An Article on free will

[Kermos]

That is EXACTLY what is wrong with reading the KJV bible. The English language has drifted since 1611 when “evil” also meant “trouble”. It survives in lesser meanings of “evil” …

EVIL: something that is very bad and harmful (Cambridge Dictionary)

• Drug addiction is one of today's great social evils.
• For the sake of long-term peace, the military option is the lesser of two evils (= the less unpleasant of two bad choices).

In Isaiah 45:7, God announces two pairs of opposites to drive home the conclusion that God does “all things” (the implication is that God does “A” and “B” and everything in between).

• “Light” and “darkness”
• “peace” and “evil”

… but “evil” (as trouble) WAS the opposite of peace, however the word “evil” in English now seldom has that connotation. So one must either learn the 1611 definitions and use the KJV or embrace the NKJV and read Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these [things].'

Hello @atpollard,

I hear the Word of God expressing the concept of "evil" based on the Hebrew word רָע (Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') -- Evil, bad, wicked, harmful, unpleasant) in Isaiah 45:7.

In Isaiah 45:7, the translation you used has the word "calamity", but the Hebrew source word for "calamity" is the same Hebrew source word for "evil" in the translation of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17).

The Hebrew source word is רָע (Strong's Hebrew: 7451. רָע (ra') -- Evil, bad, wicked, harmful, unpleasant); therefore, the English word in Isaiah 45:7 must be the word "evil".

Since Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), then God remains good even when God creates evil.

The translational inconsistency that you presented between Isaiah 45:7 and Genesis 2:17 is evil.

The Word of God is:

​

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I, YHWH, do all these things.​

(Isaiah 45:7)​

​

Were you aware of this?

Peace,
Kermos

 

[brightfame52]

John said they are children of the devil.

next fallacy

Yes to the children of the devil. He didnt say that to the children of God

 

[GodsGrace]

My condolences that you cannot understand the difference between a slave and a child.
Perhaps God will open your eyes and ears to grant you understanding.

In general, I do not respond to your posts because you are on “ignore” and I do not see them, not because I cannot answer your questions. I placed you on ignore because experience has shown that you do not listen to any of my answers, so they (like this post) are all wasted time and effort.

Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?


You do not reply to me because you cannot reply to my questions.
And why should I listen to your replies...I guess you mean ACCEPT your replies, if I do NOT agree with them?

Why don't YOU agree with ME?

It works both ways atpollard.

I'm not afraid to reply to any Calvinist doctrine because I know FOR SURE that it is wrong.

Apparently, YOU do not feel the same about replying to my verses...
which I plainly post and do not write books on them trying to explain them away.....


We are SLAVES of the one to whom we PRESENT OURSELVES...
Free Will.
Do you not believe Paul?



Do you not believe Jesus?
HE said:
John 8:41
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
John 8:44
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


JESUS is saying that those present are of their father.
So they must be the children.


As are those who present themselves to satan for obedience to him.

Both SLAVES and CHILDREN of satan is taught in the NT.

And, as usual, ad hominems fly,,,when no other method can be used to reply.

 

[atpollard]

The Word of God is:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I, YHWH, do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7)
Were you aware of this?

There are two pair of opposites in Isaiah 45:7

• KJV
  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD doall these things.
• NKJV
  I form the light and create darkness,
  I make peace and create calamity;
  I, the LORD, do all these things.’
• NLT
  I create the light and make the darkness.
  I send good times and bad times.
  I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
• NIV
  I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
• ESV
  I form light and create darkness;
  I make well-being and create calamity;
  I am the LORD, who does all these things.
• CSB
  “I form light and create darkness,
  I make success and create disaster;
  I am the LORD, who does all these things.
• NASB20
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Causing well-being and creating disaster;
  I am the LORD who does all these things.
• NASB95
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Causing well-being and creating calamity;
  I am the LORD who does all these.
• LSB
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Producing peace and creating calamity;
  I am Yahweh who does all these.
• NET
  I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
• RSV
  I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
• ASV
  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
• YLT
  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I amJehovah, doing all these things.'
• DBY
  forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
• WEB
  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

What does it say that every translation identifies the pairs of opposites.
Is “evil” the opposite of “peace” as the word “evil” is used in the 21st Century (compared to how the word was used in 1611 when one had “evil tidings” as bad news or “evil days” as times of trouble)?

