach?

You are arguing and attempting to get me to affirm that everyone that is not saved is a child of the devil.

Scripture does not say that. Think of the vast crowd saved in Acts 2. 48 hours before Pentecost and Peter’s speech, were they sinners? YES.
Were they Children of Satan? NO.

Not all who are slaves to sin are children of the devil. Show me scripture that teaches otherwise and I will change my mind. Some people are children of the devil. Some people are just “children of wrath” (as Ephesians 2 calls it). God may save a “child of wrath”, as Ephesians 2 describes in detail, but God does not save a child of Satan (as Judas illustrated).

 

[GodsGrace]

So much effort to make a point, and I am not sure what point you are making. I quoted NKJV to avoid archaic language of KJV while attempting as close as possible to a translation where people would NOT argue over the translation.

I'm sorry A....I believe that YOU brought up the word MEN.
I stated that whether it's MEN or PEOPLE it makes no difference to what John 12:32 means.

My only point was the one I made … “myself” in John 12:32 was “Jesus”, so the claim in John 12:32 is that “all” would be drawn to “Jesus”.

By arguing for [men] to be inserted by the translators instead of [people], are you attempting to make a point that “only men and not women” will be drawn? That did not seem to be your point, so I have no idea why you made such a big deal over [people] vs [men]. It felt like you just wanted to CORRECT me on something that was nothing.

I said whether it said MEN or PEOPLE made no difference.
I don't even like discussing words.
We seem to have enough problems between we Christians to not also have to discuss words.

Perhaps you could clarify what point you were trying to make, because I did not follow it.


Romans 1:18-20 speaks of a general knowledge of “a god” … that He exists … and limited data on His eternal attributes. That is what Romans 1 says. That is not the same as knowledge of Jesus lifted up (crucified) to draw “all” to Jesus (as John 12:32 speaks of).

OK I'll try again....
God always existed...unseen but He still made Himself be known by mankind. He always has revealed Himself in one way or other. Some persons look up at the stars and instinctively know that something greater than them made them. Some people wonder how the universe came into existance. They know there's a superior being to themselves...that would be God.

Jesus is God. Now God has a face and we can see Him and He is real to more persons and they can know about Him and learn about Him and choose to obey Him or not,,,believe in Him or not.

Jesus said that if He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself.
How does this happen? With love. People love Jesus because of the sacrifice He made to atone for their sins.
This is like the difference between the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New Covenant.
God must still be believed to exist. (Hebrews 10). He must still be obeyed. (John 3)
But now we can SEE Jesus and have a solid example of who God is and we know whom we are trusting in
a sense that we humans can better understand.

In the OC the Holy Spirit still existed but He did not indwell man.
In the NC the Holy Spirit indwells man and he is empowered in a way that did not exist in the OC.
(speaking generally of course).

So Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself...Jews and Gentiles.
By revelation.

For this reason He sent the Apostles on the Great Commission...so that His name can be known by all the world...at least those who can hear about Him.

So the knowledge that there is an eternal God and you are worshiping a man-made idol is enough knowledge to condemn and earn the anger of God, but it is not enough knowledge to draw one to the Crucified and Resurrected Jesus Christ as their savior. Romans 1 does not fulfill John 12.

Are you saying no one was saved before Jesus?
I've already asked this and you haven't replied.

I don't understand YOUR point.
Jesus was ALWAYS the Savior.
From the beginning of time.
Jesus died for ALL MEN, for all sins, past, present and future.

I keep hearing from the reformed/calvinists that there are billions of persons that have never heard of Jesus and so are lost.
Romans 1 rejects this statement.

Jesus is the visible God...but God ALWAYS existed and His rules always existed.
I also posted Romans 2.....man will be judged by his conscience in the absence of the word.

The argument has been made by others (not by me) that John 12:32 is a claim by Jesus that after his crucifixion (he is lifted up), that every person without exception will be drawn to Jesus. This is offered to refute Jesus’ clear statement in John 6:44 that “no one can come to him unless drawn by the Father” … by arguing that “everyone without exception” is drawn.

God has ALWAYS drawn man to Himself.
When a person comes to believe in God...Father "gives" that person to Jesus for salvation.
It's Jesus that is the savior...
at any time in history.
It's Jesus that saves.


John 6:44 The Father draws all men....Romans 1
John 12:32 Jesus draws all men.

Now YOU believe John 6:44 means that God only draws those that will be saved.
But IF that is what DRAW means...that the Father purposefully draws (drags) persons to Himself...

then yes...
John 12:32 would be teacing universalsim and we know that this is not biblical.

