civic
Well-known member
Spot on brother
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Nothing there about being unable
That idea must be read into the verse
Again
John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)
This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.
Believe. Faith is put as a moral act or work. The work of God is to believe. Faith includes all the works which God requires. The Jews’ question contemplates numerous works. Jesus’ answer directs them to one work. Canon Westcott justly observes that “this simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works.”11 Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 2; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 148–149.
The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God, is the work of God; but that the truest way of working the work of God is to believe on Him whom He hath sent.11 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 761.
you assume your interpretation
Did anyone tell us who the "you" is? Skipped right over it
So your saved by a work?
brightfame52
Well-known member
lol Like you just cherry picked some verses to force them to say something they dont say.
Your total inability to explain why you came to that conclusion clearly shows to everyone that it's you who is forcing them to say something they don't say.
Pot...pot....
In "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13), the word "received" is accurately translated from ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambanó - to take, receive), and, indeed, "received" is Aorist and active grammatically.
The word "received" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".
The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man".
The grammatical sense of the word "received" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24)!
Your heart makes false statements about God. Freewill is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!!
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Not yet. Avoided the question and quoted a bunch of other stuff.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Dont need no abiity, it just didnt say what the poster said
I see that the Total Inability doctrine of TULIP extends right into the Calvinist's Total Inability to justify their pagan beliefs.
I'm going to propose a rewrite of TULIP starting with T as Calvinist's Total Inability to justify their pagan beliefs.
brightfame52
Well-known member
According to Jesus does man have the ability to come to Him without Divine Intervention ? Jn 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but you're very confused. A work of faith IS NOT the same as seeking to be saved by the works of the law.
I believe you can find enlightenment by going to my new thread, "Men Do Have a Certain Work"
A work of faith is not a work? Work does not mean work?
Rockson
Well-known member
Well maybe TULIP when it applies to Calvinism can mean
Truly
Undermining
Love's
Integrity
Perpetually
Or as long as one chooses to stay as a Calvinist forever they're doing it perpetually. And I don't say that as a personal put down but they do need to step back and recognize that's what they're doing. Hopefully the P of this they'll cast off of their lives and that none of this can apply to them. Old things can pass away and all things can become new! Let's hope at least.
So is the word of Rockson - with a complete absence of the Word of God. Let's visit the post to which you replied that demonstrates your folly of speaking against the Word of God.
In your opening paragraph, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post), your heart's treasure speaks against the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ who conclusively conveys that man is incapable of choosing the Righteous Lord Jesus Christ with “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?” (Luke 12:57). You are in error with your free-willian philosophy.
While still in your opening paragraph, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post), your heart's treasure purported that man works faith/belief to point at Righteous Lord Jesus Christ, yet the Christ of us Christians lovingly declares "This is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, man does not work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus, but God does work faith/belief inside of man thus causing man to believe in Lord Jesus (John 6:28-29). You are in error with your free-willian philosophy.
Well, @Ray and @Rockson (due to your Like reaction of Ray's post) , free-will is entirely absent from 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Joshua 24:14-15, so your heart adds free-will in the Holy Scripture.
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
The New Testament Epistles, such as 1 Timothy and 2 Peter, are specifically written to believers in Jesus Christ, but the world misinterprets and adds to the Epistles.
The Apostle Paul wrote:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth
(1 Timothy 2:3-4)
Take note of "desires all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4.
Since God always gets that which God desires (1 Timothy 2:4) for it is written of God that "what His soul desires, that He does" (Job 23:13), then the "all men". After all, it is written of God that “no purpose of Yours can be thwarted” (Job 42:2); therefore, only persons that God chooses for salvation are saved from the wrath of God.
The "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:4 cannot be everyone everywhere in all time as per your heart's treasure because that would make God weak and incapable because you are saying that someone snatches God's chosen persons out of God's Hand, yet the Word of God declares "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28), so the Truth (John 14:6) is that Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!
When you convey that "any" is God's choosing of everyone everywhere in all time inside of "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), then you end up with the unbiblical concept of everyone everywhere in all time having a first state of being as chosen in the state of salvation, also known as universalism.
The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals
The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).
The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).
The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).
The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).
The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh is hostile against God and the flesh cannot please God with "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).
THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A FREE-WILL CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).
The concepts in the 1 Timothy 2:4 section apply to 2 Peter 3:9 as well.
The Hebrew Word For "Choose" And It's Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong's Number 977
Beholding Joshua 24:15
Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:
IF condition THEN predicate
Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.
IF you_do_this that_will_happen
Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).
A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.
Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.
Disagreeable does not mean choose.
In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).
Finaly, Joshua states "[b[but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD[/b[", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).
A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.
There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15, so this verse is not a proof text free-will, in fact, free-will is nonsense according to the Word of God who says:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
We Christians are blessed of God to be chosen by Lord Jesus without us being required to do any kind of work because the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)!
civic
Well-known member
Great and honest theologians you referenced- Giants/ Stalwart's of the faith.
Rockson
Well-known member
A work of faith is not the same as seeking to be saved by keeping the works of the law.
The word work can have different meanings and you can't force and impose your own definition on the word.....GET THE CONTEXT.
If you heard someone say they ran with an idea.....do you demand and insist that has to mean they got their running shoes on and physically ran down the street? Would you say but doesn't run mean run? Of course! But can't it be talking about two entirely different things in how they apply? I'm confident you truly can understand that.
John 6 tells us we are to work the work of God....and that work that WE ARE TO DO is to choose to believe in him. It is not the same work as seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. You may buck at this and seek to get around it but you cannot get around what it says in John 6 on this whole matter. See my thread, "Men Do Have a Certain Work" It' not after the law but by faith.
It's not? What is it and do you find that phrase in scripture somewhere?
Paul says just the opposite. "To those who work not"
brightfame52
Well-known member
Actually it is, if you condition your salvation on your natural faith, being unregenerate, then its a work of the law that aught to be done Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Its one of the weightier matters of the Law