 

[GodsGrace]

There are two pair of opposites in Isaiah 45:7

• KJV
  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD doall these things.
• NKJV
  I form the light and create darkness,
  I make peace and create calamity;
  I, the LORD, do all these things.’
• NLT
  I create the light and make the darkness.
  I send good times and bad times.
  I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
• NIV
  I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
• ESV
  I form light and create darkness;
  I make well-being and create calamity;
  I am the LORD, who does all these things.
• CSB
  “I form light and create darkness,
  I make success and create disaster;
  I am the LORD, who does all these things.
• NASB20
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Causing well-being and creating disaster;
  I am the LORD who does all these things.
• NASB95
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Causing well-being and creating calamity;
  I am the LORD who does all these.
• LSB
  The One forming light and creating darkness,
  Producing peace and creating calamity;
  I am Yahweh who does all these.
• NET
  I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
• RSV
  I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
• ASV
  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
• YLT
  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I amJehovah, doing all these things.'
• DBY
  forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
• WEB
  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

What does it say that every translation identifies the pairs of opposites.
Is “evil” the opposite of “peace” as the word “evil” is used in the 21st Century (compared to how the word was used in 1611 when one had “evil tidings” as bad news or “evil days” as times of trouble)?

I hope you read 9583.

If God decreed every action of man...
then, by Reformed/Calvinist theology...
He also necessarily created evil.

Difficult to accept...
so some like to say that God decreed everything man does,,,
but is not responsible for man's sinning.

A God of confusion.

 

[atpollard]

The translational inconsistency that you presented between Isaiah 45:7 and Genesis 2:17 is evil.

When you say the inconsistency is “evil”, do you mean:

• The inconsistency is bad.
• The inconsistency is wicked.
• The inconsistency is harmful.
• The inconsistency is unpleasant.

In Isaiah 45:7, [H7451] is the opposite of “peace”.
In Genesis 2:17, [H7451] is the opposite of “good”.
Context is your friend.

 

[GodsGrace]

When you say the inconsistency is “evil”, do you mean:

• The inconsistency is bad.
• The inconsistency is wicked.
• The inconsistency is harmful.
• The inconsistency is unpleasant.

In Isaiah 45:7, [H7451] is the opposite of “peace”.
In Genesis 2:17, [H7451] is the opposite of “good”.
Context is your friend.

The opposite of peace is still bad.
The opposite of good is still bad.

The NT teaches us that there is no darkness in God.

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


In God there is no darkness at all.

Unless a person can reconcile John with Isaiah...
we have a real conflict.

 

[ProDeo]

Not according to God …

Romans 9:15-16 [NKJV] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

That's about this life, not about afterlife, not about salvation.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is about salvation in afterlife.

Keep in mind also that salvation in afterlife is a NT subject, hardly an OT issue.

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge. He knows all the outcomes on beforehand.

Not according to God …

Correct since I am not into Calvinism.

Ephesians 1:3-14 [NKJV] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge, why is that so hard to understand ?

And note what is stated : He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world before A&E were created, before you and I were born and did nothing wrong, yet God knew every outcome already, His foreknowledge.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Amen.

John 6:44 [NKJV] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

When I read “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”, I understand that to mean that no person is able to come to Jesus unless God the Father draws them to Jesus.

When I read “and I will raise him up at the last day.”, I understand that to be a promise that the “him” that the Father drew to Jesus will be raised up to eternal life at the last day.