So DRAW must mean something else.
It means to ATTRACT, in both John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Accepting John 12:32 as teaching that every person without exception will be (is) drawn to Jesus after his crucifixion … to accept or reject the salvation Jesus offers … I want to know how Itzcoatl (a person born 1400 years after Jesus was crucified) was drawn to Jesus to make his salvation choice?

Why is it such a hard question?
Is EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION drawn to Jesus or not?
Is Itzcoatl someone, and part of everyone?
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?

This Itz person did not know Jesus.
But he still could have known about God.
Is Jesus God or not?

I and the Father are One.
If a person believes in Father, he also believes in the Son, and V V.
Jesus stated this.

John 14:11
11“Believe me: I am in my Father and my Father is in me.

I am saying nothing. I quoted the Apostle Paul and he said what he said.
Feel free to interpret it any way you want.

All I am saying is that Itzcoatl died before the “beautiful feet” reached the Americas.


Sure, I agree with Romans 1.
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?


I agree. I also believe …
Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
So God is free to show mercy on anyone that He pleases (God certainly does not need my permission).
However, the question from John 12:32 remains (unanswered):
Was Itzcoatl drawn to Jesus? How?


Men have NOT always known about and been drawn to Jesus. That is the issue that impacts correctly understanding John 12:32.

Jesus makes God real in the eyes of men that observe Him (Jesus).

Men have always known about God.

We either believe the NT or we don't.
If it states that Jesus will draw all men to Himself, then it must be true.
Otherwise, why read the NT?

If you can reconcile John 6:44 with John 12:32...
in a different way...please do so.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are arguing and attempting to get me to affirm that everyone that is not saved is a child of the devil.

Scripture does not say that. Think of the vast crowd saved in Acts 2. 48 hours before Pentecost and Peter’s speech, were they sinners? YES.
Were they Children of Satan? NO.

Not all who are slaves to sin are children of the devil. Show me scripture that teaches otherwise and I will change my mind. Some people are children of the devil. Some people are just “children of wrath” (as Ephesians 2 calls it). God may save a “child of wrath”, as Ephesians 2 describes in detail, but God does not save a child of Satan (as Judas illustrated).

You certainly don't have to change your mind on my account.
I'm not here to change your mind.

I'm here to discuss scripture.
You're fortunate and probably attend a nice church that helps you with your faith.
I have no such good fortune.
All I have is God, His word, and a simple understanding of what He wants from us.

As I've already stated...
I posted scripture...you don't have to accept what is written in the NT.

Children of wrath are NOT children of God.

As previously stated...you're creating a 3 tier system of salvation.
There are only 2 tiers....
those that are saved and those that are not.

Those that are saved are of God......children of God.
Those that are not saved are of satan...children of satan.

There is only God and satan.
A person is either OF God or OF satan.

The NT teaches this...not me...and I provided scripture to support my position.


1 John 3:10
10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice
righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


John 8:44
44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.


Acts 13:10
10And said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness,,,,


Matthew 13:38
38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

 

[atpollard]

You certainly don't have to change your mind on my account.
I'm not here to change your mind.

I'm here to discuss scripture.
You're fortunate and probably attend a nice church that helps you with your faith.
I have no such good fortune.
All I have is God, His word, and a simple understanding of what He wants from us.

As I've already stated...
I posted scripture...you don't have to accept what is written in the NT.

Children of wrath are NOT children of God.

As previously stated...you're creating a 3 tier system of salvation.
There are only 2 tiers....
those that are saved and those that are not.

Those that are saved are of God......children of God.
Those that are not saved are of satan...children of satan.

There is only God and satan.
A person is either OF God or OF satan.

The NT teaches this...not me...and I provided scripture to support my position.


1 John 3:10
10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice
righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


John 8:44
44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.


Acts 13:10
10And said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness,,,,


Matthew 13:38
38The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

Ok, we will need to agree to disagree.

• Romans 1 does not mean that people are drawn to Jesus as John 12:32 claims without ever even hearing about him.
• Jesus saves “sinners” and not Children of the Devil.

There is nothing to be gained by arguing this further.

 

[synergy]

Ok, we will need to agree to disagree.

• Romans 1 does not mean that people are drawn to Jesus as John 12:32 claims without ever even hearing about him.

Jesus revealed that the Holy Spirit will convict the world of righteousness and Jesus is the Lord of Righteousness. There is definitely drawing of the world to Jesus being manifested here.

• Jesus saves “sinners” and not Children of the Devil.

Peter was called worse than that by Jesus. He was called Satan by Jesus and he's definitely saved, without a doubt.