So if I am accused of believing that Jesus spoke the truth and “said what he meant and meant what he said”, then I am guilty as charged. However, I strongly disagree that it is a “wrong understanding”.

John 6:44 is about the unbelieving Jews, from verse 22 till the end of the chapter. A posts comes to mind, too long to include them in this post.

P

Post in thread 'Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will'

May 17, 2025

Show one scripture that says man has the ability to believe in Jesus, Jesus says man doesnt have the ability Jn 6:44

UNDERSTANDING JOHN 6:44

Actually I wanted to make this post my first new thread but I could not find how to do that.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. -- John 6:44

Written to and about the unbelieving Jews of His time.

Imagine if you were a believing Jew in His time in love with the law of Moses.

And then there comes a man who calls Himself the Son of God, who forgives...

• ProDeo

• 

 

[GodsGrace]

That's about this life, not about afterlife, not about salvation.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is about salvation in afterlife.

Keep in mind also that salvation in afterlife is a NT subject, hardly an OT issue.

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge. He knows all the outcomes on beforehand.



Correct since I am not into Calvinism.



He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge, why is that so hard to understand ?

And note what is stated : He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world before A&E were created, before you and I were born and did nothing wrong, yet God knew every outcome already, His foreknowledge.



Amen.



John 6:44 is about the unbelieving Jews, from verse 22 till the end of the chapter. A posts comes to mind, too long to include them in this post.

P

Post in thread 'Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will'

May 17, 2025

Show one scripture that says man has the ability to believe in Jesus, Jesus says man doesnt have the ability Jn 6:44

UNDERSTANDING JOHN 6:44

Actually I wanted to make this post my first new thread but I could not find how to do that.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. -- John 6:44

Written to and about the unbelieving Jews of His time.

Imagine if you were a believing Jew in His time in love with the law of Moses.

And then there comes a man who calls Himself the Son of God, who forgives...

• ProDeo

• 

ProDeo...
John 6:44 is so easy to understand...
I've posted on it many many times.

But it keeps coming up because,,,why HEAR what the NT teaches?
Better to HEAR what John Calvin taught.

Yes. You should start a thread on it. Wish I had the time to keep after a thread.
If you do,,,please tag me in.

 

[atpollard]

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge. He knows all the outcomes on beforehand.

Predestination is about God's foreknowledge, why is that so hard to understand ?

... according to the good pleasure of His will - Ephesians 1:4
... according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself - Ephesians 1:9
... according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will - Ephesians 1:11

That is God's foreknowledge and it is NOT about God knowing what we will do before we do it, it is about God knowing what HE will do according to His "purpose", "good pleasure", and "will" ... all "in Himself", not based on our actions.

There is nothing "hard to understand" about it ... you simply refuse to accept that GOD is GOD and you are not in control of your salvation. As the Apostle PAUL said (in the NT) of our salvation: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

PS: That is not "Calvinism", that is just "Gospel" (good news) ...

• salvation is not about our goodness, it is about God's mercy.
• salvation is not about our faithfulness, it is about God's trustworthiness.

... Methodists call it "prevenient grace" (God's power to empower).

 

[Kermos]

Excellent question.

May your post be unanswered by our Calvinist / Reformed friends, allow me THE answer.

God certainly can, by taken away His creatures free will (or more simply their will) making them robots always pleasing Him.

With fake love as a result.

Hello again, @ProDeo,

Since you bring up related topic, then let's continue with where we left off in this thread on the same topic with a few paragraphs of interlude, here.

@GodsGrace, this post is also to you since you issued your agreement with @ProDeo's heart treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) as per your "Like".

You are very brazen with your "With fake love as a result" since Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

The Word of God is “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), yet not one of the creation can love even as I have loved you apart from Christ (John 15:5), and I believe my Lord and God Jesus Christ (John 20:28).

Since you call God's love your "fake love", then you are left with your lust being your motivation to force yourself upon God by your way of free-will choosing God, and James had a thing or two to say about lust. Behold, the difference between human lust and divine love.

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will, see recent post #9,570 in this thread, so free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Thus concludes the interlude, and now back to God is the Potter and we are the clay.

@Kermos

Romans 9 has to be in sync what Paul said in Romans 1:28-32, key verse 24, the reprobate God uses for His own purpose, glory.

Rom 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent.

And pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time.

And, Romans 9 has to be in sync with Genesis 1:1, so all of Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:28-32 and Romans 1:24 and Romans 1:20 and Romans 1:5-7 must sync in the Truth (John 14:6) that Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote in Romans chapter 9.

God's Sovereign control over Jew and Gentile (Romans 1:5-7), even over reprobates (Romans 1:24) as you put it, reveals that God sovereignly controls the entirety of His creation (Genesis 1:1) as the Potter who prepared beforehand vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), and Holy Scripture reveals further that vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), including pharaoh (Romans 9:17), are not prepared beforehand to be vessels of mercy.

You wrote "A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent" by which you convey that you wholeheartedly believe that "A person (pharaoh included) is a vessel of mercy before the person is a vessel of wrath having exhausted God's enduring patience with a zillion of chances to repent"; therefore, you disbelieve:

• "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as seed" (Romans 9:8) and
• "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13) and
• "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men" (Romans 5:12) and "many died through one man's trespass" (Romans 5:15) and climacticly
• "No one is good except God alone (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18, see also Romans 3:12)) thus a person is an evil vessel of wrath as the default state of being apart from God and the only Way (John 14:6) for a person to become a vessel of mercy is caused by Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6) - the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12/2)!

Also, you wrote "pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time." which requires deeper examination:

​

You wrote "pharaoh had many chances", but pharaoh did not choose God.​

​

You wrote "he saw (experienced) God's miracles" - in like fashion free-willians have the Holy Scripture in their hands, but pharaoh did not choose God.​

​

You wrote "he hardened his heart every time" (both he and his referring to pharaoh), yet your thoughts starkly contrast against Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul writing that God hardened pharaoh's heart with "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:17-18) - in Romans 9 which is the topic of conversation:​

​

You do the work that you do, that is, destructively downgrading the Sovereign Holy God identified in (Romans 9:18-23) as per your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21), at your own peril!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN POTTER!!!

 

[atpollard]

John 6:44 is about the unbelieving Jews, from verse 22 till the end of the chapter. A posts comes to mind, too long to include them in this post.

No exegesis will EVER convince me that when Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”, that what Jesus REALLY MEANT was "EVERY person without exception is not only able to come to Jesus, but will come to Jesus and be forced to choose to accept or reject their salvation using their libertine free will."

I will just ask this:
If the conversation was just for "unbelieving Jews", then why did the Apostle John include it in a Gospel written in AD 90 (in Greek) to a predominantly gentile Church to provide everything that they needed "to believe" and be saved (the stated purpose of John's Gospel)?

 

[civic]

Yes to the children of the devil. He didnt say that to the children of God

they were formerly children of the devil, children of wrath who served the god of this world satan/devil who kept them deceived.

 

[civic]

No exegesis will EVER convince me that when Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”, that what Jesus REALLY MEANT was "EVERY person without exception is not only able to come to Jesus, but will come to Jesus and be forced to choose to accept or reject their salvation using their libertine free will."

I will just ask this:
If the conversation was just for "unbelieving Jews", then why did the Apostle John include it in a Gospel written in AD 90 (in Greek) to a predominantly gentile Church to provide everything that they needed "to believe" and be saved (the stated purpose of John's Gospel)?

John 6:44 was during His present time of His earthly ministry and John 12:32 was His post earthly ministry when all would be drawn to Him.

Context is always king when discussing pre and post Resurrection.

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

Let us test your theory. I have removed you from ignore to attempt to communicate. Let us see if you respond to what I actually say, or ignore what I say.

Do you not believe Jesus?
HE said:
John 8:41
41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
John 8:44
44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I believe Jesus.
So let us discuss THEM:

Speaking of the people that Jesus said "You are of your father the devil".

• Were they Disciples of Jesus that he was correcting or enemies of God?
• Were they future "Children of God" that were currently "slaves to sin" and waiting to be set free?
• Were they reprobates (hardened enemies of God) that had "grieved the Holy Spirit" by seeing the work of God and proclaiming it the work of satan knowing that to be false?

Tell me, who were they.

 

[atpollard]

John 6:44 was during His present time of His earthly ministry and John 12:32 was His post earthly ministry when all would be drawn to Him.

Context is always king when discussing pre and post Resurrection.

Why did John 12:32 FAIL?

Itzcoatl (founder of the Aztec Empire) died in 1440 ... about 50 years before the Gospel reached the Americas with Columbus ... so he sacrificed living victims to his winged snake-god without any opportunity to choose Jesus as his savior. Jesus was "lifted up" 1400 years earlier but all men (like Itzcoatl) were not drawn.

John 12:32 cannot mean "all men without exception" will be drawn to Jesus to choose to accept or reject him since that was a FALSE PROPHESY! It MUST mean something else.

(I personally lean towards Revelation 5:9 as the explanation and fulfillment: [redeemed] "Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" ... all without distinction ... or expressed in the negative in Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11)

 

[civic]

Why did John 12:32 FAIL?

Itzcoatl (founder of the Aztec Empire) died in 1440 ... about 50 years before the Gospel reached the Americas with Columbus ... so he sacrificed living victims to his winged snake-god without any opportunity to choose Jesus as his savior. Jesus was "lifted up" 1400 years earlier but all men (like Itzcoatl) were not drawn.

John 12:32 cannot mean "all men without exception" will be drawn to Jesus to choose to accept or reject him since that was a FALSE PROPHESY! It MUST mean something else.

(I personally lean towards Revelation 5:9 as the explanation and fulfillment: [redeemed] "Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" ... all without distinction ... or expressed in the negative in Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11)

It didn't fail all men are drawn but not all come to faith and repentance.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello again, @ProDeo,

Since you bring up related topic, then let's continue with where we left off in this thread on the same topic with a few paragraphs of interlude, here.

@GodsGrace, this post is also to you since you issued your agreement with @ProDeo's heart treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21) as per your "Like".

You are very brazen with your "With fake love as a result" since Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love).

Since you tagged me in , I'll reply to the above.
I would, however, also like a reply to my question:
If God is sovereign (the way Calvinists THINK sovereignty means)
and God wishes to save everyone...
they WHY is not everyone saved?
1 Timothy 2:4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Maybe Paul, who learned from Jesus, is lying?
Maybe God is unable to save everyone?


As to love...
What is there to say Kermos?
Do you love anyone?
Do you want them to love you back?
Do you give them a pill that makes them love you?
Would that be true love?
No.

Real love is when someone loves you of their own free will.
If you have to give them a pill to love you,,,then they do not really love you, do they?

God does not want robotic persons to "love" Him.
If YOU desire real love...
imagine how MUCH MORE God desires real love.

Simple enough to understand.
No scripture required.

The Word of God is “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), yet not one of the creation can love even as I have loved you apart from Christ (John 15:5), and I believe my Lord and God Jesus Christ (John 20:28).

Since you call God's love your "fake love", then you are left with your lust being your motivation to force yourself upon God by your way of free-will choosing God, and James had a thing or two to say about lust. Behold, the difference between human lust and divine love.

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will, see recent post #9,570 in this thread, so free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Thus concludes the interlude, and now back to God is the Potter and we are the clay.



And, Romans 9 has to be in sync with Genesis 1:1, so all of Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:28-32 and Romans 1:24 and Romans 1:20 and Romans 1:5-7 must sync in the Truth (John 14:6) that Holy Spirit inspired Paul wrote in Romans chapter 9.

God's Sovereign control over Jew and Gentile (Romans 1:5-7), even over reprobates (Romans 1:24) as you put it, reveals that God sovereignly controls the entirety of His creation (Genesis 1:1) as the Potter who prepared beforehand vessels of mercy (Romans 9:23), and Holy Scripture reveals further that vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22), including pharaoh (Romans 9:17), are not prepared beforehand to be vessels of mercy.

You wrote "A person (pharaoh included) does not become a reprobate or vessel of wrath easily, only after God's enduring patience after having zillion of chances to repent" by which you convey that you wholeheartedly believe that "A person (pharaoh included) is a vessel of mercy before the person is a vessel of wrath having exhausted God's enduring patience with a zillion of chances to repent"; therefore, you disbelieve:

• "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as seed" (Romans 9:8) and
• "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'" (Romans 9:11-13) and
• "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men" (Romans 5:12) and "many died through one man's trespass" (Romans 5:15) and climacticly
• "No one is good except God alone (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18, see also Romans 3:12)) thus a person is an evil vessel of wrath as the default state of being apart from God and the only Way (John 14:6) for a person to become a vessel of mercy is caused by Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except because of Me" (John 14:6) - the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12/2)!

Also, you wrote "pharaoh had many chances, he saw (experienced) God's miracles but hardened his heart every time." which requires deeper examination:

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You wrote "pharaoh had many chances", but pharaoh did not choose God.​

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You wrote "he saw (experienced) God's miracles" - in like fashion free-willians have the Holy Scripture in their hands, but pharaoh did not choose God.​

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You wrote "he hardened his heart every time" (both he and his referring to pharaoh), yet your thoughts starkly contrast against Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul writing that God hardened pharaoh's heart with "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:17-18) - in Romans 9 which is the topic of conversation:​

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You do the work that you do, that is, destructively downgrading the Sovereign Holy God identified in (Romans 9:18-23) as per your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19, Matthew 6:21), at your own peril!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN POTTER!!!

Pharaoh also hardened his own heart.
God just abandons us at a certain point,,,just as it states in Romans 1.

But I'm not here to discuss this.
But @ProDeo is right, of course.

 

[brightfame52]

they were formerly children of the devil, children of wrath who served the god of this world satan/devil who kept them deceived.

Never were children of the devil

 

[GodsGrace]

Let us test your theory. I have removed you from ignore to attempt to communicate. Let us see if you respond to what I actually say, or ignore what I say.

I believe Jesus.
So let us discuss THEM:

Speaking of the people that Jesus said "You are of your father the devil".

• Were they Disciples of Jesus that he was correcting or enemies of God?
• Were they future "Children of God" that were currently "slaves to sin" and waiting to be set free?
• Were they reprobates (hardened enemies of God) that had "grieved the Holy Spirit" by seeing the work of God and proclaiming it the work of satan knowing that to be false?

Tell me, who were they.

This is who they were:

John 8:44
Jesus was speaking to disciples who were following Him.
But there were pharisees present that were asking HIm questions.
To answer specifically to your question, I'd say number 3.

But I do want to add this:
The pharisees were hardened against the teachings of Jesus.

Also,

Verse 47 states the following:
John 8:47
47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

If a person HEARS the words of God... he IS of God.
if a person does NOT hear the words of God,,,it's because he is NOT of God.

There are only two states in salvation..
either a person is saved
or he is not.

If a person is saved he hears the words of God, just as Jesus stated here and elsewhere in John.
If a person is not saved he is not of God.

If a person is not of God...
to whom does that person belong?

Is there a neutral state?

Romans 6:16 states that we are slaves of the one to whom we present ourselves.

This is my understanding of salvation economy.

PS Not sure which "theory" of mine you're alluding to.
I didn't go back and check...